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Thread: PRIVACY IS PREVENTING COMMUNICATION

  1. #1
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    Because the names and addresses of Permit holders are confidential, it is difficult to send information or organize support or opposition on legal and legislative issues.

    There may soon be a way of requesting various firearm retailers to consolidate their customer contact lists, (email contact information would be best), to that a master list can be created for dissemination of legal and legislative issues.

    I believe that the Connecticut Citizens Defense League is in a position to step up to the plate in this endeavor.

    I truly believe that other organizations including the NRA are not paying enough attention to the issues we face as handgun owners.

    The 2010 legislative session will soon be here and we need to organize and communicate on the issues that will surely be presented.

    The more successful we are with our issues the more you can expect the opposition to present theirs.

    There are organizations that will sell out our positions to get what they want.

    More on this will be posted in the future.

    Please, JOIN THE CONNECTICUT CITIZEN'S DEFENSE LEAGUE "CCDL" (it's free), if or no other reason that to have your email address on file so that you will receive important information regarding handgun issues in CT. Here is a link to their website http://www.ccdl.us


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    Great idea ED

    We at Hoffman's support this initiative 100%

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    I would like to thank Scott Hoffman for his comment and support for this idea.

    As owners of handguns regardless of whether or not we hold Permits to Carry, we need to have an some way of received specific information regarding what's going on in Connecticut.

    There is currently NO organization in Connecticut that gathers and disseminates timely legal or legislative ALERTS to those of us who own handguns and/or possess Permits to carry.

    My suggestion would be to retain an Attorney, (I have one in mind), who would enter intoanAttorney/Client relationship with each entity thatcurrently has an email list of clients or customers. Don't get me wrong, the attorney will expect to be compensated.

    The Attorney would guarantee each business or individual client who submits their list of email addresses that the information wouldNOT be distributed or shared with other clients. This would protect each email list owners commercial interest in their list, while allowing an entity like CCDL to disseminate non-commercial information to everyone on the combined list.

    I'm sure that this idea can be implemented if the email list owners are assured of the confidentiality of their information.

    With the Second Amendment changes expected from the courts and the guaranteed legislation that will be proposed in the legislature every time we are successful in gaining ground, I believe that it is crucial to have a way to communicate and exchange information.

    There are several groups and message board currently attempting to keep people informed, but again, there is NO way of keeping informed on the specific topics of handguns.

    For Scott Hoffman of Hoffman's Gun Center to support giving his client/customer list to this cause is a clear and straight forward reason for others with email lists to do likewise.

    Here is hoping that we can soon find a way to organize and constantly be informed.

    I have suggested this to Scott Wilson who is the President of CCDL and hope that the Board and members of CCDL will consider this concept.


    Pleasevisit www.ccdl.us and support the issues






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    I do not live in Connectiut so it shoulnd not involve me but this is about thw worst idea that I have ever heard in wanting businesses to share their email address list with a separate party no matter what the cause. This would be in a direct violation of their privacy guarantees when signing up for such a list. If I were to find out that one had shared my address with someone else I would be very angry with that company and do my best to have it removed from all other mailings.

    An alternative would be to provide the information to the companies and let them send it out if they are willing. Otherwise you are nothing but a spammer and should be treated like one.

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    TO PT111,

    I understand your concerns, and will not attempt to attack your opinions.

    So here is my response to your post:

    Several States have enacted laws that protect the privacy of gun owners and permit holders from anyone from getting a list for legal purposes.

    I agree in theory that the possession of firearms should NOT be public knowledge or provide provide government with a list of where to look at some point in the future.

    Mark my words, when and if the U.S. Supreme Court renders a decision in favor of the Second Amendment being the law of the land and not just Washington D.C., there will be a strong move by anti Second Amendment individuals and groups to find a way around the issue.

    Here in Connecticut there are over 150,000 individual Permit to Carry holders who have NO way of organizing or communicating on common handgun issues. And you can rest assured it there are that many permit holders, there are far more who own hang guns with permits.

    In the past two years, especially since the June 2008 Heller v. D.C. case, government agencies have been having skull sessions on what to do if the Second Amendment is incorporated to the states.

    I would prefer to see the NRA use their vast list of members to communicate information to state specific members on legal and legislative hand gun issues, but that does not seem to be their priority or concern.

    There is at lease one large organization here in Connecticut that has stated their intent to "BUTT HEADS" in upcoming legislative sessions. When I heard the statement, I immediately knew that positions of handgun owners rights and laws advocating open carry will be sold down the river in any negotiations about handgun rights. In other words, the large group in questionmay be willing to offer no opposition to a bad piece of legislation or support restrictive legislation regarding hand guns it they get what THEY want.

    Collectively as hand gun owners we need to be respected instead of treated like bottom feeders.

