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Thread: What are the open carry laws in wichita and the surrounding area

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    I have found a little bit of information on this and I am wanting other peoples input can you open carry if you have a CCW in wichita and the surrounding areas

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    Wichita is licensed open carry. What that means if you have a concealed carry permit you can open carry a firearm.



    The link is the thread with info on Wichita open carry. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum24/25514.html



    Be careful if you do decide to open carry. Supposedly most law enforcement in Wichita do not know the gun laws. So be prepared for anything.



    Don’t let anything detour you from open carrying. If you have a right, do it!





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    I'm just going to put this out there. I fully support OC. I miss doing it while I spent two years in Colorado. State preemption is beautiful. But I will warn you of this:

    If you OC in Wichita, I can almost guarantee it will not end well. How do I know you ask? I work for Sedgwick County 911. I've seen things end poorly for people who would have been well within their rights in other states. That and the mentality of your average Wichitan is pretty squeamish around firearms.

    Also take note a Deputy was killed a month ago via ambush from behind with a rifle and there are still people threatening weekly to repeat that same incident. The whole county has taken several steps up in ensuring officer safety, some I see as personally aggressive.

    I'd urge you not to. Not at least until you can convince the D.A.'s office that you are within the right to and they concur.

    My two cents.

    Good luck regardless.

    AC

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    ACEllis,

    I can’t tell you how much your post has stirred my emotions. Not that you offended or attacked me personally but that you would actually discourage someone from exercising their rights!!! And you’re in a position to bring about change in Wichita.

    Me personally I would rather be dead than to allow someone or a government entity to intimidate me from exercising my legal rights.

    I have to honestly say Wichita is a sad situation when it comes to open carry. You will get two responses when asking someone from Wichita about open carry.

    1-One, don’t do it the cops will shoot you full of holes
    2-Second, don’t tell anyone because they might take away our right if you do OC (supposedly the city council misread the concealed carry law and thought they had to allow open carry so that’s why OC is legal in Wichita with a valid concealed carry license) For the record I believe the council knew exactly what they were doing.

    In Topeka we had a similar situation. I told someone we could legally open carry so they emailed the policy chief. His response to them was he would arrest anyone OC”ing in Topeka and that it was against state law and city ordinance. Well he was wrong on both accounts.

    Upon hearing this I immediately called and emailed my city commissioner who emailed the city manager who emailed the chief of police who emailed the city attorney for an opinion. The city attorney emailed all of us back stating that it was not illegal to open carry in KS or Topeka!!! which I posted the attorneys email response on this site. Since then I have been on an information campaign to educate the Topeka law enforcement and public by starting an organization called Open Carry Topeka. OC Topeka is a watchdog organization sole purpose in protecting our OC rights and making sure the police and public are educated.

    What has happed is now all the police force knows open carry is legal and people in Topeka are now starting to open carry without harassment.

    Someone in Wichita needs to step up to the plate and organize an open carry picnic or trash pick up and invite the media and call the police to let them know what you’re doing. Only positive things will come of this just use Green Bay as an example. Yes this would cause a lot of stir in Wichita but once everything settled down the police and public would be educated and law abiding citizens would start to open carry.

    This site clearly states on the very front page “a right unexercised is a right lost”

    ACEllis why don’t you start an information campaign in Wichita to inform the police and public. You could start small by handing a copy of the city ordinance to every police officer you contact so they know it’s perfectly legal to open carry with a valid concealed carry permit. You would be surprise how fast the word would spread through out the law enforcement community. I started this way in Topeka with very good results. Yes you’re going to have people who disagree with you but don’t let that discourage you from your mission.

    If you keep quite and don’t exercise your rights they will be taken away. They just won’t matter anymore. Please stand up and do something to make Wichita open carry friendly.

    Respectfully,

    Earl

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    Well I'm glad to see I'm not being flamed for expressing myself. It's nice we could discuss this civilly.

    In regards to the two listed responses to OC in Wichita:
    1- All the LE in the county have a pretty good track record in regards to necessary and unnecessary weapons discharges. The last time I knew of an officer shooting any humans (a few dogs can sometimes be shot monthly), was the suspect who murdered the Deputy. That occurred after a long standoff and search in which he was finally located after the suspect opened fire on SWAT, ATF, and KBI. I don't know of any before then, but I have only been living in Kansas again since Feb 2009. They are not infallible. Tazering a naked, deaf old man in his own home because someone called a fake shooting at his apartment is not good. It's down right negligent. Despite the thousands of successes, you'll hear the failures the loudest.

    2- I've never bickered in city politics. I've only lived here since July. I'm not allowed to meddle in county politics due to my job...not even allowed to discuss it in the workplace (not that anyone does, its a dry subject.) We keep the County Commissioners butts slightly damp with kisses so we can continue to be funded, staffed, and expand with the growing needs of the population.

    2a- Kansas gun politics is also new turf for me. I moved to Colorado right after my 21st B-day and always avoided Wichita before then. What the city intended or didn't intend is beyond me. I was under the impression the words "openly" never appeared in the state statue that is being drawn into question here. "Unconcealed" is what I remember. I'm not splitting hairs. Yes, you are right. I would interpret it as a validation of the open carry right, but the litigators could have intended something else. Maybe it was put there to protect CCer's from "printing" and accidental "brandishing" charges. Just mull that over for a few. Clearly written laws leave no room for interpretation, and this one doesn't quite have that aroma.

    A few word on the Police Chief of Wichita... Norman Williams... I've never met the man. But every interaction I've had with him personally over the phone has been incredibly pleasant. I am a peon in my department, but he still takes time out of his day when he is trying to reach my supervisor to ask me how may day is going. He's checked first on scene of a gas station clerk getting shot in the face for someone elses gang initiation. He was in the area, in the middle of the night, plain clothes, no kevlar. He's was one of the first to arrive after two moving gang vehicles opened fire on one another in a residential neighborhood, likely in plain clothes on his own time again. He leads from the front and officer safety is his HIGHEST priority if he has to go out there and back them up himself. An ivory-tower, jackbooted thug he is not. Please don't let anyone try and convince you or anyone otherwise if we are to learn of an opposition to open carry he may harbor.

    http://www.wichita.gov/CityOffices/P...hiefPolice.htm

    In no way am I telling anyone not OC in the city of Wichita. Doing so without a CCH is illegal, at least we can agree on that, regardless if we like the law or not. Be informed on the areas outside the traditional city that are Wichita annexed. It is constantly growing and often patchwork and snake like. I'm merely suggesting to challenge the city prosecutors/legislators before anyone starts "testing the water." Rosa Parks may have been vindicated in the end, but she still spent time in jail before the wrongs were righted. I cannot be that martyr.

