What are the open carry laws in wichita and the surrounding area

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saefrog


I love your I know everything you know nothing stance on open carry in wichita.

PS. If the law in wichita said you cant open carry then why are the going to change it to say no one may open cary??????????

We know you know everything so explain it to us please.

Then name all of theCCH holders who have been sent to jail for open cary in wichita.

(6) Subsections 1(d), 1(e), 1 (f), and 1 (g) shall not apply to any person authorized to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to the Personal and Family Protection Act, K.S.A. 75-7c01 through K.S.A. 75-7c18, and amendments thereto.

(e) Carrying on one's person any unconcealed, loaded firearm, while on property open to the public, except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business;

It only matters what the law states not what you think your friend intended.

[align=center]Wichita, Kansas - Code of Ordinances[/align]
Sec. 5.88.010. Unlawful use of weapons.

(1) Unlawful use of a weapon is knowingly:

(a) Selling, manufacturing, purchasing, possessing or carrying any bludgeon, sandclub, metal knuckles or throwing star, or any knife, commonly referred to as a switch-blade, which, having the appearance of a pocket knife, also has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, or by other mechanical contrivance, or any knife having a blade that opens or falls or is ejected into position by the force of gravity or by an outward, downward or centrifugal thrust or movement;

(b) Carrying concealed on one's person, or possessing with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, blackjack, slingshot, nightstick, nun-chucks, sap gloves, tomahawk, dangerous knife, straight-edged razor, stiletto or any other dangerous or deadly instrument of like character, except that an ordinary pocket knife with no blade more than four inches in length shall not be construed to be a dangerous knife or a dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument;

(c) Carrying unconcealed on one's person or in any vehicle under one's immediate control, with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, blackjack, slingshot, nightstick, nunchucks, sap gloves, tomahawk, dangerous knife, straight-edged razor, stiletto or any other dangerous or deadly instrument of like character, except that an ordinary pocket knife with no blade more than four inches in length shall not be construed to be a dangerous knife or a dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument;

(d) Carrying any pistol, revolver or other firearm concealed on one's person, while on property open to the public, except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business;

(e) Carrying on one's person any unconcealed, loaded firearm, while on property open to the public, except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business;

(f) Carrying in any vehicle under one's immediate control, while on property open to the public, any loaded firearm, except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business;

(g) Carrying in any air, land or water vehicle an unloaded firearm that is not encased in a container which completely encloses the firearm;

(h) Carrying a loaded or unloaded firearm in a courtroom or within City Hall;

(i) Drawing a pistol, revolver, knife or any other deadly weapon upon any person.

(j) As used in this section, "throwing star" means any instrument, without handles, consisting of a metal plate having three or more radiating points with one or more sharp edges and designed in the shape of a polygon, trefoil, cross, star, diamond or other geometric shape, manufactured for use as a weapon for throwing.

(2) Subsections (1)(a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f) and (g), (h), and (i) of this subsection shall not apply to or affect any of the following:

(a) Law enforcement officers, or any person summoned by any such officers to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while actually engaged in assisting such officer;

(b) Wardens, superintendents, directors, security personnel and keepers of prisons, penitentiaries, jails and other institutions for the detention of persons accused or convicted of a crime, while acting within the scope of their authority;

(c) Members of the armed services or reserve forces of the United States or the Kansas National Guard while in the performance of their official duty; or

(d) Manufacture of, transportation to, or sale of weapons to a person authorized under (a) through (c) of this subsection to possess such weapons.

(e) Qualified law enforcement officers or qualified retired law enforcement officers pursuant to the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004, 18 U.S.C. 926B and 18 U.S.C. 926C and amendments thereto.

(3) Subsection (1)(d), (e) and (f) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

(a) Watchmen, while actually engaged in the performance of the duties of their employment;

(b) Private detectives licensed by the state to carry the firearm involved while actually engaged in the duties of their employment;

(c) Detectives or special agents regularly employed by railroad companies or other corporations to perform full-time security or investigative service, while actually engaged in the duties of their employment; or

(d) The State Fire Marshal, the State Fire Marshal's deputies or any member of a fire department authorized to carry a firearm pursuant to K.S.A. 31-157 and amendments thereto, while engaged in an investigation in which such fire marshal, deputy or member is authorized to carry a firearm pursuant to K.S.A. 31-157 and amendments thereto.

(e) Special deputy sheriffs described in K.S.A. 2001 Supp. 19-827, and amendments thereto, who have satisfactorily completed the basic course of instruction required for permanent appointment as a part-time law enforcement officer under K.S.A. 74-5607a and amendments thereto.

(4) Subsection (1)(i) of this section shall not apply to or affect historical reenactors and actors when engaged in performances and demonstrations. Provided, however, this subsection shall only apply to those performances and demonstrations which have been approved in advance in writing by the city manager or his designee.

(5) Subsection (1) (d), (e), (f), and (g) shall not apply to any person who sells, purchases, possesses or carries a firearm, device or attachment which has been rendered unserviceable by steel weld in the chamber and marriage weld of the barrel to the receiver and which has been registered in the national firearms registration and transfer record in compliance with 26 U.S.C. 5841 et seq. in the name of such person and, if such person transfers such firearm, device or attachment to another person, has been so registered in the transferee's name by the transferor.

(6) Subsections 1(d), 1(e), 1 (f), and 1 (g) shall not apply to any person authorized to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to the Personal and Family Protection Act, K.S.A. 75-7c01 through K.S.A. 75-7c18, and amendments thereto.

(7) Subsection 1 (d) shall not apply to licensed hunters or fishermen, while engaged in hunting or fishing;

(8) It shall be a defense that the defendant is within an exemption.

