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.380 FMJ for personal defense?

TheMrMitch

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Do NOT underestimate the 9x18. Below: 95 grain Barnaul JHP into a gallon jug of solid ice. It went 3.25 inches and shattered into nine pieces.



9x18jhp-1.jpg
 

HankT

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Bikenut wrote:
Is FMJ better than JHP? Dunno... is the gun reliable with JHP? Penetration? Dunno.... clothing tends to plug the hollow point of some JHP ammo essentially making it act like a FMJ anyway... some .380 JHP ammo gives acceptable penetration and some doesn't (a net search will help make that decision)...


Just happened to be reading the December Guns & Ammo magazine, an article about the new Taurus PT738 TCP .380, and it mentioned the followingabout .380 ammo:

I also had the opportunity to fire Hornady's new 90-grain .380 Critical Defense ammunition from the TCP into a block of ballisticgelatin fronted with the FBI-standard Heavy Winter Clothing barrier of four-layered cotton T-shirt material, lined denim jacket material and a down-filled parka. The bullet expanded fully and penetrated straight-line to just over 10 inches. That's deep enough to penetrate and disrupt any attacker'svital engine...
 

ProtectedByGlock

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My suggestion for you is Hornaday Critical Defense 380 Auto I put the link below for you
www.hornady.com/shop/ Do an handgun ammunition search for .380Auto and you will see the ballistics on this round. This is a new round for this year. It is a 380 AUTO 90 Grain FTX. In the tip it is filled in the HP to ensure correct expansion. As far as FMJ it really doesnt matter, I would only carry the mouse gun as a backup,(no offense) FYI- a FMJ will be a thru and thru with risk of injuring othersThe ruger LCP is a great product...Glock30
 

ProtectedByGlock

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I would go with a sub-compact as primary EDC and use your mouse gun as a BUG, Winchchestor Ranget 9 MM T- Series is an excellent round for a Glock19 or 26 for EDC, I have never had a malf in either of these Glocks, if it anit broke,sont fix it.......Glock 30 (meant for original post)

" I would rather be judged by 12,than carried by 6 "
 

ProtectedByGlock

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PT111, who is doing the shooting that a well places .45 does not dropp a BG in an instant. I can pretty much gurantee that 2 to the chest will drop him and keep him doen. Gotta be a bad shot to hit someone 8 tomes with a.45 and not drop him, where are u shooting him, IN THE TOE????????????? G30

" I wouls rather be judges by 12 than carried by 6 "
 

ecocks

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Careful with guarantees...

February 24, 2005 - Mark Allen Wilson, hero (from Wikipedia entry):

"A local resident, Mark Allen Wilson, was returning to his nearby apartment when the shooting began. Wilson, who held a Texas concealed handgun permit, is believed to have responded to seeing Arroyo shoot his wife by drawing his own weapon, a Colt .45 caliber pistol and approaching. Arroyo was already engaged in a heated gun battle with sheriff's deputies and Tyler police officers and apparently did not see Wilson.

Wilson fired one round at Arroyo, causing him to stumble. A witness saw the round strike Arroyo and saw "white puffs of powder-like substance" come from Arroyo's clothing. This appeared to be the first time Arroyo was hit or injured during his attack on the courthouse. Wilson then took cover behind Arroyo's truck.

As Arroyo approached, Wilson stood up and fired again at Arroyo over the truck, hitting him; however, Arroyo was wearing a bulletproof vest, and Wilson's shots did not disable him. Arroyo turned and fired at least one shot at Wilson, who faltered and disappeared from view behind the truck. Arroyo then fired at him three times, killing him."

Note: Mr. Wilson was both a veteran and the owner of a local gun range, scoring multiple hits, notsome untrained noob without any tactical sense. Bio excerpt:

"Mark Wilson was born and raised in Dallas, Texas and graduated from MacArthur High School in 1971. He went on to serve with distinction in the U.S. Navy. After his discharge from the military, he worked as a racquetball instructor and later opened Tyler's On Target Shooting Range in 1997. He volunteered in the community by helping to raise money for nonprofit organizations and devoting time to organizations like the Texas Blues Festival and Festival on the Square. Wilson lived in an apartment that overlooked the area where the shooting took place."

Placement, placement, placement. Because, sometimes a .45 just won't do the job any better than a .223. Note: Arroyo was ulimately killed by a .223 fired by a Tyler Police Sgt.

Try googling "Mark Wilson Tyler Texas" for more information.
 

SlowDog

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If I am engaging a BG with my primary weapon I will be using my 1911A1. If I see he is hit several times center mass and doesn't go down I will pull my total attention on head shots. And yes I do practice this. Remember.....practice practice practice practice practice practice practice practice practice....need I say more. We are only as good as our muscle memory will allow us to be. :quirky:quirky
 

Alexcabbie

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SlowDog wrote:
If I am engaging a BG with my primary weapon I will be using my 1911A1. If I see he is hit several times center mass and doesn't go down I will pull my total attention on head shots. And yes I do practice this. Remember.....practice practice practice practice practice practice practice practice practice....need I say more. We are only as good as our muscle memory will allow us to be. :quirky:quirky
10-4; and that is the disadvantage of .380. All that practice is gonna cost ya and you might not even be able to get the ammo. I gotta get some basic reloading equipment....
 