    Nor can I be the boat-rocker. As much as I would love to be in the fight for gun rights, doing so could easily compromise me professionally here. I have random daily interactions with everyone from high ranking LE people, city/county/state officials, and even FEMA personnel. We even had representatives from London who are adopting the system we use for EMS, which they hope to have online by their next hosting of the Olympics. Most of the time I don't even know who anyone is until I read a badge, shirt emblem, folder logo, or ask.

    I'd be happy to ask your everyday beat officer their opinions, likely reactions and their understanding of the city/state statues as well as their limitations. I'll even post their general retort sans their name. Just send me all the EXACT statues that pertain to OC legality in Wichita.

    If that day comes where someone is walking along the Arkansas River on a sunny day with a pistol in their holster, and regardless of whether or not I know it is an OCer, two officers and possibly a patrol supervisor are going to try and contact that person. That will be a disgusting day for me, but I have to take the description from the concerned citizen and then dispatch the appropriate units. No call is disregarded when it involves any type of weapon. Sorry.

    On a side note: I only recently met my 6 month residency and the 8 hours training to apply for my CCH. It will feel damn good to start carrying again once I send it out and get the card back. Wichita is a dirty, diseased, crime-ridden town. It is on the up and up with the social and mental health programs that are in the works or recently implemented. I believe this city will be on a very measurable up swing as soon as we can start getting the jobs back and putting asses in those seats.

    AC


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    Hey ACEllis,

    Thank you for the post. We need to be friends. Open Carry in Kansas I believe is going to change for the better in the next couple of years.

    One, if McDonald beats Chicago over the city gun ban law suit, not only will things change in Chicago but everywhere in the US. Bans of any type will go away. Hopefully!!!

    No where in the Kansas open carry law does it state cities and counties can ban. Regulate is all the state gives localities. Municipalities have taken advantage of the regulate clause by banning.

    Hopefully this will all change with the McDonald case. Pray he wins!! This case will hopefully help KS gun owners achieve full preemption with open carry. We have full preemption on concealed carry.

    Have a great week

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    marine0300 wrote:
    Wichita is licensed open carry. What that means if you have a concealed carry permit you can open carry a firearm.



    The link is the thread with info on Wichita open carry. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum24/25514.html


    Marine0300: Does anyone have a definite e-mail/letter or something fromthe city attorney explaining OC rights in Wichita? The link above just lists debates including one from a WPD officer stating that OC is not legal

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    Hopefully today I can shed some light on all this and lay this beast to rest. First off, I would like to respond to some information being blasted on this site from individuals that #1, probably don't have law degrees, nor are they police officers, nor do they even live in Wichita, nor do they personally know the individual that wrote the CCL for Kansas in order to push the cause for carry concealed.



    I first want to respond to the comment, "Supposedly most law enforcement in Wichita do not know the gun laws. So be prepared for anything." First I want to say that Wichita has not only the finest police officers in the country and also extremely educated, but they are the only police agency to win the Weaver Seavey Award for excellence in law enforcement in the entire world and they won this twice. Most all Wichita Police officers are college educated, often with degrees in law, criminal justice or similar degrees. Also, Wichita has the longest police training academy in the State of Kansas and even after the academy, they have the longest FTO program. Having said that, the Wichita Police were well versed in the law AND the new CCL law that came about in Wichita and the changes to it.

    Having said that; the facts at hand. Yes "Kansas" is open carry but leaves it up to cities to decide. Wichita IS NOT OPEN CARRY. Now does the ordinance leaves it open to interpretation that it is? Yes and No. The original creator of the CCL in Kansas is a friend of mine, and although he was working with the state on this and not cities, he told me his "intent" was to allow carry concealed and not open carry. I also spoke the city attorney in charged of training law enforcement on the ordinance and the "intent" was to have the CCL guidelines rule of city ordinance. And if you take a CCL class in Kansas, the instructors are trained to teach you that you can only carry conceal and if you go unconcealed you can be arrested in Wichita. In other words your license says "carry concealed" not "carry unconcealed" and the ordinance is understood you are to abide by your training of NOT carrying unconcealed.

    Your next question I'm sure is why does the ordinance read that way? Well, it was read that way to protect the citizens that get a CCL from accidentally flashing their guns through the shirt etc. But, since we have individuals like Marine300 that spout untrue information like "Wichita is licensed open carry. What that means if you have a concealed carry permit you can open carry a firearm." Without ever contacting a city attorney or the creator of the CCL law to see if this is true. There is a reason why people spend four years in law school guys. So due to people like Marine300 testing the system that is designed to protect our citizens, the system is forced to adapt, just like it always does. Starting in the very near future the ordinance will be changed to add that NO ONE CAN CARRY UNCONCEALED. This means that if you have a CCL and you accidently flash your gun you can now be prosecuted and booked in jail but before the ordinance gave us leeway. Congratulations guys for pressing the issue and making the law more restrictive! Give yourself and pat on the back in our pursuit to honoring our 2nd amendment.

    Even if someone was to go to Wichita with some type of rally and walk around open carry you WILL be arrested and booked. And if you were able to get out on a verbiage issue with the ordinance, it would immediately be changed the next week and would not be an issue and Wichita would remain a none open carry city.



    READ MY LIPS, WICHITA IS NOT OPEN CARRY!!! Or not until the Supreme Court says otherwise. Good luck to all of you on your quest for the truth.





