Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Ferndale Police Department problem

  1. #1
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    The person this involves has asked me not to mention his name publicly. However, that is not going to stop me from mentioning the fact it happened.

    He's a Ferndale resident. He went to the FPD to get a permit to purchase. The secretary told him he'd have to come back more than a day later to pick it up.

    Act 372 of 1927 Sec 2 (3) states:

    The commissioner or chief of police of a city, township, or village police department that issues licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols, or his or her duly authorized deputy, or the sheriff or his or her duly authorized deputy, in the parts of a county not included within a city, township, or village having an organized police department, in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols to qualified applicants residing within the city, village, township, or county, as applicable unless he or she has probable cause to believe that the applicant would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would violate a law of this or another state or of the United States. An applicant is qualified if all of the following circumstances exist:
    So the secretary is in violation of the law, if not the entire department if this is a policy. According to the story of the person this involves, she had more than enough time to finish the process, and simply didn't.

    He is taking his own course of action with this, and I am helping to make sure that he resolves it properly. However, what fun would it be if no one else had the opportunity to write, call, or email the department? PLEASE let them know that this is unacceptable, and must be fixed immediately.

    This is their contact info.

    Ferndale Police Department
    Michael P. Kitchen, Chief of Police
    310 East Nine Mile Road
    Ferndale, Michigan, 48220
    248-541-3650

    Chief Kitchen's email

    mkitchen@ferndalepolice.org

    Captain's Collins email

    tcollins@ferndalepolice.org

    and their main page of their web site.

    http://www.ferndalepolice.org/





    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Macomb County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,865

    Post imported post

    Well. For one where in the snip it you posted say it must be completed in 24 hours? Or in any specific time frame at that? Can a Ferndale resident go to another city PD to get their permit? If they could and you need it that quick get in other city quickly. I do find it interesting they even said that unless it was like at the end of the day and they didnt have enough time. They will turn you away to come back another day if they dont have time to complete the request in Warren.

    Mike

  3. #3
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    It takes under 10 minutes if the secretary isn't backlogged like crazy.

    When evil creamsicle and I went to get his permit, we were in and out in approximately 8 minutes, test included. As I recall, the secretary was working on other things at the same time she was taking care of us. There really isn't much to it.

    So taking that into consideration, and considering the fact she wasn't busy, there are no excuses. Due speed and diligence is not jerking someone around out of laziness or anti gun sentiment, or whatever reason they might have over there for causing people to have to wait unlawfully for permits.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Macomb County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,865

    Post imported post

    Michigander wrote:
    It takes under 10 minutes if the secretary isn't backlogged like crazy.

    When evil creamsicle and I went to get his permit, we were in and out in approximately 8 minutes, test included. As I recall, the secretary was working on other things at the same time she was taking care of us. There really isn't much to it.

    So taking that into consideration, and considering the fact she wasn't busy, there are no excuses. Due speed and diligence is not jerking someone around out of laziness or anti gun sentiment, or whatever reason they might have over there for causing people to have to wait unlawfully for permits.
    I'm not disputing that it normally takes no time to get a permit. You stated:

    Michigander wrote:
    So the secretary is in violation of the law, if not the entire department if this is a policy. According to the story of the person this involves, she had more than enough time to finish the process, and simply didn't.
    Show me where exactly they are in violation. I do agree it is appalling that they are doing that but they are not in violation of anything from my point of view.

    Mike

  5. #5
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    "Due speed and diligence" may seem like unclear language, but it isn't.

    Some definitions of diligence from the web.

    Diligence
    is a zealous and careful nature in one's actions and work. Decisive work ethic. Budgeting one's time; monitoring one's own activities to guard against laziness. Putting forth full concentration in one's work. Diligence is usually promoted in work places. It is one of the seven Holy Virtues.


    conscientiousness in paying proper attention to a task; giving the degree of care required in a given situation

    willingness or ability to work steadily and carefully




    I'd go and look up definitions for due and speed, but I don't think that anyone is going to be confused by those terms.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Hilton Head, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    524

    Post imported post

    You might not be happy it took a little longer than you're accustomed to, but I highly doubt you'll be able to prove it took so long as to be a violation of the law. If you had to wait a month, you might have a legitimate beef.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    I'll say it again. Demonstrate how an illegal 5 day waiting period is within the boundaries of due speed and diligence.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Police State, USA
    Posts
    1,270

    Post imported post

    Michigander wrote:
    I'll say it again. Demonstrate how an illegal 5 day waiting period is within the boundaries of due speed and diligence.
    Its not. That's like saying "well, I'll only pay $15 for this $20 item because 'due payment' is so vague."

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Farmington Hills, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    538

    Post imported post

    IMO, the fact that MOST other PD's can complete a LTP in under 30 minutes demonstrates that due speed and diligence for an LTP is under 30 minutes.