    A perfect example is the NRA training to qualify for state permits. The course is the Gold standard for most states and issuing authorities yet it does not have a STATE SPECIFIC module regarding laws and regulations.

    I do and will continue to strongly advocatethat existingemail lists be obtained from willing businessesand combined for hand gun advocacy as long as it is NOT available toany government agencyor used for commercial purposes.



  7. #7
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    Edward Peruta wrote:

    PT111 wrote:
    ....this is about thw worst idea that I have ever heard in wanting businesses to share their email address list with a separate party no matter what the cause. This would be in a direct violation of their privacy guarantees when signing up for such a list. If I were to find out that one had shared my address with someone else I would be very angry with that company and do my best to have it removed from all other mailings.

    An alternative would be to provide the information to the companies and let them send it out if they are willing. Otherwise you are nothing but a spammer and should be treated like one.

    I understand your concerns, and will not attempt to attack your opinions.

    So here is my response to your post:

    Several States have enacted laws that protect the privacy of gun owners and permit holders from anyone from getting a list for legal purposes.

    I agree in theory that the possession of firearms should NOT be public knowledge or provide provide government with a list of where to look at some point in the future.

    Mark my words, when and if the U.S. Supreme Court renders a decision in favor of the Second Amendment being the law of the land and not just Washington D.C., there will be a strong move by anti Second Amendment individuals and groups to find a way around the issue.

    Here in Connecticut there are over 150,000 individual Permit to Carry holders who have NO way of organizing or communicating on common handgun issues. And you can rest assured it there are that many permit holders, there are far more who own hang guns with permits.

    In the past two years, especially since the June 2008 Heller v. D.C. case, government agencies have been having skull sessions on what to do if the Second Amendment is incorporated to the states.

    I would prefer to see the NRA use their vast list of members to communicate information to state specific members on legal and legislative hand gun issues, but that does not seem to be their priority or concern.

    There is at lease one large organization here in Connecticut that has stated their intent to "BUTT HEADS" in upcoming legislative sessions. When I heard the statement, I immediately knew that positions of handgun owners rights and laws advocating open carry will be sold down the river in any negotiations about handgun rights. In other words, the large group in questionmay be willing to offer no opposition to a bad piece of legislation or support restrictive legislation regarding hand guns it they get what THEY want.

    Collectively as hand gun owners we need to be respected instead of treated like bottom feeders.

    A perfect example is the NRA training to qualify for state permits. The course is the Gold standard for most states and issuing authorities yet it does not have a STATE SPECIFIC module regarding laws and regulations.

    I do and will continue to strongly advocatethat existingemail lists be obtained from willing businessesand combined for hand gun advocacy as long as it is NOT available toany government agencyor used for commercial purposes.



    PT111 has cogent points in his post.

    And no one expects you to "attack" his opinion. More appropriately, you should respond to his points. And you have failed to do so in any effective manner. All I can see is rationalizing and excuse-making.

    It's clear that you feel entitled to breach two-party condidentiality agreements--simply because you feel a higher purpose will be served.

    That is a foolish dangerous line of thinking, EP.

    If you want people's e-mail or other contact information, you must ask for permission to get it.

    I agree with PT111. Bad idea. Very bad idea.




  8. #8
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    To Hank T
    State Researcher

    I will speculate for discussions sake that by posting 4667 times, you have acquired some type of title or qualification to be a “State Researcher” on this forum.

    If the title is provided based on experience researching firearms issues in Connecticut, it would be nice to know who you are in the real world and not just on the internet.

    I currently spend a great deal of time doing research on various topics, and have spent the last two years specializing in Firearm laws in Connecticut. I am guided only by the law and common sense when it comes to offering advice and recommendations to people looking for answers.

    You will see that I post under my real name and do not have sleepless nights or fear of people know what I think or say.

    For the record, information provided to, (or collected by), a business or organization does not automatically create a confidentially agreement unless there is a two party mutual agreement betweenboth parties.

    I do research, mostly on legal topics for attorneys and their clients. I even receive complements for my research from time to time.

    I’m known to effectively think outside the box and find solutions to various problems.

    But I reside in Connecticut (California and Florida also), which is part of the real world outside the internet where individuals are asking questions and looking for answers on various hand gun and firearms issues.

    I’m also anticipating a political cat fight in the Connecticut Legislature during the 2010 session.

    There are individuals who what to stop the growing firearms community from achieving their goals, and I am doing my mental and political exercises in preparation for the fight.

    Someone must climb up to the church steeple and light the lanterns, and the message must be sent by whatever legal means possible.

    Obviously we cannot trust the mainstream media to sound the alarm.

    Having vented, I’d like to ask you as a “STATE RESEARCHER” a few basic Connecticut related hand gun questions.

    1. Please supply the name of the largest organized open or concealed carry handgun advocacy group in Connecticut.
    2. Please supply the number of members and recent accomplishments of any group you choose to name.
    3. What has the NRA done to clarify open and conceal carry in Connecticut.
    4. Please provide the number of lobbyists that currently advocate handgun rights in Connecticut.
    5. Do you live in Connecticut?
    If the U.S. Supreme Court rules that the Second Amendment applies to the states, be prepared for a well organized campaign to attack the decision on every front.

    I would like to than John and Mike for making this website and message board available to individuals in every state, but in the real world it’s going to take gun owning residents and voters in Connecticut to hold the line, and this concept if it works is one way to contact them in a cost effective manner.

    If the email addresses are obtained, important timely messages can be conveyed to firearm/handgun owners LIKE THE LANTERNS IN THE OLD NORTH CHURCH IN BOSTON.



    edperuta@amcable.tv

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    Maybe a better approach would be for all stores, clubs & websites that feel the CCDL is a good voice for our cause tohave a signup link to the CCDL on their web sites home page.

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    That would be appreciated, and perhaps we could impose upon the store owners to send a note about CCDL from the store (that way nobody's private information has been disclosed outside of the store).

    It's a tough spot, we want everyone who has a permit and those that are just interested in their own rights to know about the CCDL and any help we can get to make that known would be great.

    Thanks

  11. #11
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    Although I really respect and appreciate all the work Ed is doing for us, I have to agree with HankT and PT111 here.

    This is bad territory. Do not violate the privacy of people, no matter what you think is 'good for them'.

    It is great that Hoffman's is willing to help here, but perhaps there are better and more positive things we could have them assist us with to get the word out and to 'use' their customer base resources. Especially if that doesn't violate laws and privacy agreements.

    I don't want to just discuss a problem though, so here are my proposed solutions:

    CCDL signups at places like Hoffman's.

    - Perhaps on weekends a table with a member or two could be set up at places like Hoffman's and other high traffic shops where people could be recruited?

    - Maybe Hoffman's could assist by handing out a brochure/membership form and mention CCDL to customers?

    - Could t-shirts or other 'schwag' be sold to benefit CCDL?

    - A separate mailing list could be placed at Hoffman's and people could be asked if they wish to sign up to receive CCDL updates. If this is chosen, care should be taken to not leave this list out, this should be something stored on the computer or behind the counter.
    Connecticut Carry is dedicated to advancing and protecting the fundamental civil rights of the men and women of Connecticut to keep and bear arms for self defense of themselves and the state as guaranteed by the United States Constitution and the Constitution of Connecticut.

    Join us and discuss the issues: http://ctcarry.com/Forum

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    The legality of your idea is not at question as far as I am concerned, only the ethical issue of it. I realize that your work is valuable to gun owners and youwould be doing them a service but being a noble cause is not a right to violate the principles of privacy and good business practices.

    Thankfully through the hard work of many people the SC legislature delcared the CWP list in SC to be private and available to only those with an actual need for the information. That I know it is the only list that is private. The DOT in SC raised quite a stink a while back when it was revealed that they were selling Drivers License information to spamers. It turned out that there was nothing illegal about it but upset a lot of people and it wasstopped. How would you like to be on the list of DL info sold?

    If I post something on this site I expect it to be available to anyone who has signed up for this forum. I have no problem with John and Mike sending me an email of whatever they want to. However I do object to them giving my email address to anyone to send me emails no matter what the cause. If they feel that the cause is justified then they need to send the email.

    I have a spam filter here where I work to block unwanted spam from our email. Right now it has reached the point that it is blocking 95% (yes that is ninety-five percent, 95 out of every 100) of the emails sent to our server. Yes 95% of all the emails we receive never even reach the email server. Those spammers use many of the same techniques that you are proposing. When you gather email addresses, or mailing addressesfrom businesses or whoever to send out unrequested information you are in the same class as those spammers no matter how noble your cause. Privacy laws such as the one passed in SC about the CWP list is not only to prevent the newspapers from getting the names of CWP holders but from spammers.

    As I said I am not questioning the legality or value of your idea, only the ethics of it.

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    If this is the opinion, then I will back away from attempts to notify others and let the cards fall where they may.

    There is no current way to communicate our ideas to others, and there are many who do not visit this or any other message boards.

    I have my Connecticut, Florida and Utah permits, know the laws in each stateand have the financial resources to defend MY rights and privileges.

    Whatever happens in the Connecticut Legislaturefrom this point forwardwill happen regardless of what we do.

    I can understand everyone's concern about spam, and will not discuss oradvocate communication between or to other hand gun owners.

    I have consideredall comments and now agree.

    I'll spend my time and resources in other areas.

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