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    SAEFROG,

    Thanks for your thoughts on this issue, dedication to upholding the law, and for being such a great servant to the community. I have followed up with Tim Potter from Wichita's Eagle to urge him to write a piece on this topic. He recently published a very strong article in favor of CCL, which outlines the many positive elements/facts of concealed carry in Wichita.

    http://www.kansas.com/topstories/story/1072955.html

    I hope Tim can help put pressure on anti-gun city counsel members and attorneys so that they promote the State's Constitution, which supports Open Carryfor free citizens; this will hopefully prevent any changes to local ordinances. With all of the pressure on anti-gun officals and supreme ct rulings in favor of 2nd Amend. rights, I would hopeWichita's City Counsel wakes up to what is good for the People.

    SAEFROG,wouldn't youagree that having more responsible gun-owners is an important facet to reducing crime? Even FBI statisitics promote this and a current bill (HR 17) provides evidence of this fact. Over 2 million citizens have defended themselves from criminals each year, so I hope you would support measures to promote armed citizens- concealed or unconcealed. Promoting this type of culture with free, responsible citizens is key to decreasing crime, because as you know WPD can't be in all places at all times to protect the public.

    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill...d?bill=h111-17

    I agree that WPD is a fine department, but sometimes too much of a good thing is bad, e.g. increase of WPD = increase of taxes. This is one reason why responsible gun owners support and promote an Open Carry agenda.

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    Seafrog,

    I am proud to help lead the charge in Kansas for our open carry rights and I don’t apologize. People in our state need to open carry more or we are going to lose this right. I also understand without complete preemption cities and counties can allow or restrict our OC rights. Some cities completely ban the practice which no were in our state law that I can find, can municipalities ban – I only see regulate.

    My experience is most police offers aren’t lawyers and don’t know the laws. That is not at all running down police officers. There job is to enforce things and keep the peace. I have many examples were people have asked police officers not only in Wichita but many other cities in Kansas about the weapons ordinances and the officers aren’t for sure and most don’t really know or they say something that is totally wrong.

    I haven’t spouted anything untrue, Mortimer started the post Open Carry in Wichita yes we can. He researched the ordinance and spoke with the city attorney’s office and they agreed with Mortimer. There are many other posts on other forums that agree if you have a CCW you can legally OC in Wichita.

    Myself or anyone else on this forum hasn’t hurt the 2nd Amendment. I beg to differ we have strengthen it and brought Kansas gun rights to the forefront. People need to know the facts and truth about our laws. They also need to get involved to change things if need be and if they have a right to OC they should do it. I don’t prescribe the notion that if you exercise your rights they maybe taken away. Things need to be upfront by the people, police and governing bodies. Either you can do something or not. Gray area is bad and ignorance is worse.

    A challenge is in order. Seafrog why don’t you organize in Wichita to help protect what is already on the books. I bet you could rally many people that would call their city commissioners and show up at a council meeting in support of open carry!

    Please don’t attack me or other people on this web site. It is a place for people who truly care about open carry and want to promote and expand the practice.

    Marine0300


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    First I want to say to both Damian and Marine0300 that while I support open carry, I also acknowledge the pitfalls and the reasons why the left don’t want open carry especially from a LEO perspective. Without going into much detail, issues would be known gang members wearing colors and a gun on their hip while this might not be intimidating to a marine or a police officer, would be to my elderly grandmother or my wife when they are by themselves. I understand that Damian per our conversation on the phone, believes that gang members would not do this but you would be surprised what they would do if they know that it is legal. They wear gang colors and get tats to intimidate, why would they not add a gun if it was legal? And keep in mind that most gang members are not convicted felons so they would be able to open carry legally. Other issues would be the constant 911 calls for suspicious character with a gun when LEO officers have to go out and stop the individual and see if he has a permit, eventually the community would become immune and would think "he probably just has a CCL permit" when in fact, maybe he doesn’t. I’m not arguing these points, I’m just pointing out facts that as we need to acknowledge them in order to overcome and move forward rather than butt heads with the left.

    Second, you state "I haven’t spouted anything untrue, Mortimer started the post Open Carry in Wichita yes we can. He researched the ordinance and spoke with the city attorney’s office and they agreed with Mortimer." My point is your data came from a screen name on the internet so "it must be true". My response was that I don’t believe this to be true because I just spoke with the head city attorney who is also responsible for training officers on the CCL ordinance and according to her, the entire staff, and 600 police officers that I work with WE ARE NOT OPEN CARRY. I am also personal friends with the individual that passed the CCL law in Kansas that he said that his was not his intent to have open carry but to be carry concealed only. If you feel I am wrong then prove me wrong by calling yourself, or trying to open carry in Wichita and see what happens, not from getting arrested but from the city prosecutors actually prosecuting your case!

    All I ask is that you guys check your facts that someone spouted online. To prove my point even more here are the two scenarios and tell me which one makes more sense.

    1. Wichita is open carry, but they didn’t teach any of the police officers about it and they are stupid about gun laws so if you carry, all the cops will arrest you but because I know more than they do about their own law, you will get off in court so it’s ok to go do this.

  12. Wichita is not open carry, the police will arrest and book you and the head city attorney said you will be prosecuted for such.

If you read my previous post you will see that after my conversation with the head attorney for the gun ordinance, it is being amended to make it more clear in the very near future anyhow but currently you will still be book for violating your CCL permit and open carry. The purpose was to protect people like Marine0300 and Damian when they carry concealed and accidently flash their guns. The intent was that they would follow their CCL guidelines and training that says "carry concealed" not open carry license. All I want is for if someone was to try to open carry in Wichita that they understand that they will be booked by Wichita Police Officers that are highly knowledgeable on gun laws and have been trained by city attorneys on the ordinance. If they choose to fight the law fine, but lets be accurate about everything up front before we goat someone into breaking the law from something they read online just for our own agenda. This information that it is legal in Wichita and that the cops don’t know the gun laws is simply not true and should stop.