M

McX

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drifted through, and heard the .380. so i got a couple of questions; do you have to worry about a clean bill of shoot from your local DA if you ramp up to jacketed, or hollows, or over the stock powder, to get a decent shot to work with on your .380? anyone here uneasy with the low magazine capapcity? will these little squirts hit reliably and reasonably accurately at say 20 ft. or so?
 

Alexcabbie

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I really don't get the concern about the proseccutor/investigator/judge/jury being likely (or not) to give weight to the type of ammo used. Lethal force is lethal force is lethal force, as Gertrude Stein might have said had she marrried Elmer Kieth. The only legitimate things for a court to consider are: Did a crime occur? Is every element of the crime proven? and did the defendant in fact commit the crime? That's it. Now there may be some prosecutor somewhere with a hardon for hollowpoints, and certain benighted backwaters may ban all kinds of ammo.

But remember that your best defense is the truth that you did NOT shoot to kill, you shot in order to live. Some people might believe that some bullet designs are evil because they can render a person not just merely dead but really quite sincerely dead. These people are called "fools".
 

tcmech

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I have no personal experience with 380 handguns or their ammo. I have started doing my own box of truth type experiments and I also fire my factory ammo through a chrono to see just how close most of the advertised speeds are.

I believe that you should try a few experiments of your own and decide from personal experience.

There are websites that tell how to make ballistic gel and there are always the options of newspaper, phone books, etc.

I personally believe that a 380 is a lot better than not having a gun.
 

Alexcabbie

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tcmech wrote:
I have no personal experience with 380 handguns or their ammo. I have started doing my own box of truth type experiments and I also fire my factory ammo through a chrono to see just how close most of the advertised speeds are.

I believe that you should try a few experiments of your own and decide from personal experience.

There are websites that tell how to make ballistic gel and there are always the options of newspaper, phone books, etc.

I personally believe that a 380 is a lot better than not having a gun.
Oui oui. Jeff Cooper's First Law of Gungfighting: Have a gun....
 

sevenplusone

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jeeper1 wrote:
About a year plus ago I did some penetration testing of the ammo I had for my carry guns. I used water filled jugs 6 inches thick.
The 380 hp bullets DID NOT pass through 2 of them.
The 9x18 silver bear hp DENTED the back wall of the second jug but DID NOT exit.
The 9x19 stopped in the fourth and the 38 special exited the fourth but DID NOT enter the fifth.
I have been told that water is about half the density of human flesh. Also I have been told that you need 12 inches of penetration of flesh to be considered adequate fo self defense.
Therefore I concluded that the 380 and 9x18 were NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR SELF DEFENSE. The 9x19 is marginal and the 38 special is the absolute minimum for self defense.
That is why I carry a 40 S&W.
Below left to right. 380, 9x18, 9x19 and 38 special.
bulletstest003.jpg

bulletstest002.jpg

That's all well and good...but what lengths of barrel were you testing these rounds out of?
 

Pat-inCO

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jeeper1 wrote:
Therefore I concluded that the 380 and 9x18 were NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR SELF DEFENSE. The 9x19 is marginal and the 38 special is the absolute minimum for self defense.
DANG! Independent test that comes to the same conclusion that many others have (good work and pictures ;) !)

The .380, while better than a .25 or .32 is still below what you want for reliable self defense. By reliable, I mean that it does - not - take as many shots to stop the BG.

If, for some reason, you can only shoot/carry a .380, then I would go for the FMJ. First choice would be for something that starts with a .4 because they are more plentiful and more likely to "get 'er done".
 

ocgso

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smash29 wrote:
Any thoughts on using .380 FMJ ammo for personal defense? I just picked up a Kahr P380 (SWEET gun!) and I was talking to a guy at the range about ordering JHPs to carry and he opined that with the inherent weakness of the .380 FMJ might be a better choice for the extra penetration.

I've read about choosing FMJ over HPs in a .25 or .32 but never really thought about it when itcame to a .380. I'm due to get some Double Tap HP ammo by the end of the week and won't be shooting all of that up for a while so it's not a huge concern but I was intigued by the FMJ suggestion...

Why not look at a site like www.goldenloki.com or www.mouseguns.com and see some of the penetration and expansion testing done.

I would feel comfortable carrying a quality HP in 380. My opinion is that carrying FMJ is begging for overpenetration.

The worst thing about FMJ IMHO is that you don't get a wound cavity and shock that comes with it. This means that the attacker might not even realize they have been shot unless you hit a vital organ they will not even slow down.

My 2 cents....
 

Alexcabbie

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There's been a lot written about the primacy of shot placement by advocates of .380 and rebuffed by folks who say that aiming isn't a big part of a 5-7 yard firefight.

Yet it is entirely possible to jerk rounds wide of the target at those ranges, and IMO only practice and getting used to taking aim as second nature will help ensure that those rounds - be they .380 or .44 Mag - hit the BG.

Wyatt Earp - who was never wounded by an opponent but who killed several of them - put it succinctly: "Take your time in a hurry" That takes practice.
 
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