Thank you

Lance Garrison

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Sonora Rebel wrote:

'Sorry saefrog... but you're a typical 'statist' with a statist's myopic point of view.  Your mind is full of 'clutter'. The answer is right under your nose:

Kansas Constitution Bill of Rights 4

The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security; but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be tolerated, and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power.

There are no 'conditions' for the free exercise of a 'Right'.  Government cannot grant Rights, only recognize, restrict or deny them.  Permits and license are merely government contrivance requiring a fee be paid for the limited exercise of a Right as regulated by such government.

Y'all can pat yourselves on the back 'n tell yourselves what a good job you've done or do... but it's merely an endemic continuance of government denial of the right to bear arms.  This attitude is carried out by the badged JBT's who gladly lick the hands that sign their paychecks even tho they have taken the oath of office to support and defend such Constitutional issues.  Hypocrytes all.  It's a sham.

You talk of 'gangs' bearing arms openly... Bullsnort!  You and I both know that criminals never carry openly.  You and I both know that the Gun Control Act of 1968 as detailed in 18USC and duplicated in nearly every State law prohibits certain persons from possessing, much less bearing arms for the common good.  They're criminals... they do it anyway (concealed).  Until you can 'legislate' human behavior... this will continue.  Open Carry is a deterent against criminal predation. Period.  

I carry pretty much anything I want openly everyday... w/o incident.  We've been doing that here a LONG time... since statehood in 1912 'n prior as a Territory.  Of course we have gangs and illegals 'n smugglers 'n all sorts of criminals... but the people are not disallowed the exercise of the Right for their self defense as they so choose.

You so-called 'educated' persons seem to know everything and understand nothing.  An all too-common condition.

 

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Sonora,

Good points. I especially value the idea of not disallowing the exercise of Rights by free citizens. I also agree with the point of about law enforcement and city officials becoming more concerned about making their jobs easier, than not imposing on the freedoms of the citizens with which they are supposed to be serving.

The points raised by SAEFROG fall on deaf ears, because the potential of gang bangers open carrying, or officers having to respond to calls about OC citizens are a joke in comparison to imposing on what is right. The freedom and ability to defend one self at any time/place is more important than using OC ordinances, or CHL licensing for the matter, to some how make the city run easier for the civil servants. Perhaps an OC culture would reduce the effectiveness of criminals to operate like in other countries, e.g. Switzerland... This is why citizens should push for and exercise their rights.

The city of Wichita has gone too far in the past with its local restrictions, and I am appalled at the spineless city officials who can not even respond to the public with an official stance on this hot issue. At least the city attorney in Topeka bothered to make a public statement defining OC to the Chief of Police. I hope the Wichita Eagle steps up and pushes the city of Wichita to address this- Good or Bad.

Also, if city officials try to pass oppressive language to the current pro OC ordinance, the Liberal Fascists will be revealed and kicked out office like the other progressive, limousine, liberals who are going to get voted out office in the next major elections... This will definitely give more heat to the movement and add more pressure on Wichita to stop its Nazi-influenced gun ordinances.

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saefrog wrote:

First off I want to say that in no way am I trying to personally attack anyone or you, Marine300. But I am attacking facts that have been said on this site. If attacking facts that you said is in essence attacking you than I am sorry you feel that way. But if that is the case, then saying untrue facts about Wichita, the dumb cops, and misunderstanding the intent of the city code is also in essence attacking me. The way I look at it, so far everyone I've seen on here supports each other on our quest for our 2nd amendment rights. The only thing we are in difference is how the city attorneys and police are enforcing the current gun laws. That is up to debate but nothing else.

Second, I bring up points that others (not me) will have issues with open carry but both Marine300 and Sonora attacked these statements as if I believe or stated them. If I said "some people" believe President Obama is a great president, don't go attacking me when in fact I think he is a lunatic and I helped on the presidential campaign for Huckabee and have been a die hard right wing conservative who supports gun rights. Guys perception is reality and by saying "You and I both know that criminals never carry openly," is your perception but you are not stating any facts to back that up because the left could easily say "criminals will do whatever the law allows them too just like you and I can". So who would be right and why? The key is we have to give data and facts that educated the left not random opinionated statements with to facts or at least clout that what you are saying is reasonable because of your professional experience etc.

So, lets look at the facts. Senora Rebel mentioned a 40 year old law but didn't go into much detail when he said "You and I both know that the Gun Control Act of 1968 as detailed in 18USC and duplicated in nearly every State law prohibits certain persons from possessing, much less bearing arms for the common good" Well it he says "certain" so lets find out what "certain" really means and how it is applied in Kansas and not Arkansas. According to our new CCL license the only people that could NOT carry a gun on the streets are:

1) 21 years old
2) someone who had tried to commit suicide in the past 2 years.
3) A citizen of the United States
4) A resident of Kansas for 6 months.
5) No Felony convictions (misdemeanors like assault on a law enforcement officer or   a gang related fight, tagging, etc is fine!)
6) No DV charges
7) No carry concealed convictions within the past 5 years.
8) Two Dui's within the past 5 years.
9) No drug convictions within the past 5 years.
10) Physical deformities that would prevent you from safe handling.
11) A judged disabled.
12) Any current pending charges for felony, or DV charges.
13) Dishonorable discharge from the military.
14) Contempt of court in regards to Child Support.
15) Certain applicable restraining orders
16) Adjudicated or committed as having a mental disorder.
17) Ordered by court to receive treatment for mental illness or drug abuse

This is it folks, this is all she wrote. Now, looking at this list where does it say that a known self admitting gang member cannot  get a carry concealed license? Keep in mind being a known gang member is not a crime in Kansas and you don't have to have been found guilty of a felony to be entered into the city computer at a known gang member. And if you say "that would not happen" would you be willing to sign a document with a liberal democrat that if one single gang member EVER got a license and then lawfully open carried that you would agree to make Kansas a Non carry concealed state forever? If you are not able to make such an agreement then you can't convince that left wings that it won't happen because you need to data or proof that it couldn't.