What this forum should now change to since we have established that Wichita is NOT open carry and will make it more clear soon is how do we go about changing Wichita to open carry? I appreciated DamiansA15 method of taking it to a political forum like he is doing with the media. This is what the NRA preaches. Lets face it folks, laws are passed by power and money. Money is what elects officials for campaigns and the officials follow the money. Join a PAC/special interest group and get elected officials on your side, not getting yourself arrested with your .45 on your hip, your worthless CCL around your neck while walking your dog in a known none open carry city. Let’s do this the right way as my friend did and take it to the political forum. Get your facts straight, bring gun law data and facts to District Advisory Boards, join a PAC, write the Wichita Eagle and get columns posted!
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    Hey Saefrog,

    I appreciate your perspective and experience and glad you’re contributing to the forum. You bring up some good points. But you ruin your perspective by attacking me and making things personal at the end of your blog.

    My facts are straight and I didn’t use one source to come to my conclusion. Trust me when I tell you I didn’t start the open carry Wichita controversy and many other people have come to the same conclusion. Yes my agenda is to promote OC. Open Carry has always been around but is being rediscovered nationally because of this web site. Open carry will be shocking until normalized and the only way to make it normal is to exercise the right.

    I do want to address a couple of things. After the Personal & Family Protection Act was passed in 2006 (concealed carry) cities including Wichita, Topeka, & many other municipalities updated their weapons laws and yes they didn’t realize they allowed open carry. A lot of cities have adopted the ‘UPOC’ Uniform Public Offense Code which does not prohibit open carry. Open carry has been such an after thought that the local governments, law enforcement and public has not a clue OC is legal.

    You mentioned gangs. Gangs already have guns and just because they might start open carrying, in my opinion, isn’t a valid reason to deny law abiding citizens their right to OC. There are 12 Gold Star open carry states and they haven’t repealed their open carry laws because of gangs OC.

    Finally since Kansas does not have preemption on OC I believe more has to be done than writing articles in the paper and joining a PAC. People have to organize at the lowest level and elect gun friendly officials to the city councils. I believe the NRA and PAC can do better at the state level fighting for preemption. Kansas needs one uniform gun law for OC from corner to corner.

    You’re new to the form so contribute professionally and we will all learn from your background and knowledge.

    Marine0300

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    'Sorry saefrog... but you're a typical 'statist' with a statist's myopicpoint of view. Your mind is full of 'clutter'. The answer is right under your nose:

    Kansas Constitution Bill of Rights 4

    The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security; but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be tolerated, and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power.

    There are no 'conditions' for the free exercise of a 'Right'. Government cannot grant Rights, only recognize, restrict or deny them. Permits and license are merely government contrivancerequiring a fee be paid for the limited exercise of a Right as regulated by such government.

    Y'all can pat yourselves on the back 'n tell yourselves what a good job you've done or do... but it's merely an endemic continuance of government denial of the right to bear arms. This attitude is carried out by the badged JBT's who gladly lick the hands that sign their paychecks even tho they have taken the oath of office to support and defend such Constitutional issues. Hypocrytes all. It's a sham.

    You talk of 'gangs' bearing arms openly... Bullsnort! You and I both know that criminals never carry openly. You and I both know that the Gun Control Act of 1968 as detailed in 18USC and duplicated in nearly every State law prohibits certain persons from possessing, much less bearing arms for the common good. They're criminals... they do it anyway (concealed). Until you can 'legislate' human behavior... this will continue. Open Carry is a deterent against criminal predation. Period.

    I carry pretty much anything I want openly everyday... w/o incident. We've been doing that here aLONG time... since statehood in 1912 'n prior as a Territory. Of course we have gangs and illegals 'n smugglers 'n all sorts of criminals... but the people are not disallowed the exercise of the Right for their self defense as they so choose.

    You so-called 'educated' persons seem to know everything and understand nothing. An all too-common condition.



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    First off I want to say that in no way am I trying to personally attack anyone or you, Marine300. But I am attacking facts that have been said on this site. If attacking facts that you said is in essence attacking you than I am sorry you feel that way. But if that is the case, then saying untrue facts about Wichita, the dumb cops, and misunderstanding the intent of the city code is also in essence attacking me. The way I look at it, so far everyone I've seen on here supports each other on our quest for our 2nd amendment rights. The only thing we are in difference is how the city attorneys and police are enforcing the current gun laws. That is up to debate but nothing else.

    Second, I bring up points that others (not me) will have issues with open carry but both Marine300 and Sonora attacked these statements as if I believe or stated them. If I said "some people" believe President Obama is a great president, don't go attacking me when in fact I think he is a lunatic and I helped on the presidential campaign for Huckabee and have been a die hard right wing conservative who supports gun rights. Guys perception is reality and by saying "You and I both know that criminals never carry openly," is your perception but you are not stating any facts to back that up because the left could easily say "criminals will do whatever the law allows them too just like you and I can". So who would be right and why? The key is we have to give data and facts that educated the left not random opinionated statements with to facts or at least clout that what you are saying is reasonable because of your professional experience etc.

    So, lets look at the facts. Senora Rebel mentioned a 40 year old law but didn't go into much detail when he said "You and I both know that the Gun Control Act of 1968 as detailed in 18USC and duplicated in nearly every State law prohibits certain persons from possessing, much less bearing arms for the common good" Well it he says "certain" so lets find out what "certain" really means and how it is applied in Kansas and not Arkansas. According to our new CCL license the only people that could NOT carry a gun on the streets are:

    1) 21 years old
    2) someone who had tried to commit suicide in the past 2 years.
    3) A citizen of the United States
    4) A resident of Kansas for 6 months.
    5) No Felony convictions (misdemeanors like assault on a law enforcement officer or a gang related fight, tagging, etc is fine!)
    6) No DV charges
    7) No carry concealed convictions within the past 5 years.
    8) Two Dui's within the past 5 years.
    9) No drug convictions within the past 5 years.
    10) Physical deformities that would prevent you from safe handling.
    11) A judged disabled.
    12) Any current pending charges for felony, or DV charges.
    13) Dishonorable discharge from the military.
    14) Contempt of court in regards to Child Support.
    15) Certain applicable restraining orders
    16) Adjudicated or committed as having a mental disorder.
    17) Ordered by court to receive treatment for mental illness or drug abuse

    This is it folks, this is all she wrote. Now, looking at this list where does it say that a known self admitting gang member cannot get a carry concealed license? Keep in mind being a known gang member is not a crime in Kansas and you don't have to have been found guilty of a felony to be entered into the city computer at a known gang member. And if you say "that would not happen" would you be willing to sign a document with a liberal democrat that if one single gang member EVER got a license and then lawfully open carried that you would agree to make Kansas a Non carry concealed state forever? If you are not able to make such an agreement then you can't convince that left wings that it won't happen because you need to data or proof that it couldn't.

