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Thread: South Haven to lift gun ban in parks and cemetary

  1. #1
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    http://www.heraldpalladium.com/artic...ews/925387.txt

    Check out the stupid comments

    Thank you to all who helped with this one!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member bobn911's Avatar
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    Good job guys.From some of the comments, lookslike a bunch of people really need to pull their heads out of thesand . Thanks again, Bob
    Life Member: NRA (Benefactor), GOA, SAF, MUCC, and Case Collectors Club
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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Yeah the sand is suffocating
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Reading those comments made me think of a conversation I recently had with a very close rlative of mine. She heard about my incidents at both Target and IKEA and asked why I carry in the open. I explained my reasons, and one of her responses was "If I was shopping in a store and I saw someone carrying like that, I would leave immediatly and never shop at that store again".

    I explained that "if someone was carrying like that, there is a 99.9% chance that the person is a law abiding citizen, and you have nothing to fear. In fact, you should go up to that person and say thank you for exercising your right and pprotecting us and yourself". She laughed.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Yeah I read the comments and the statement of the Mayor Dorothy Appleyard.

    In light of everything that has happened to me recently, I'm in kind of a pissy mood. I think I'll email her.

    Good day, In a Herald Palladium article published October 22nd, 2009, regarding the South Haven City Council decision to lift the gun ban in parks, you made the following statement: "I firmly believe the city should have the right to say some areas are off limits for guns," Appleyard said. "They can't be in schools and they shouldn't be on the playgrounds. I think there should be some places off limits, just to keep community children and families safe." I feel it is my duty as an American citizen to ask this question of you: Do you honestly and truly believe that a violent criminal, who 90% of the time own their firearms illegally anyways, is going to listen to a law that says they aren't allowed to have it? Of course they won't. There is a valuable string of well thought out logic behind the Second Amendment, which, as much as certain politcal figures may try to argue, is written very clearly and concisely. It is because 'Gun Free Zones' are 'Criminal Empowerment Zones'. By the logic expressed in this statement, it seems that you would also be in favor of regulating or banning freedom of speech, assembly, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in certain areas within South Haven as well. I certainly hope for your own sake and the sake of citizens everywhere that you take serious consideration to the common sense offered in this letter. Here is some food for thought: Gun control has historically lead to the mass extermination of millions of people by their own government. In fact, in the last 100 years, more than 56 million defenseless people have been rounded up and exterminated by their own governments. That's more people than who died in combat during WWI and WWII combined. These 56 million people were defenseless and exterminated because they lost their right to keep and bear firearms. Look at what history tells us:
    1. In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
    2. In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
    3. Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
    4. China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
    5. Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
    6. Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
    7. Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, 'one million educated' people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
    Thank you for your time,
    My Signature
    style="background-color: rgb(0, 128, 128);""If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

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    Good work, That's a bit closer to home for me.

    -Richard-

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Wow... I got the one thing I didn't expect. A response!

    Dear Mr. [Creamsicle],

    The unfortunate thing about quotes in newspapers is that they are often only part of a statement.

    You wrote:
    By the logic expressed in this statement, it seems that you would also be in favor of regulating or banning freedom of speech, assembly, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in certain areas within South Haven as well.

    At the same time we amended the City ordinance relating to guns, we also cleaned up the language that pertained to freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. I fully support the rights that the Constitution provides on those issues.

    I also support the right of citizens to own and use guns. My issue arises when guns are present in our parks and on our beaches where families and children abound and there are accidents. A child would be just as dead from an accidental discharge as they would from a criminal act.

    Wouldn't the world be a perfect place if you could count on everyone to use good judgment? I know this is a hot button topic, but there should be some middle ground that protects the right of citizens to bear arms that still protects the rights of families to enjoy a day at the beach without being concerned about guns going off.

    If you wish a more in-depth discussion, please feel free to stop by City Hall during scheduled hours to discuss them, or if that time is not good for you, give me a call and we can set up another time.

    Sincerely,
    Dorothy Appleyard


    Dorothy Appleyard, Mayor
    City of South Haven
    539 Phoenix Street
    South Haven, MI 49090
    (269) 637-0700

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    She made the comment just as it was quoted.... Trust me I know... Also she is in a tough reelection fight so if she thinks you are a potential voter she will want to play nice...
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    From the article:

    "I firmly believe the city should have the right to say some areas are off limits for guns," Appleyard said.
    There are such places, they're called private property.


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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    Wow... I got the one thing I didn't expect. A response!
    Appleyard'sresponse is full of crap that can be ripped to shreds with respect tologic andreality. Do you plan to respond?
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    "My issue arises when guns are present in our parks and on our beaches where families and children abound and there are accidents."

    There are "families and children" at McDonald's, Wal-Mart, Chucky Cheese, Etc, should we also disarm while frequenting those places as well?

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    This is what I put, we shall see if it makes it up...

    Okay, time to be serious. I think that the mayor needs to be voted out if she has the mind set of "controlling" her citizens. That is ridiculous, she thinks she personally is smarted than the State and she should have more power than the State. Sounds like a power trip to me. I've herd it said on here already but maybe it will be more clear to other people reading. A no gun sign ONLY effects law abiding citizens. PERIOD. If a criminal has a gun, he is already breaking the law, does he care if he is breaking one more by carrying in a "pistol free zone"? I don't think so. And guess who isn't armed to protect you and your family? The law abiding citizen who locked his firearm in his vehicle of left it at home because of the sign. I know everyone thinks the police are around to save everyone, but keep this in mind. When seconds count the police are minutes away. I love the cops, they are great at their job, and their job is to catch criminals, not to stop them in the act. It is great when they do but it is rare. How often have you gone above the speed limit, and how many times did a police officer give you a ticket for it, probably a 1000 to 1 ratio. Its the same with shootings. Shootings that happen to happen are usually in "pistol free zones" because the bad-guy knows he isn't going to be stopped or shot by a good Samaritan. I hope this opens someones eyes.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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    God Bless

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    You guys haven't mentioned the Chiefs misinformation??? He said you can't carry in schools and bars whether CC or OC. We know that's not true. Perhaps someone that registered to comment on the papers site can correct that statement.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    I have tried Ven but they censer me and I almost never get my comments posted on there...
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  15. #15
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    autosurgeon wrote:
    I have tried Ven but they censer me and I almost never get my comments posted on there...
    Screw the comments. Send a 'letter to the editor'. I was a journalist once... if you send a letter to the editor, they have to print it in the next issue in most cases. Either that or they have to print a retraction pointing out their error. Letter to the editor is the way to go on this one.



    DanM wrote:
    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    Wow... I got the one thing I didn't expect. A response!
    Appleyard'sresponse is full of crap that can be ripped to shreds with respect tologic andreality. Do you plan to respond?
    I did reply. I agreed that an accidental discharge does not discriminate, but I also told her that a criminal is more likely and also more of a threat. I did have to thank her for not using a form-letter though. I hate those.

    I don't remember exactly what I said but... it sounded good.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    DanM wrote:
    Appleyard'sresponse is full of crap that can be ripped to shreds with respect tologic andreality. Do you plan to respond?
    I did reply. I agreed that an accidental discharge does not discriminate, but I also told her that a criminal is more likely and also more of a threat.
    Thank you for responding back to her. I hope you also made the following key points:

    • Properly carried guns don't discharge by themselves.
    • It is the handling of guns which increases the risk of discharge. Zones where carry is banned leads to morehandling of guns as carriers must unholster, store, and re-holster when going in and out of such zones. Therefore, more zones where gun carry is banned actually contributesto higher risk of discharge.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Mine made it.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

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