  10. #10
    Regular Member SlowDog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Redford, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    424

    Post imported post

    A few months back I walked into Redford PD...took test as they looked me up on Puter....& out the door in about 10-12 minutes

    Only two have offered their lives for you. A Soldier and Jesus....

  11. #11
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    Took my dad 15 min in VB County just yesterday.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  12. #12
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    I was thinking, this also seems to be ANOTHER blatant attempt by Ferndale to defy preemption.

    Michigan law has no stipulation to allow a PD's choice waiting period, but it does specify that permits must be issued with due speed and diligence, and the preemption law explicitly prohibits city governments from enacting any rule more restrictive than state law.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Police State, USA
    Posts
    1,270

    Post imported post

    well... it certainly seems an infringement on preemption to me...

  14. #14
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,101

    Post imported post

    Might as well send a letter to Center Line PD too.

    Before I had my CPL, it took me 10 days to get my first PP.

    Yep, Ten days.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  15. #15
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SE, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,336

    Post imported post

    I have started some City Ordinances Reviews in my "dubious spare time". I will post the Ferndale Information here, as this should be of concern as well ( I could not find these as being repealed). I have listed in BOLD TEXT where I believe there are issues:

    CHAPTER II. GENERAL POWERS
    Section 2. [General powers]. The City shall have power:
    ...
    (34) To regulate or prohibit the use, selling, storing and transportation of firearms and fireworks.
    Analysis: MI 1990 Preemption Law "Trumps" this ordinance text, it should be repealed.


    Sec. 12-136. Possession or concealment of weapons.

    (a) Authorization. This section is enacted pursuant to the city's general police power, authority granted to cities by Article 7, § 22 of the Michigan Constitution; the Home Rule Cities Act, MCL 117.1 et seq., as amended; and Chapter II, § 2(4) of the Ferndale Charter to make and enforce ordinances and resolutions for the care, protection, control and management of buildings owned by and/or controlled by the city located within the city corporate limits.

    (b) Purpose. The purpose of this section is to promote the public health, safety and general welfare of the citizens of the city while at certain buildings belonging to the city. The issue of safety at city public buildings is important not only to the employees of the city but also to all those who have business or personal reasons to visit city buildings.

    (c) Definitions. When used in this section, the following words, terms and phrases, and their derivations shall have the meanings ascribed to them in this section, except where the context clearly indicates a different meaning: Concealment means to intentionally hide, put out of sight, disguise, or do any other act to keep a weapon out of sight and to avoid its being discovered or observed. Possession means carrying or having control over a weapon with knowledge of its presence. Weapon means and shall include a loaded or unloaded firearm that is 30 inches or less in length, or a loaded or unloaded firearm that by its construction and appearance conceals it as a firearm from which a dangerous projectile may be propelled by an explosive, or by gas or air. Weapon shall also include a dagger, dirk, razor, stiletto or knife having a blade over three inches in length.

    (d) Possession or concealment of weapon prohibited.
    (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsections (2) and (3), possession or concealment of a weapon shall be prohibited in all buildings owned and/or controlled by the city and located in the city including: city hall, police station, fire stations, DPW administrative office, animal shelter building, library, Gerry Kulick Community Center, summer youth recreation building while under city control and DPW water building.

    (2) Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, any state, federal or local law enforcement officer, city auxiliary police officer and retired police officer may possess or conceal a weapon while at the public buildings owned and/or controlled by the city which are identified in section (d)(1).

    (3) Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, a person may, while complying with any gun registration requirements, while participating in a city gun buy-back program or turning in a weapon to the city for disposal or destruction, possess an unloaded weapon at the particular public building in connection with such activity.

    (e) Signs. The city shall post and maintain signs at all public entrances to the public buildings owned and/or controlled by the city which are identified in section (d)(1) notifying the public that possession or concealment of weapons in those public places is prohibited. The sign shall have lettering that is distinct, contrasting to the background and easily read, letters shall have a minimum height of 3/4-inch and shall be posted in English and such other language(s) as the city clerk shall deem appropriate.

    (f) Violations and penalties. Any person who possesses or conceals a weapon in public buildings owned and/or controlled by the city which is identified in section (d)(1) shall be responsible for a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than $500.00 and/or 90 days in jail, or both. (Ord. No. 945, Pt. I, 11-12-01)
    Analysis: MI 1990 Preemption Law "Trumps" this ordinance text, it should be repealed. The City of Ferndale already lost a lawsuit on this.




    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

  16. #16
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    Yep that is unenforceable according to preemption.... so they should remove it.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  17. #17
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    I've taken the work out of it!

    This is a letter I wrote up that anyone who wants to can feel free to print off, or copy paste and email to the chief. Read it through and edit it as you want to.

    Remember, do NOT give them, or any other hostile PD your phone number. That gives them a means to contact you off the record. Make sure if they respond to you it's typed.