    Here is another side point, keep mind my personal friend is the one that drafted up the CCL laws. Some of them are silly like #14 that if you owe child support you can't get a carry concealed. My personal opinion is that this is silly that if you are an outstanding citizen but lost your job and get back on child support payments you can't carry concealed but if you are known gang member you can! I asked him about this and he said that when making laws you sit down with bleeding liberals at a table and in order to get laws passed you have to concede and agree on issue in order to pass it no matter how silly it is. You can't just spit stuff like "that would never happen" without any facts or data to back it up. If you think it would never happen then fine, back up and put it to law that if it did this or that would happen. You have to acknowledge the liberals crazy mindset in order to pass things, you can't have it all your way. And besides lets look at the facts, my friend knew that this would not get researched anyhow and just added it to appease the liberals. Think about #16 or #2, how do you prove this? You can't look up in a government computer and find peoples medical records. Police officers can't even call a doctors office and ask if they are a patient due to the doctor/patient confidentiality.

    To prove this, my close friend who was diagnosed with PTSD and received treatment for his mental illness on #17 & #16 got his carry concealed license last year!!! Folks most of this stuff is just impossible for them to find, it was put in there to appease the liberals so they would approve the CCL and say "look what I did to make sure everyone is safe etc etc now re-elect me." The only background check they do is a NCIC which is the FBI background check in checking for convictions though a court of clerk which would be felonies or DV misdemeanors only. Your health records are not public knowledge and without a subpoena/warrant from a judge would they ever know. Also, to date being a gang member is not listed into NCIC and even if it was, is not a exclusion from getting a CCL in Kansas.

    Marine0300 you said "I do want to address a couple of things. After the Personal & Family Protection Act was passed in 2006 (concealed carry) cities including Wichita, Topeka, & many other municipalities updated their weapons laws and yes they didn’t realize they allowed open carry." Although I did talk to the head attorney for the city of Wichita and she said that they did this on purpose for the reasons I listed on the last post, I can see why someone could call the "BS flag" and think it was a mistake. But, at any rate if you are right the error will be fixed at the next City Council meeting and the ordinance will clearly state that Wichita is NOT OPEN CARRY. Not even for law enforcement who are off duty! So really much of this debate is a mute point because this is all being fixed shortly.

    "Finally since Kansas does not have preemption on OC I believe more has to be done than writing articles in the paper and joining a PAC. People have to organize at the lowest level and elect gun friendly officials to the city councils. I believe the NRA and PAC can do better at the state level fighting for preemption. Kansas needs one uniform gun law for OC from corner to corner." I concur but when I said joining a PAC typically that his what a PAC does, they have an agenda and raise money to donate to the candidate that supports them. I'm currently a member of a PAC on a different issue and raise money for city council members to support our cause. And the local city council and State Reps will be the ones effecting Kansas. But you are right, if the NRA can force the Supreme Court to rule the 2nd Amendment to all states then this will be a win for everyone and not just locally.

    Senora Rebel I apologize if I didn't answer any of your statements, it seemed I was a little confused by.....well pretty much all of it. I'm glad that you can open carry in Arkansas and I know what the 2nd amendment stated for federally before the issue was left up to the states but this forum is talking about Wichita, Kansas which is NOT open carry and I've personally seen multiple people arrested and prosecuted and held up in court for such. And if a law degree and 10 years of law enforcement experience in the state someone actually lives in makes people "understand nothing" then us Kansans are guilty as charged.




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    I am just a regular citizen of Wichita that WAS interested in receiving my CCW Permit. But thanks to the information posted on this thread, well, you pretty much scared me away from doing so. The reason? Well, the part that if I accidentally flash my concealed weapon, I will go to jail. I mean at some point, the law of averages will take hold, and at some point I may bend over at the grocery store a little to far, and expose some, or all of my gun, so I get prosecuted for it! That to me is a very good incentive to not get my CCW permit. I will be the first to admit, I do make mistakes, and this one would be the one that I would really regret. So if the reason behind amending the OC in Wichita is to discourage people to carry concealed, it worked on me. I just for a second, thought it would be a good idea to be able to protect myself, and my family, because Wichita is getting pretty rough and nasty as far as crime goes, but I guess I thought wrong.

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    Markbet I'm sorry you feel that way. Originally the ordinance was left open so that if someone had a CCL and they were abiding by the fact that it is carry concealed and accidentally exposed the gun "OR" had to use the gun to defend themselves they would be exempt from our non open carry laws. This was made this way to protect people like you, the CCL holder. Unfortunately, there have been some and according to the attorneys not just the people on this site but others who tried to press the issue and take advantage of a good thing consequently forcing the city to make a blanket statement that we are NON OPEN CARRY.

    BUT, I can tell you that because of pressure from this site and other groups that although the city code was forced to be more clear, that doesn't take away from officer discretion. I can tell you that all the police officers I know would not book a CCL holder because the wind blew his jacket open. But then again, I can't tell you 100% of the time that every police officer wouldn't. It is possible you might run into a young energetic rookie that wants to book everyone for everything he can, I can't promise that won't happen. But also, remember that in Wichita all police officers have to get a hold of a veteran Sergeant for all arrests approvals. So now that decision to arrest would be up to the senior Sergeant and I personally have no reason to not trust them.

    So can I tell you for sure 100% that you would not get arrested? No I can't and I wish I could. A week ago yes because our city code allowed that flexibility but not now. But I can say I think it will be highly unlikely that an officer would book a CCL holder if his was "intentionally" trying to conceal and it became unconcealed by accident. The Wichita officers in my opinion are one of the best in country in making decisions like this and that is partly because those decisions have to be run by a supervisor on EVERY arrest. Now would a known gang member get that same courtesy discretion if he had a CCL and was flashing his gun around along with his hang gang signs?????





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    Saefrog, Thank you for your reply. It made me feel somewhat better, but, I am still unsure. Maybe I should be looking at it from the angle, is the lives of me and my family worth the risk, without a doubt, yes it is, I am trying to talk myself into going ahead with getting my CCW, how am I doing?

    I do have a question on something you said. You mean if I had a life threatening situation, and had to draw my weapon while out in public, that would be considered open carry, and could be at risk of going to jail? I mean, if I carry concealed, but can't ever draw it in public, what is the purpose of being able to carry concealed? I am trying to make sense out of this, but I can't seem to get the job done. The City of Wichita has a way of making things clear as mud, and they have not disappointed me on this one for sure.

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    In the event of self defense, you would be exempt from this law. For example, before we even had CCL and someone discharged a firearm to defend themselves, they were never charged with discharging a firearm within the city limits which is a crime as well. My point is the city would treat pulling your gun out the same as discharging your gun when in self defense.

    Now does it say this in black and white? No it doesn't but going by past practice, which might I add has case law to support past practice issues, you will be fine. I'm 100% certain that you would not get in trouble for this, but even if I was wrong open carry is a misdemeanor anyhow and what is more important your family's safety or a silly fine in municipal court?

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    Thank you Saefrog for your help! I will continue with receiving my CCW. You have been a very big help in my decision on what to do.

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    BTW, if there is an effort going on to legalize open carry here in Wichita, I am willing to help support it in anyway I can. Mark.

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    saefrog


    I love your I know everything you know nothing stance on open carry in wichita.

    PS. If the law in wichita said you cant open carry then why are the going to change it to say no one may open cary??????????

    We know you know everything so explain it to us please.

    Then name all of theCCH holders who have been sent to jail for open cary in wichita.

    (6) Subsections 1(d), 1(e), 1 (f), and 1 (g) shall not apply to any person authorized to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to the Personal and Family Protection Act, K.S.A. 75-7c01 through K.S.A. 75-7c18, and amendments thereto.

    (e) Carrying on one's person any unconcealed, loaded firearm, while on property open to the public, except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business;

    It only matters what the law states not what you think your friend intended.

    Wichita, Kansas - Code of Ordinances

    Sec. 5.88.010. Unlawful use of weapons.

    (1) Unlawful use of a weapon is knowingly:

    (a) Selling, manufacturing, purchasing, possessing or carrying any bludgeon, sandclub, metal knuckles or throwing star, or any knife, commonly referred to as a switch-blade, which, having the appearance of a pocket knife, also has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, or by other mechanical contrivance, or any knife having a blade that opens or falls or is ejected into position by the force of gravity or by an outward, downward or centrifugal thrust or movement;

    (b) Carrying concealed on one's person, or possessing with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, blackjack, slingshot, nightstick, nun-chucks, sap gloves, tomahawk, dangerous knife, straight-edged razor, stiletto or any other dangerous or deadly instrument of like character, except that an ordinary pocket knife with no blade more than four inches in length shall not be construed to be a dangerous knife or a dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument;

    (c) Carrying unconcealed on one's person or in any vehicle under one's immediate control, with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, blackjack, slingshot, nightstick, nunchucks, sap gloves, tomahawk, dangerous knife, straight-edged razor, stiletto or any other dangerous or deadly instrument of like character, except that an ordinary pocket knife with no blade more than four inches in length shall not be construed to be a dangerous knife or a dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument;

    (d) Carrying any pistol, revolver or other firearm concealed on one's person, while on property open to the public, except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business;

    (e) Carrying on one's person any unconcealed, loaded firearm, while on property open to the public, except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business;

    (f) Carrying in any vehicle under one's immediate control, while on property open to the public, any loaded firearm, except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business;

    (g) Carrying in any air, land or water vehicle an unloaded firearm that is not encased in a container which completely encloses the firearm;

    (h) Carrying a loaded or unloaded firearm in a courtroom or within City Hall;

    (i) Drawing a pistol, revolver, knife or any other deadly weapon upon any person.

    (j) As used in this section, "throwing star" means any instrument, without handles, consisting of a metal plate having three or more radiating points with one or more sharp edges and designed in the shape of a polygon, trefoil, cross, star, diamond or other geometric shape, manufactured for use as a weapon for throwing.

    (2) Subsections (1)(a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f) and (g), (h), and (i) of this subsection shall not apply to or affect any of the following:

    (a) Law enforcement officers, or any person summoned by any such officers to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while actually engaged in assisting such officer;

    (b) Wardens, superintendents, directors, security personnel and keepers of prisons, penitentiaries, jails and other institutions for the detention of persons accused or convicted of a crime, while acting within the scope of their authority;

    (c) Members of the armed services or reserve forces of the United States or the Kansas National Guard while in the performance of their official duty; or

    (d) Manufacture of, transportation to, or sale of weapons to a person authorized under (a) through (c) of this subsection to possess such weapons.

    (e) Qualified law enforcement officers or qualified retired law enforcement officers pursuant to the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004, 18 U.S.C. 926B and 18 U.S.C. 926C and amendments thereto.

    (3) Subsection (1)(d), (e) and (f) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

    (a) Watchmen, while actually engaged in the performance of the duties of their employment;

    (b) Private detectives licensed by the state to carry the firearm involved while actually engaged in the duties of their employment;

    (c) Detectives or special agents regularly employed by railroad companies or other corporations to perform full-time security or investigative service, while actually engaged in the duties of their employment; or

    (d) The State Fire Marshal, the State Fire Marshal's deputies or any member of a fire department authorized to carry a firearm pursuant to K.S.A. 31-157 and amendments thereto, while engaged in an investigation in which such fire marshal, deputy or member is authorized to carry a firearm pursuant to K.S.A. 31-157 and amendments thereto.

    (e) Special deputy sheriffs described in K.S.A. 2001 Supp. 19-827, and amendments thereto, who have satisfactorily completed the basic course of instruction required for permanent appointment as a part-time law enforcement officer under K.S.A. 74-5607a and amendments thereto.

    (4) Subsection (1)(i) of this section shall not apply to or affect historical reenactors and actors when engaged in performances and demonstrations. Provided, however, this subsection shall only apply to those performances and demonstrations which have been approved in advance in writing by the city manager or his designee.

    (5) Subsection (1) (d), (e), (f), and (g) shall not apply to any person who sells, purchases, possesses or carries a firearm, device or attachment which has been rendered unserviceable by steel weld in the chamber and marriage weld of the barrel to the receiver and which has been registered in the national firearms registration and transfer record in compliance with 26 U.S.C. 5841 et seq. in the name of such person and, if such person transfers such firearm, device or attachment to another person, has been so registered in the transferee's name by the transferor.

    (6) Subsections 1(d),
    1(e), 1 (f), and 1 (g) shall not apply to any person authorized to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to the Personal and Family Protection Act, K.S.A. 75-7c01 through K.S.A. 75-7c18, and amendments thereto.


    (7) Subsection 1 (d) shall not apply to licensed hunters or fishermen, while engaged in hunting or fishing;

    (8) It shall be a defense that the defendant is within an exemption.

    Thank you

    Lance Garrison


  • #22
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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    'Sorry saefrog... but you're a typical 'statist' with a statist's myopic*point of view.* Your mind is full of 'clutter'. The answer is right under your nose:

    Kansas Constitution Bill of Rights 4

    The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security; but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be tolerated, and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power.

    There are no 'conditions' for the free exercise of a 'Right'.* Government cannot grant Rights, only recognize, restrict or deny them.* Permits and license are merely government contrivance*requiring a fee be paid for the limited exercise of a Right as regulated by such government.

    Y'all can pat yourselves on the back 'n tell yourselves what a good job you've done or do... but it's merely an endemic continuance of government denial of the right to bear arms.* This attitude is carried out by the badged JBT's who gladly lick the hands that sign their paychecks even tho they have taken the oath of office to support and defend such Constitutional issues.* Hypocrytes all.* It's a sham.

    You talk of 'gangs' bearing arms openly... Bullsnort!* You and I both know that criminals never carry openly.* You and I both know that the Gun Control Act of 1968 as detailed in 18USC and duplicated in nearly every State law prohibits certain persons from possessing, much less bearing arms for the common good.* They're criminals... they do it anyway (concealed).* Until you can 'legislate' human behavior... this will continue.* Open Carry is a deterent against criminal predation. Period. *

    I carry pretty much anything I want openly everyday... w/o incident.* We've been doing that here a*LONG time... since statehood in 1912 'n prior as a Territory.* Of course we have gangs and illegals 'n smugglers 'n all sorts of criminals... but the people are not disallowed the exercise of the Right for their self defense as they so choose.

    You so-called 'educated' persons seem to know everything and understand nothing. *An all too-common condition.

    *
    Sonora,

    Good points. I especially value the idea of not disallowing the exercise of Rights by free citizens. I also agree with the point of about law enforcement and city officials becoming more concerned about making their jobs easier, than not imposing on the freedoms of the citizens with which they are supposed to be serving.

    The points raised by SAEFROG fall on deaf ears, because the potential of gang bangers open carrying, or officers having to respond to calls about OC citizens are a joke in comparison to imposing on what is right. The freedom and ability to defend one self at any time/place is more important than using OC ordinances, or CHL licensing for the matter, to some how make the city run easier for the civil servants. Perhaps an OC culture would reduce the effectiveness of criminals to operate like in other countries, e.g. Switzerland... This is why citizens should push for and exercise their rights.

    The city of Wichita has gone too far in the past with its local restrictions, and I am appalled at the spineless city officials who can not even respond to the public with an official stance on this hot issue. At least the city attorney in Topeka bothered to make a public statement defining OC to the Chief of Police. I hope the Wichita Eagle steps up and pushes the city of Wichita to address this- Good or Bad.

    Also, if city officials try to pass oppressive language to the current pro OC ordinance, the Liberal Fascists will be revealed and kicked out office like the other progressive, limousine, liberals who are going to get voted out office in the next major elections... This will definitely give more heat to the movement and add more pressure on Wichita to stop its Nazi-influenced gun ordinances.

  • #23
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    saefrog wrote:
    First off I want to say that in no way am I trying to personally attack anyone or you, Marine300. But I am attacking facts that have been said on this site. If attacking facts that you said is in essence attacking you than I am sorry you feel that way. But if that is the case, then saying untrue facts about Wichita, the dumb cops, and misunderstanding the intent of the city code is also in essence attacking me. The way I look at it, so far everyone I've seen on here supports each other on our quest for our 2nd amendment rights. The only thing we are in difference is how the city attorneys and police are enforcing the current gun laws. That is up to debate but nothing else.

    Second, I bring up points that others (not me) will have issues with open carry but both Marine300 and Sonora attacked these statements as if I believe or stated them. If I said "some people" believe President Obama is a great president, don't go attacking me when in fact I think he is a lunatic and I helped on the presidential campaign for Huckabee and have been a die hard right wing conservative who supports gun rights. Guys perception is reality and by saying "You and I both know that criminals never carry openly," is your perception but you are not stating any facts to back that up because the left could easily say "criminals will do whatever the law allows them too just like you and I can". So who would be right and why? The key is we have to give data and facts that educated the left not random opinionated statements with to facts or at least clout that what you are saying is reasonable because of your professional experience etc.

    So, lets look at the facts. Senora Rebel mentioned a 40 year old law but didn't go into much detail when he said "You and I both know that the Gun Control Act of 1968 as detailed in 18USC and duplicated in nearly every State law prohibits certain persons from possessing, much less bearing arms for the common good" Well it he says "certain" so lets find out what "certain" really means and how it is applied in Kansas and not Arkansas. According to our new CCL license the only people that could NOT carry a gun on the streets are:

    1) 21 years old
    2) someone who had tried to commit suicide in the past 2 years.
    3) A citizen of the United States
    4) A resident of Kansas for 6 months.
    5) No Felony convictions (misdemeanors like assault on a law enforcement officer or** a gang related fight, tagging, etc is fine!)
    6) No DV charges
    7) No carry concealed convictions within the past 5 years.
    8) Two Dui's within the past 5 years.
    9) No drug convictions within the past 5 years.
    10) Physical deformities that would prevent you from safe handling.
    11) A judged disabled.
    12) Any current pending charges for felony, or DV charges.
    13) Dishonorable discharge from the military.
    14) Contempt of court in regards to Child Support.
    15) Certain applicable restraining orders
    16) Adjudicated or committed as having a mental disorder.
    17) Ordered by court to receive treatment for mental illness or drug abuse

    This is it folks, this is all she wrote. Now, looking at this list where does it say that a known self admitting gang member cannot* get a carry concealed license? Keep in mind being a known gang member is not a crime in Kansas and you don't have to have been found guilty of a felony to be entered into the city computer at a known gang member. And if you say "that would not happen" would you be willing to sign a document with a liberal democrat that if one single gang member EVER got a license and then lawfully open carried that you would agree to make Kansas a Non carry concealed state forever? If you are not able to make such an agreement then you can't convince that left wings that it won't happen because you need to data or proof that it couldn't.

    Here is another side point, keep mind my personal friend is the one that drafted up the CCL laws. Some of them are silly like #14 that if you owe child support you can't get a carry concealed. My personal opinion is that this is silly that if you are an outstanding citizen but lost your job and get back on child support payments you can't carry concealed but if you are known gang member you can! I asked him about this and he said that when making laws you sit down with bleeding liberals at a table and in order to get laws passed you have to concede and agree on issue in order to pass it no matter how silly it is. You can't just spit stuff like "that would never happen" without any facts or data to back it up. If you think it would never happen then fine, back up and put it to law that if it did this or that would happen. You have to acknowledge the liberals crazy mindset in order to pass things, you can't have it all your way. And besides lets look at the facts, my friend knew that this would not get researched anyhow and just added it to appease the liberals. Think about #16 or #2, how do you prove this? You can't look up in a government computer and find peoples medical records. Police officers can't even call a doctors office and ask if they are a patient due to the doctor/patient confidentiality.

    To prove this, my close friend who was diagnosed with PTSD and received treatment for his mental illness on #17 & #16 got his carry concealed license last year!!! Folks most of this stuff is just impossible for them to find, it was put in there to appease the liberals so they would approve the CCL and say "look what I did to make sure everyone is safe etc etc now re-elect me." The only background check they do is a NCIC which is the FBI background check in checking for convictions though a court of clerk which would be felonies or DV misdemeanors only. Your health records are not public knowledge and without a subpoena/warrant from a judge would they ever know. Also, to date being a gang member is not listed into NCIC and even if it was, is not a exclusion from getting a CCL in Kansas.

    Marine0300 you said "I do want to address a couple of things.* After the Personal & Family Protection Act was passed in 2006 (concealed carry) cities including Wichita, Topeka, & many other municipalities updated their weapons laws and yes they didn’t realize they allowed open carry." Although I did talk to the head attorney for the city of Wichita and she said that they did this on purpose for the reasons I listed on the last post, I can see why someone could call the "BS flag" and think it was a mistake. But, at any rate if you are right the error will be fixed at the next City Council meeting and the ordinance will clearly state that Wichita is NOT OPEN CARRY. Not even for law enforcement who are off duty! So really much of this debate is a mute point because this is all being fixed shortly.

    "Finally since Kansas does not have preemption on OC I believe more has to be done than writing articles in the paper and joining a PAC.** People have to organize at the lowest level and elect gun friendly officials to the city councils.* I believe the NRA and PAC can do better at the state level fighting for preemption.* Kansas needs one uniform gun law for OC from corner to corner." I concur but when I said joining a PAC typically that his what a PAC does, they have an agenda and raise money to donate to the candidate that supports them. I'm currently a member of a PAC on a different issue and raise money for city council members to support our cause. And the local city council and State Reps will be the ones effecting Kansas. But you are right, if the NRA can force the Supreme Court to rule the 2nd Amendment to all states then this will be a win for everyone and not just locally.

    Senora Rebel I apologize if I didn't answer any of your statements, it seemed I was a little confused by.....well pretty much all of it. I'm glad that you can open carry in Arkansas and I know what the 2nd amendment stated for federally before the issue was left up to the states but this forum is talking about Wichita, Kansas which is NOT open carry and I've personally seen multiple people arrested and prosecuted and held up in court for such. And if a law degree and 10 years of law enforcement experience in the state someone actually lives in makes people "understand nothing" then us Kansans are guilty as charged.


    SAEFROG,

    Since you want to discuss facts and research, I am sure you are aware of the recent FBI study which concludes that criminals do not open carry handguns and “eschew holsters” because they do not want to draw attention to themselves. Anthony Pinizzotto, et al., Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers, FBI (2006) (finding that violent criminals carefully "conceal" their guns and "eschew holsters"), summary available at http://www.forcesciencenews.com/home...html?serial=62.

    So, your point about Gang Bangers carrying in the open is mute and void...

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    I have been scouring the City Of Wichita's website trying to find any information on new ordinances concerning carrying a handgun, and so far I have found ZIP. The State has information on its website, the County has information on their website, but good ole City of Wichita has nothing, or I sure can't find it. You would think they would have a link to this information making it easy and clear on what the city ordinances are concerning open carry and concealed carry. It is almost like they want to make it as difficult as possible to get the needed information, and it should be in easy to understand language. Not all of us have a degree in law.

    They say it is up to us to learn the laws, but if we can't easily find it, what good is it?

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    I will agree with you on that. It's a travesty when any governing body doesn't take the effort to make information as readily available as humanly possible to the public it applies to. It's almost as if they'd prefer to fall back onto the old adage of "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse."

    AC

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