Here is another side point, keep mind my personal friend is the one that drafted up the CCL laws. Some of them are silly like #14 that if you owe child support you can't get a carry concealed. My personal opinion is that this is silly that if you are an outstanding citizen but lost your job and get back on child support payments you can't carry concealed but if you are known gang member you can! I asked him about this and he said that when making laws you sit down with bleeding liberals at a table and in order to get laws passed you have to concede and agree on issue in order to pass it no matter how silly it is. You can't just spit stuff like "that would never happen" without any facts or data to back it up. If you think it would never happen then fine, back up and put it to law that if it did this or that would happen. You have to acknowledge the liberals crazy mindset in order to pass things, you can't have it all your way. And besides lets look at the facts, my friend knew that this would not get researched anyhow and just added it to appease the liberals. Think about #16 or #2, how do you prove this? You can't look up in a government computer and find peoples medical records. Police officers can't even call a doctors office and ask if they are a patient due to the doctor/patient confidentiality.

To prove this, my close friend who was diagnosed with PTSD and received treatment for his mental illness on #17 & #16 got his carry concealed license last year!!! Folks most of this stuff is just impossible for them to find, it was put in there to appease the liberals so they would approve the CCL and say "look what I did to make sure everyone is safe etc etc now re-elect me." The only background check they do is a NCIC which is the FBI background check in checking for convictions though a court of clerk which would be felonies or DV misdemeanors only. Your health records are not public knowledge and without a subpoena/warrant from a judge would they ever know. Also, to date being a gang member is not listed into NCIC and even if it was, is not a exclusion from getting a CCL in Kansas.

Marine0300 you said "I do want to address a couple of things.  After the Personal & Family Protection Act was passed in 2006 (concealed carry) cities including Wichita, Topeka, & many other municipalities updated their weapons laws and yes they didn’t realize they allowed open carry." Although I did talk to the head attorney for the city of Wichita and she said that they did this on purpose for the reasons I listed on the last post, I can see why someone could call the "BS flag" and think it was a mistake. But, at any rate if you are right the error will be fixed at the next City Council meeting and the ordinance will clearly state that Wichita is NOT OPEN CARRY. Not even for law enforcement who are off duty! So really much of this debate is a mute point because this is all being fixed shortly.

"Finally since Kansas does not have preemption on OC I believe more has to be done than writing articles in the paper and joining a PAC.   People have to organize at the lowest level and elect gun friendly officials to the city councils.  I believe the NRA and PAC can do better at the state level fighting for preemption.  Kansas needs one uniform gun law for OC from corner to corner." I concur but when I said joining a PAC typically that his what a PAC does, they have an agenda and raise money to donate to the candidate that supports them. I'm currently a member of a PAC on a different issue and raise money for city council members to support our cause. And the local city council and State Reps will be the ones effecting Kansas. But you are right, if the NRA can force the Supreme Court to rule the 2nd Amendment to all states then this will be a win for everyone and not just locally.

Senora Rebel I apologize if I didn't answer any of your statements, it seemed I was a little confused by.....well pretty much all of it. I'm glad that you can open carry in Arkansas and I know what the 2nd amendment stated for federally before the issue was left up to the states but this forum is talking about Wichita, Kansas which is NOT open carry and I've personally seen multiple people arrested and prosecuted and held up in court for such. And if a law degree and 10 years of law enforcement experience in the state someone actually lives in makes people "understand nothing" then us Kansans are guilty as charged.

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SAEFROG,

Since you want to discuss facts and research, I am sure you are aware of the recent FBI study which concludes that criminals do not open carry handguns and “eschew holsters” because they do not want to draw attention to themselves. Anthony Pinizzotto, et al., Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers, FBI (2006) (finding that violent criminals carefully "conceal" their guns and "eschew holsters"), summary available at http://www.forcesciencenews.com/home/detail.html?serial=62.

So, your point about Gang Bangers carrying in the open is mute and void...

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I have been scouring the City Of Wichita's website trying to find any information on new ordinances concerning carrying a handgun, and so far I have found ZIP. The State has information on its website, the County has information on their website, but good ole City of Wichita has nothing, or I sure can't find it. You would think they would have a link to this information making it easy and clear on what the city ordinances are concerning open carry and concealed carry. It is almost like they want to make it as difficult as possible to get the needed information, and it should be in easy to understand language. Not all of us have a degree in law.

They say it is up to us to learn the laws, but if we can't easily find it, what good is it?

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I will agree with you on that. It's a travesty when any governing body doesn't take the effort to make information as readily available as humanly possible to the public it applies to. It's almost as if they'd prefer to fall back onto the old adage of "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse."

AC

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marine0300 wrote:

Open Carry in Kansas I believe is going to change for the better in the next couple of years.

One, if McDonald beats Chicago over the city gun ban law suit, not only will things change in Chicago but everywhere in the US. Bans of any type will go away. Hopefully!!!

No where in the Kansas open carry law does it state cities and counties can ban. Regulate is all the state gives localities. Municipalities have taken advantage of the regulate clause by banning.

Hopefully this will all change with the McDonald case. Pray he wins!! This case will hopefully help KS gun owners achieve full preemption with open carry. We have full preemption on concealed carry.

Have a great week

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I am looking& I cannot find anywhere where a city can infringe on a specific state constitutional right.

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sha-ul wrote:

marine0300 wrote:

Open Carry in Kansas I believe is going to change for the better in the next couple of years.

One, if McDonald beats Chicago over the city gun ban law suit, not only will things change in Chicago but everywhere in the US. Bans of any type will go away. Hopefully!!!

No where in the Kansas open carry law does it state cities and counties can ban. Regulate is all the state gives localities. Municipalities have taken advantage of the regulate clause by banning.

Hopefully this will all change with the McDonald case. Pray he wins!! This case will hopefully help KS gun owners achieve full preemption with open carry. We have full preemption on concealed carry.

Have a great week

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I am looking& I cannot find anywhere where a city can infringe on a specific state constitutional right.

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I agree with you, but City officials will continue to write this crap into ordinances until citizens stand up and do something about it. I suspect that the City will pass ordinance changes to prevent OC by CCL holders and repeal the earlier changes allowing OC by CCL holders. If this happens, everyone needs to challenge this with the city in open session, contact Tim Potter at the Wichita Eagle (he normally writes about this stuff), and organize a protest.

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Gentleman, as I said earlier would happen the ordinance was amended to make it more clear that Wichita NOT open carry but carry concealed with license only. City code 5.88.010 was changed to read more clearly on Dec 22nd and after two publications in the local paper will become law. The minutes to this city council meeting can viewed at:

www.wichita.gov


I continue to agree with Damian that this is a debate about education and pushing to change the current law because Wichita is in fact carry concealed only city at proof above.

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Saefrog,

I want you to know I truly believe your anti open carry!

Proof is you only joined to blogg about one topic and came back to tell us with pride, and rub in our face,that Wichita closed the loophole.

Nowhere in Kansas Law does it say a city can ban only regulate. Read the law below.

You will not have the last laugh.

Marine0300

---------------------------------


http://www.kslegislature.org/legsrv-statutes/getStatute.do [size=]

[size=[font="Times New Roman"]][/size]Here is the section of statute that deals with Right to Carry:[size=][/size]

[size=[font="Times New Roman"][/font]][/size]75-7c-01 through 75-7c-26[size=][/size]

[size=[font="Times New Roman"][/font]][/size]Here is the section of statute that deals with open carry:[size=][/size]

[size=[font="Times New Roman"][/font]][/size]12-16,124 subsection (2):[size=][/size]

[size=[font="Times New Roman"][/font]][/size]12-16,124. Firearms and ammunition; regulation by city or county, limitations. (a) No city or county shall adopt any ordinance, resolution or regulation, and no agent of any city or county shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, transfer, ownership, storage or transporting of firearms or ammunition, or any component or combination thereof. Except as provided in subsection (b) and subsection (a) of K.S.A. 2007 Supp. 75-7c11, and amendments thereto, any such ordinance, resolution or regulation adopted prior to the effective date of this 2007 act shall be null and void. [size=][/size]

(b) Nothing in this section shall: [size=][/size]

(1) Prohibit a law enforcement officer, as defined in K.S.A. 22-2202, and amendments thereto, from acting within the scope of such officer's duties; [size=][/size]

(2) prohibit a city or county from regulating the manner of openly carrying a loaded firearm on one's person; or in the immediate control of a person, not licensed under the personal and family protection act while on property open to the public; [size=][/size]

(3) prohibit a city or county from regulating in any manner the carrying of any firearm in any jail, juvenile detention facility, prison, courthouse, courtroom or city hall; or [size=][/size]

(4) prohibit a city or county from adopting an ordinance, resolution or regulation requiring a firearm transported in any air, land or water vehicle to be unloaded and encased in a container which completely encloses the firearm or any less restrictive provision governing the transporting of firearms, provided such ordinance, resolution or regulation shall not apply to persons licensed under the personal and family protection act. [size=][/size]

(c) Except as provided in subsection (b) of this section and subsection (a) of K.S.A. 2007 Supp. 75-7c11, and amendments thereto, no person shall be prosecuted or convicted of a violation of any ordinance, resolution or regulation of a city or county which regulates the storage or transportation of a firearm if such person (1) is storing or transporting the firearm without violating any provision of the Kansas criminal code or (2) is otherwise transporting the firearm in a lawful manner. [size=][/size]

(d) No person shall be prosecuted under any ordinance, resolution or regulation for transporting a firearm in any air, land or water vehicle if the firearm is unloaded and encased in a container which completely encloses the firearm. [size=][/size]

History: L. 2005, ch. 141, § 10; L. 2007, ch. 166, § 1; May 3.[size=][/size]


[/size][/font]

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marine0300 wrote:

[size=[font="Times New Roman"][/font]]12-16,124. Firearms and ammunition; regulation by city or county, limitations. (a) No city or county shall adopt any ordinance, resolution or regulation, and no agent of any city or county shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, transfer, ownership, storage or transporting of firearms or ammunition, or any component or combination thereof. Except as provided in subsection (b) and subsection (a) of K.S.A. 2007 Supp. 75-7c11, and amendments thereto, any such ordinance, resolution or regulation adopted prior to the effective date of this 2007 act shall be null and void. [size=]

(b) Nothing in this section shall: [size=]

(1) Prohibit a law enforcement officer, as defined in K.S.A. 22-2202, and amendments thereto, from acting within the scope of such officer's duties; [size=]

(2) prohibit a city or county from regulating the manner of openly carrying a loaded firearm on one's person; or in the immediate control of a person, not licensed under the personal and family protection act while on property open to the public; [size=]

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Marine, look at section 2 as saying A city MAY regulate the manner of openly carrying a loaded firearm.....


this is their legal claim to prohibit open carry, which in my opinion is blatantly unconstitutional per the Ks constitution.
But, Our best chance may come after this coming Nov, when there is an amendment
slated to be on the ballot reemphasizing the Ks 2A & that it specifically applies to individuals, not just the state. (overturning a Ks supreme court ruling from the 30's)
once this is done,& it specifically guarantees the Individual right to bear arms in the defense of one's self the the city WILL not have any fictional skirt to hide behind.

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Well this really sucks guys. I missed the article written by Tim, and the link is no longer working. Anyone have a copy of it?

The minutes for that meeting are not available on the Wichita.gov website. The Dec 15 agenda states, in regards to City Code 5.88.010 (and I'm paraphrasing here):

Removing some cloudy restrictions on what is considered an illegal knife, currently, loose interpretation would consider anything with a thumb-stud for opening illegal. Not that it matters much since state law overrides the city on this anyway. Semantics.

Adding provisions to subsection 6 allowing certain city/district/county prosecutors and attorneys to carry concealed while performing their duties, if authorized by their superior(s)

Modifying subsection 6(a) to read as follows:

Before:

(6) Subsections 1(d), 1(e), 1 (f), and 1 (g) shall not apply to any person authorized to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to the Personal and Family Protection Act, K.S.A. 75-7c01 through K.S.A. 75-7c18, and amendments thereto

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And After:

(6) Subsections 1(d), 1(f), and 1(g) shall not apply to:
(a) any person carrying a concealed weapon as authorized by K.S.A. 2008 Supp 75-7c01 through K.S.A. 75-7c17, and amendments thereto
(b) bla bla city attorneys can carry concealed bla bla

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The big change here is the removal subsection 6(e) from this exclusion, meaning OC is no longer OK in Wichita.

I know there is some concern here that if you accidentally expose you can be charged with open carrying. This has already been covered by the CCH legislation and your INTENT to carry concealed is the important part here. The state AG supports us on this. This opinion is strengthened by the wording of the city code:

Section 1. 5.88.010 UNLAWFUL USE OF WEAPONS
(1) Unlawful use of a weapon is knowingly:
(a) selling manufacturing, purchasing, possessing or carrying any bludgeon.....
...snip...
(d) Carrying any pistol, revolver or other firearm concealed on one's person, while on
property open to the public, except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of
business
(e) Carrying on one's person any unconcealed, loaded firearm, while on property
open to the public, except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business

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Note the key word here being KNOWINGLY, meaning you MEANT to do it.

I should also point out section 7 of the same city code:

(7) Subsection 1 (d) shall not apply to licensed hunters or fishermen, while
engaged in hunting or fishing

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So I guess it's OK to carry concealed while you're fishing, CCH or not . . .

My biggest concern is subsection is this part:

(1) Unlawful use of a weapon is knowingly:
...snip...
(i) Drawing a pistol, revolver, knife or any other deadly weapon upon any person.

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Apparently it's not OK to defend yourself while inside the city limits.

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It's a PDF, so the formatting doesn't copy and paste well.
http://www.wichitagov.org/NR/rdonlyres/3D7A034E-345A-4234-8FB8-C0B15D7599F3/0/1222200948580WPDweaponsordinanceClean.pdf


Seems like Open Carry must be Unloaded like California...My brother is a cop and he always interpreted the firearms laws that way, e.g. non-felon citizens can carry unloaded firearms in approved locations publicly. I think this was to allow folks to go to gun shows, dealers, gun ranges, etc...without having a felony issue. I suppose you could walk around with unloaded assault weapons, too...



(First Published in The Wichita Eagle on December 25, 2009) 082107
ORDINANCE NO.48-580
AN ORDINANCE AMENDING SECTION 5.88.010 OF THE CODE OF THE CITY OF WICHITA, KANSAS, PERTAINING TO THE CRIME OF UNLAWFUL USE OF WEAPONS AND REPEAL OF THE ORIGINAL SECTION 5.88.010
BE IT ORDAINED BY THE GOVERNING BODY OF THE CITY OF WICHITA, KANSAS:
Section 1. 5.88.010 of the Code of the City of Wichita, Kansas, shall read as follows:
(1) Unlawful use of a weapon is knowingly:
(a) Selling, manufacturing, purchasing, possessing or carrying any bludgeon, sandclub, metal knuckles or throwing star, or any knife, commonly referred to as a switch-blade, which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, or any knife having a blade that opens or falls or is ejected into position by the force of gravity or by an outward, downward or centrifugal thrust or movement;
(b) Carrying concealed on one's person, or possessing with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, blackjack, slungshot, nightstick, nun-chucks, sap gloves, tomahawk, dangerous knife, straight-edged razor, stiletto or any other dangerous or deadly instrument of like character, except that an ordinary pocket knife with no blade more than four inches in length shall not be construed to be a dangerous knife or a dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument;
(c) Carrying unconcealed on one's person or in any vehicle under one's immediate control, with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy,
blackjack, slungshot, nightstick, nunchucks, sap gloves, tomahawk, dangerous knife, straight-edged razor, stiletto or any other dangerous or deadly instrument of like character, except that an ordinary pocket knife with no blade more than four inches in length shall not be construed to be a dangerous knife or a dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument;
(d) Carrying any pistol, revolver or other firearm concealed on one's person, while on property open to the public, except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business;
(e) Carrying on one's person any unconcealed, loaded firearm, while on property open to the public, except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business;
(f) Carrying in any vehicle under one's immediate control, while on property open to the public, any loaded firearm, except when on one's land or in one's abode or fixed place of business;
(g) Carrying in any air, land or water vehicle an unloaded firearm that is not encased in a container which completely encloses the firearm;
(h) Carrying a loaded or unloaded firearm in a courtroom or within City Hall;
(i) Drawing a pistol, revolver, knife or any other deadly weapon upon any person.
(j) As used in this section, “throwing star” means any instrument, without handles, consisting of a metal plate having three or more radiating points with one or more sharp edges and designed in the shape of a polygon, trefoil, cross, star, diamond or other geometric shape, manufactured for use as a weapon for throwing.
(2) Subsections (1)(a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f) and (g), (h), and (i) of this subsection shall not apply to or affect any of the following:
(a) Law enforcement officers, or any person summoned by any such officers to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while actually engaged in assisting such officer;
(b) Wardens, superintendents, directors, security personnel and keepers of prisons, penitentiaries, jails and other institutions for the detention of persons accused or convicted of a crime, while acting within the scope of their authority;
(c) Members of the armed services or reserve forces of the United States or the Kansas National Guard while in the performance of their official duty; or
(d) Manufacture of, transportation to, or sale of weapons to a person authorized under (a) through (c) of this subsection to possess such weapons.
(e) Qualified law enforcement officers or qualified retired law enforcement officers pursuant to the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004, 18 U.S.C. 926B and 18 U.S.C. 926C and amendments thereto.
(3) Subsection (1)(d), (e) and (f) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:
(a) Watchmen, while actually engaged in the performance of the duties of their employment;
(b) Private detectives licensed by the state to carry the firearm involved while actually engaged in the duties of their employment;
(c) Detectives or special agents regularly employed by railroad companies or other corporations to perform full-time security or investigative service, while actually engaged in the duties of their employment; or
(d) The State Fire Marshal, the State Fire Marshal's deputies or any member of a fire department authorized to carry a firearm pursuant to K.S.A. 31-157 and amendments
thereto, while engaged in an investigation in which such fire marshal, deputy or member is authorized to carry a firearm pursuant to K.S.A. 31-157 and amendments thereto.
(e) Special deputy sheriffs described in K.S.A. 2001 Supp. 19-827, and amendments thereto, who have satisfactorily completed the basic course of instruction required for permanent appointment as a part-time law enforcement officer under K.S.A. 74-5607a and amendments thereto.
(4) Subsection (1)(i) of this section shall not apply to or affect historical reenactors and actors when engaged in performances and demonstrations. Provided, however, this subsection shall only apply to those performances and demonstrations which have been approved in advance in writing by the city manager or his designee.
(5) Subsection (1) (d), (e), (f), and (g) shall not apply to any person who sells, purchases, possesses or carries a firearm, device or attachment which has been rendered unserviceable by steel weld in the chamber and marriage weld of the barrel to the receiver and which has been registered in the national firearms registration and transfer record in compliance with 26 U.S.C. 5841 et seq. in the name of such person and, if such person transfers such firearm, device or attachment to another person, has been so registered in the transferee's name by the transferor.
(6) Subsections 1(d), 1 (f), and 1 (g) shall not apply to:
(a) any person carrying a concealed weapon as authorized by K.S.A. 2008 Supp., 75-7c01 through K.S.A. 75-7c17, and amendments thereto.
(b) the United States attorney for the district of Kansas, the attorney general, or any district attorney or county attorney, while actually engaged in the duties of their employment or any activities incidental to such duties; any assistant
United States attorney if authorized by the United States attorney for the district of Kansas and while actually engaged in the duties of their employment or any activities incidental to such duties; any assistant attorney general if authorized by the attorney general and while actually engaged in the duties of their employment or any activities incidental to such duties; or any assistant district attorney or assistant county attorney if authorized by the district attorney or county attorney by whom such assistant is employed and while actually engaged in the duties of their employment or any activities incidental to such duties. The provisions of this paragraph shall not apply to any person not in compliance with Chapter 92, Section 4, of 2009 Session Laws of Kansas, and amendments thereto.
(7) Subsection 1 (d) shall not apply to licensed hunters or fishermen, while
engaged in hunting or fishing;
(8) It shall be a defense that the defendant is within an exemption.
(9) Any person who violates any of the provisions of this section within the corporate limits of the city shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine not to exceed two thousand five hundred dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
(10) In addition to the penalty for violation of any of the provisions of this section, it shall be the duty of the municipal court judge:
(a) To order any weapon seized in connection with such violation which is not a firearm to be forfeited to the city and the same shall be destroyed or caused to be destroyed by the chief of police whenever the weapon is no longer needed for evidence;
(b) To order any weapon seized in connection with such violation when no longer needed for evidentiary purposes, shall, in the discretion of the trial court, be:
(i) Destroyed:
(ii) Forfeited to the Wichita Police Department for use within the police department, for sale to a properly licensed federal firearms dealer or for trading to a properly licensed federal firearms dealer by the police department for other new or used firearms or accessories for the Police Department’s use; or
(iii) Forfeited to the Kansas Bureau of Investigation for law enforcement, testing, comparison or destruction by the Kansas Bureau of Investigation forensic laboratory.
If weapons are sold as authorized above, the proceeds from any such sale shall be credited to the asset seizure and forfeiture fund of the Wichita Police Department. All transactions involving weapons disposed of under this subsection must have the prior approval of the city manager. All sales of weapons are subject to review by the city council;
(c) Any stolen weapon confiscated in connection with any violation of this section other than subdivision (a) of this subsection shall be returned to the person entitled to possession, if known, when the same is no longer needed for evidence. All other weapons shall be disposed of as provided in subsection (9)(a) and (b) of this section.
Section 2. The original of Section 5.88.010 of the Code of the City of Wichita, Kansas, is hereby repealed.
Section 3. This ordinance shall be included in the Code of the City of Wichita, Kansas, and shall be effective upon its passage and publication once in the official city paper.
PASSED by the governing body of the City of Wichita, Kansas, this 22nd day of December, 2009.
_________________________________
Carl Brewer, Mayor
ATTEST:
______________________________
Karen Sublett, City Clerk
Approved as to Form:
______________________________
Gary E. Rebenstorf
Director of Law and City Attorney

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Marine 300 for the record I AM pro open carry and CCL with a license. I was directed here by a pro gun advocate to add my expertise on this subject otherwise I would not have bothered.

What I have a problem with on this forum is the original statement that Wichita is open carry and telling people to break the law in my opinion is wrong. Now if I disagree with the law, by all means lets try to pass legislation to change it but don't just say "i think this so I'm gonna do it anyways regardless of what city attorney's and all the judges think because even though I don't have a law degree I know more than them". This is an anarchy form a thought and can be destructive not only to a society but to ones self.

Also, I'm personally friends with one of the makers, Kelly Arnold, of the CCL who by the way is pro open carry as well but he needed to take baby steps on this with the liberals so we started with CCL first. My attempts to bring up what liberals and anti-gun bashers think might have made you think I'm anti-gun. It was my attempt to direct the attention towards educating the left and changing the law, not interpreting the law incorrectly which was being done.

I stand by everything that I have said and I have proven to be right just like the link has said. I said we are not open carry and said in the month of December the ordinance would make it more clear that we are still not open carry. I proved this with the link. Below is the link to the amended ordinance making it more clear.

Also keep in mind guys that you can open carry an unloaded firearm in Wichita, just not "loaded" as the old and new ordinance has said. Another point is that NEVER has anyone open carried in Wichita and been stopped by a police and not gone to jail. You can call the records department to confirm this.

All I want is for everyone to be safe and understand the law and not blast wrong information for people coming on here and they end up getting in trouble or worse hurt. Other claims I disagree with on the forum were that Wichita cops are "dumb" and do know what they are doing and don't know the law. Statement like these I disagree with especially since Wichita Police have won national awards multiple times for excellence in police work. You might disagree with how the judges decide a law or interpret the 2nd amendment but lets work towards getting it changed, not breaking the law and ending up in jail if someone doesn't want that to happen.

Below is the new ordinance that I said was going to be amended and as you can see it is way more clear now:

http://www.wichitagov.org/NR/rdonlyres/3D7A034E-345A-4234-8FB8-C0B15D7599F3/0/1222200948580WPDweaponsordinanceClean.pdf


Hopefully reasonable people can now see I was right that WICHITA IS NOT OPEN CARRY and we can work towards legislation and education to make it fully open carry and not just unloaded open carry.

Good luck to all and Dame I like the direction you are heading for you are going about it the correct way.

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Saefrog,

What I actually said is below.

marine0300 wrote:

Be careful if you do decide to open carry. Supposedly most law enforcement in Wichita do not know the gun laws. So be prepared for anything.

Click to expand...

To the law enforcement in Wichita I apologize for my words. I said that in frustration. Kansas has some of the finest law enforcement officers in the country. I also believe most law enforcement do not know the laws by heart or have kept up with all the changes made by federal, state, & local governments they are not lawyers. For example: Topeka Chief of Police, August 2009, said “open carry was illegal in Kansas & Topeka”, obviously he was wrong. But that doesn’t make him a bad police officer he is human and makes mistakes.

Saefrog,

I don’t trust you or have any confidence that you’re pro-open carry or have our best interest at heart. You repeatedly brag about all the important people you know that and you’re with the in crowd. Worst of all you betrayed us by lobbying to have the ordinance changed and bragged about on line.

This controversy has been going on for three years and if it was so clear it should have never been changed. Also what disappoints me even more the city council should have advertised this better or held a special meeting? This is no small issue. Feels like the council and city administrators snuck in the changes.

Also carrying unloaded is an insult to law abiding citizens of Wichita. CCW people can carry loaded, doesn’t make sense to open carry unloadedon one hip and carry a clip on the other. I also believe this policy is discriminatory to poor people. They don’t have the means to obtain a CCW but they have a constitutional right to defend them self.

I stand by my statements you are gleefully rubbing this in to everyone’s face. You have proved nothing.

Again, I believe this will be challenged at a future date and overturned.

Marine0300

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wichita law states unlawful carry of a firearm is a loaded firearm so any one can open cary an unloaded gun

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Lance,

I agree that Wichita is open carry of "unloaded" guns, but to Marine 0300's point, WPD are going to drop someone on the ground at gun point for walking down the street with a perfectly legal unloaded pistol strapped to a hip or an unloaded carbine on a single-point sling. This is the issue I have, because this reaction is not applied/practiced in other OC Cities/States, where I would bet money it has and will happen in Wichita due to lack of awareness and training of WPD officers. Of course, someone will rattle on and on with the argument that WPD would have reason/cause to assume something is illegal/wrong by seeing and armed citizen, where this exact argument fails in OC States. I don't suspect that cops shootings are higher in OC states, and actually I would probably bet money that they are lower.

I would suppose the real reason for allowing unloaded open carry is to allow citizens to/from gun shows, gun range, etc... without incident, not to allow citizens the right to defend themselves while operating in the public. This is the essence of the argument, because technically Wichita is "regulating" not "banning" by allowing open carry while unloaded, but it is not in the true meaning/spirit/intent of the KS constitution.

In the end, we will need to keep supporting pro-gun orgs, e.g. opencarry.org and initiatives which arise, e.g. open carry campaigns. I am definitely going to push the issue the next time I travel through Wichita with the city counsel and will organize an "unloaded" open carry. Of course, I will push all of the city buttons, but letting WPD know about the initiative and obtain any necessary permits/licenses, etc...with lots of camera talent to capture the situation. State reps will also get a very colorful letter in regards to what Wichita Officials are doing.

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Damiansar-15 wrote:

Lance,

I agree that Wichita is open carry of "unloaded" guns, but to Marine 0300's point, WPD are going to drop someone on the ground at gun point for walking down the street with a perfectly legal unloaded pistol strapped to a hip or an unloaded carbine on a single-point sling. This is the issue I have, because this reaction is not applied/practiced in other OC Cities/States, where I would bet money it has and will happen in Wichita due to lack of awareness and training of WPD officers. Of course, someone will rattle on and on with the argument that WPD would have reason/cause to assume something is illegal/wrong by seeing and armed citizen, where this exact argument fails in OC States. I don't suspect that cops shootings are higher in OC states, and actually I would probably bet money that they are lower.

I would suppose the real reason for allowing unloaded open carry is to allow citizens to/from gun shows, gun range, etc... without incident, not to allow citizens the right to defend themselves while operating in the public. This is the essence of the argument, because technically Wichita is "regulating" not "banning" by allowing open carry while unloaded, but it is not in the true meaning/spirit/intent of the KS constitution.

In the end, we will need to keep supporting pro-gun orgs, e.g. opencarry.org and initiatives which arise, e.g. open carry campaigns. I am definitely going to push the issue the next time I travel through Wichita with the city counsel and will organize an "unloaded" open carry. Of course, I will push all of the city buttons, but letting WPD know about the initiative and obtain any necessary permits/licenses, etc...with lots of camera talent to capture the situation. State reps will also get a very colorful letter in regards to what Wichita Officials are doing.

Click to expand...

Damian, there are many points of legal contention to be raised, however many of these are not ripe yet, part of these are contingent on 1, McDonald Vs Chicago,&2 if Ks reaffirms it's citizen's right to KABA. with heavy emphasis on BEARING arms in defense of self.
Open carry is a constitutional right, Concealed carry is a privilege. (if you have to ask permission, it is not a right)
Let's keep this thread alive,& does anyone know any NRA affiliated lawyers in the state of KS that we can ask about the constitutionality of Wichita's prohibition of ope carry?

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Marine 300 I'm glad that you accept that you were wrong about what you said about law enforcement in Kansas. I'm sure there are some bad apples but I think less of those are in Wichita.

I don't see why I can disagree with you and If I do all of a sudden I'm not pro gun and then you make a false statement that I lobbied to the city council for the ordinance to be changed when you can look up the dates of the draft and see that it was well within the works before I even became a member of this site. And besides, I am in favor of the ordinance being more clear because if someone was to take the ordinance wrong and open carry and get arrested how can you say that is right? I stand behind Damian in that we just want them to make a decision and make it clear so no one gets arrested.

Everything else you said I actually agree with 100%. Damian mentioned coming to Wichita and walking around with an unloaded gun to exercise his free right and I would find this an insult too. I would rather carry concealed loaded then open unloaded as well.

If I came across as rubbing in anyone faces I apologize but I think I was getting slammed by multiple people acting like I was crazy and didn't know what I was talking about. But hopefully now, when I say something and then it happens and I have backed it up, you guys will believe me? Hopefully now I've built some trust with everyone that I know what I'm talking about. You might not agree with me but I've been proven to be right so let's all try to open our minds up a little and work together.

Now I agree that I the ordinance was pushed in with others. Actually that is a fact it was. It was thrown in as a package deal according to the council minutes. I've talked with the city attorney who said it was needed changes anyhow since Wichita has always been a non open carry city so it didn't make any sense to make a big deal about it.

If anyone wants to know the date's and times to speak to the city council at DAB meetings let me know. I attend them every month.

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SAEFROG,

I believe that the frustration posed on the discussion board against you goes back to the fundamental argument presented by opencarry.org, which relates to allowing free citizens the ability to open carry loaded firearms to protect/defend themselves and others from harm. This right should not only be reserved for law enforcement.

Are you pro open carry of loaded firearms or not? Simple question...Everyone here is not for criminal open carry, so we are just talking about law-abiding citizens open carrying to protect themselves, to create defensive perceptions that undermine criminal activities, and to save lives.

You have argued in the past about the potential safety issue to law enforcement by citizens open carry. What about the $2+ million lives each yearwhich are saved from harm/death by using firearms to protect themselves? It is a shame that cops are shot in the line of duty, but isn't this because of criminals using guns they are not supposed to have and not by free citizens? I would argue that more open carrying of firearms by citizens would actually reduce the amount of cop shootings, because criminals are cowards and don't want to be around a heavily armed population when operating. Once the public realizes the legal right and good provided by armed citizens, officers won't also have to deal with calls of people walking around with guns, because it will be a normal part of our culture.

So again, SAEFROG, are you pro OC, or not?

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Damian simple question here is your simple answer. Yes I'm in favor of open carry loaded for law abiding citizens but not document gang members. There is your answer. I follow the same side that Kelly Arnold did when he was apart of passing carry concealed. I think I've made this clear multiple times if you look at my past quotes.

I think with any bill or new law there will always be negatives. Healthcare, tax reform, anything there will be consequences. But at the end of the day you have to measure the collateral damage vs. the good. For instance, in rare occasions the use of the taser by police will cause an individual to fall and hurt himself. Yes in the previous 1000 instances the police saved a suicidal person from killing themselves rather than watching and letting it happen. So one bad incident should be well worth the 1000 good instances. Get my logic here?

Apply the above to open carry. To date in Wichita, as far as I know and I have inside knowledge not one single gang member has gotten a license and not once was a CCL member involved in an unlawful shooting. We had one guy get drunk in a bar and had his gun on him but he did not use it he just violated the CCL for going into a bar. So really there has been no negative effects so going by the data, there hasn't even been any collateral damage this first year at all!

I would assume that open carry would have the same effects if implemented in Wichita. I think things like aggressive panhandling, and highway robberies would actually show a reduction in Wichita if open carry was allowed for obvious reasons.