    I'm going to post 2 versions. Email, and formal letter. The formal letter version is first.


    From:
    Your name here
    Your address here
    2nd line of address

    To:
    Ferndale Police Department
    Michael P. Kitchen, Chief of Police
    310 East Nine Mile Road
    Ferndale, Michigan, 48220



    Dear Chief Kitchen
    It has recently come to my attention that your department has been arbitrarily enforcing a 5 day waiting period with the issuance of pistol purchase permits, in some cases discriminating against various people while doing others the “favor” of issuing them sooner.

    Michigan law very clearly states that pistol purchase permits must be issued with “due speed and diligence”. The pertinent portion of this law is below for easy reading.

    FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
    Act 372 of 1927
    3) The commissioner or chief of police of a city, township, or village police department that issues licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols, or his or her duly authorized deputy, or the sheriff or his or her duly authorized deputy, in the parts of a county not included within a city, township, or village having an organized police department, in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols to qualified applicants residing within the city, village, township, or county, as applicable unless he or she has probable cause to believe that the applicant would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would violate a law of this or another state or of the United States.

    Some might argue that “due speed and diligence” is too vague of a phrase, and allows this waiting period. Any definition of diligence that I have found which is usable in this context causes a much different conclusion to be reached. Here are several Internet definitions of “diligence”.

    -Conscientiousness in paying proper attention to a task; giving the degree of care required in a given situation

    -Persevering application

    -The attention and care legally expected or required of a person (as a party to a contract)

    -Earnest and persistent application to an undertaking; steady effort; assiduity.


    -Attentive care; heedfulness.

    So, “diligence” can essentially be defined as being completely devoted to finishing a task as quickly and well as possible, but it can’t be reasonably compared to making someone wait in blatant defiance to state law.



    One could also debate the term “due”. After all, what is “due” to a permit seeker? Well, there is no state law providing for a waiting period, and the state firearm preemption law (which Ferndale has been put in its place by before) prohibits cities from having firearm ordinances or policies more restrictive than state law. So it would be accurate to say that diligent compliance with the terms of the pistol registration process are due from PD’s to permit seekers, nothing more, and nothing less. State law mandates it.



    Your department, if not minimally your secretaries who register pistols, is/are clearly in violation of the law, and it needs to stop. Please have me informed in writing as soon as possible how you, or someone you delegate the resolution of this problem to has resolved this problem permanently.



    If you have any legal questions, please contact my lawyer, Dean Greenblatt. His phone number is 248 644 8760.

    Very sincerely,






    (hand signed here)





    Your name here
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    And now for the email version






    Dear Chief Kitchen
    It has recently come to my attention that your department has been arbitrarily enforcing a 5 day waiting period with the issuance of pistol purchase permits, in some cases discriminating against various people while doing others the “favor” of issuing them sooner.

    Michigan law very clearly states that pistol purchase permits must be issued with “due speed and diligence”. The pertinent portion of this law is below for easy reading.

    FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
    Act 372 of 1927
    3) The commissioner or chief of police of a city, township, or village police department that issues licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols, or his or her duly authorized deputy, or the sheriff or his or her duly authorized deputy, in the parts of a county not included within a city, township, or village having an organized police department, in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols to qualified applicants residing within the city, village, township, or county, as applicable unless he or she has probable cause to believe that the applicant would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would violate a law of this or another state or of the United States.

    Some might argue that “due speed and diligence” is too vague of a phrase, and allows this waiting period. Any definition of diligence that I have found which is usable in this context causes a much different conclusion to be reached. Here are several Internet definitions of “diligence”.

    -Conscientiousness in paying proper attention to a task; giving the degree of care required in a given situation

    -Persevering application

    -The attention and care legally expected or required of a person (as a party to a contract)

    -Earnest and persistent application to an undertaking; steady effort; assiduity.


    -Attentive care; heedfulness.

    So, “diligence” can essentially be defined as being completely devoted to finishing a task as quickly and well as possible, but it can’t be reasonably compared to making someone wait in blatant defiance to state law.



    One could also debate the term “due”. After all, what is “due” to a permit seeker? Well, there is no state law providing for a waiting period, and the state firearm preemption law (which Ferndale has been put in its place by before) prohibits cities from having firearm ordinances or policies more restrictive than state law. So it would be accurate to say that diligent compliance with the terms of the pistol registration process are due from PD’s to permit seekers, nothing more, and nothing less. State law mandates it.



    Your department, if not minimally your secretaries who register pistols, is/are clearly in violation of the law, and it needs to stop. Please inform me via email as soon as possible how you, or someone you delegate the resolution of this problem to has resolved this problem permanently.



    If you have any legal questions, please contact my lawyer, Dean Greenblatt. His phone number is 248 644 8760.

    Very sincerely,


    Your name here


    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •