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Thread: Troy Firearms Ordinances

  1. #26
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Maybe make another attempt at contacting someone?? If you don't get any response maybe a council meeting.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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  2. #27
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    i will probably give at least a week for response. i doubt the city attorney is full time.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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  3. #28
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    The City Attorney is Full Time, I have had Clawson PD contact her before, and have spoke with her before as a witnes, and as a defendent for a civil infraction. (BTW Clawson and Troy share court resources). I will attend meeting as well just let me know info!
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
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  4. #29
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Keep us posted friend Smell!!
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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  5. #30
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Royal Oak, Clawson, and Troy all had this same ordinance. Royal Oak changed theirs, eastmeyers stated that Clawson changed theirs, I do not believe that anyone had ever contacted Troy about theirs.

    The following Troy Ordinance is meaningless as State Law Authorizes Persons able to Own/Possess Firearms to carry same...

    Quote Originally Posted by 98.13.02
    Firearms in Public.
    No person shall carry a firearm in any public place unless it is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and in a case. A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 90 days or by a fine of not more than $500, or both.

    Exception. This section does not apply to persons authorized by federal or state law to carry firearms.
    The following Troy Ordinance is more restrictive than State Law for Transport and therefore violates MCL 123.1102.

    Quote Originally Posted by 98.13.01
    Transport or Possess Firearms.
    No person shall transport or possess a firearm in a vehicle unless the firearm is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and carried in the luggage compartment of the vehicle. A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 90 days or by a fine of not more than $500, or both.

    Exception. This section does not apply to persons authorized by federal or state law to transport or possess firearms.
    These should be addressed as well.

    Troy Code of Ordinances Chapter 98: http://troymi.gov/CodeAndCharter/Code/CH098.pdf

    MCL Links:
    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-123-1102
    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-227d

  6. #31
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    that disaster control section is the scariest to me. the troy city council gave the mayor more authority than the governor...
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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  7. #32
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    sent an email to the council member that replied for an update. will post reply if i get one.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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  8. #33
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    reply from dave, troy city council

    Dan

    Nothing yet. The city attorney is looking into it. I forwarded this email to her as a reminder. I’ll keep you posted

    Thanks

    Dave
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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  9. #34
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    At least they are looking into it and trying to help us out.
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

  10. #35
    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yance View Post
    At least they are looking into it and trying to help us out.
    well at least they are Looking it to it, not sure about the rest yet!
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  11. #36
    Regular Member NHCGRPR45's Avatar
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    Good point onnie.
    But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

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  12. #37
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    next council meeting monday 23rd
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  13. #38
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    Howd the council meeting today go?
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

  14. #39
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    i didn't go yet. i'm giving the lawyer a chance to respond. troy posts their meetings online though, so i will review the meeting to see if it was brought up... but i doubt it was, yet.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  15. #40
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    i didn't go yet. i'm giving the lawyer a chance to respond. troy posts their meetings online though, so i will review the meeting to see if it was brought up... but i doubt it was, yet.
    Usually best to give them some time to respond. If you have properly informed the City Council and Police Department and have evidence of such, then they are unlikely to enforce an ordinance out of line with State Law and if they do then they will be in a world of hurt (not wanting a fight, but being prepared is best).

  16. #41
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    all i heard for a while was crickets... so i decided to kick the hornet's nest a bit today. you know, just to make sure they hadn't thought i had been intimidated by silence or forgotten about it. i sent this out to all the council, the mayor and the city attorney who wasn't on the original email list. although a council member did forward it to her.
    i sent:

    "No response yet from city attorney. The city has had 22 years to bring ordinances into compliance with state law."

    reply from city attorney lori bluhm:

    "Thank you for your e-mail. Your e-mail has been forwarded to our office, and we have done some research. We anticipate that we will have our research completed in the very near future. "

    interestingly enough, i found this on the cities website describing her job position:

    "The staff of the City Attorney's Office prepares and/or reviews all ordinances, contracts, bonds and other written instruments and prosecutes ordinance violations. They update the Council on all matters of law and changes or recent developments affecting the City."

    http://troymi.gov/law/
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 02-03-2012 at 05:36 PM.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  17. #42
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    from dave henderson, the council member who responded previously:

    Dan,

    Thanks again for the reminder. I notice the city attorney has responded as well. I am staying in touch with this. I’m certain she will have a response for us. Her department has been loaded with a few issues lately that have made prioritizing a little difficult.

    Thanks for keeping in touch

    Dave
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  18. #43
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    from dave henderson, the council member who responded previously:

    Dan,

    Thanks again for the reminder. I notice the city attorney has responded as well. I am staying in touch with this. I’m certain she will have a response for us. Her department has been loaded with a few issues lately that have made prioritizing a little difficult.

    Thanks for keeping in touch

    Dave
    Why does that appear to read, at least to me anyway, as....... "Buzz off. We are trying to sweep this under the rug."

    Maybe I'm wrong?
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  19. #44
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    i think you're wrong, i think henderson wants to help... everyone else, i'm not so sure. henderson says he's got a CPL, so it's in his interest to see that these ordinances go away.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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  20. #45
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Well it doesn't hurt to hope...

    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    i think you're wrong, i think henderson wants to help... everyone else, i'm not so sure. henderson says he's got a CPL, so it's in his interest to see that these ordinances go away.
    I hope you are right. However Bikenut may also be correct. My experience with city council's in the metro Detroit area is they often enjoy 'special' privileges that the common folk do not. In my city until recently they were even given 'honorary' police badges. So even though Henderson maybe a CPL holder he will never have to worry about being harassed in the city of Troy like a 'common' citizen would. Let's not forget that they often fain powerlessness, when they can dictate many things as they are in fact the lawmakers of a city. Sadly most city council people cannot give you a accurate description of their duties when pressed for them. Often this deficiency follows along with them as they move to the state house and in some cases to Washington D.C.

    If you ever want to have some real fun, attend a meeting and ask any random member to tell you the first 10 amendments [The Bill of Rights] to the US Constitution during the open comments/questions from the public portion of the meeting. I find that 90% of the time they cannot. At least not without trying to use a web-phone or a laptop to get the answers. SAD..
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 02-04-2012 at 06:56 PM. Reason: Attach Bill of Rights
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  21. #46
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    you raise some good points
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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  22. #47
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    ok, so here is the latest after i requested an update, this is from lori bluhm troy city attorney:

    We were hoping to get the proposed comprehensive amendments to chapter 8, disaster control, on this next agenda. However, there were a few other intervening and pressing matters. Chapter 98 does not need to be amended. It is our goal to have this as an informational item for the March 20 agenda, then voted on at the next meeting. In the meantime, we are aware of the state law provisions should it be necessary to use chapter 8.

    My response:

    So in regards to Chapter 98.13.03 and 04, is Troy somehow exempt from the following?:
    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.

    Sec. 2. A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation
    pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or
    possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other
    firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.



    Unless I missed something, the state law does not have a clause that says that a local unit of government cannot enact a regulation, but it's ok if it mirrors existing state law. The state already regulates all aspects covered in chapter 98 with the exception of firearms discharge which is relegated to municipalities.

    Her response:
    We will present our analysis as part of the March 20, 2012 city council meeting agenda.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  23. #48
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    here is the full text of the offending section that the attorney says does not need modified:

    98.13.01 Transport or Possess Firearms.
    No person shall transport or possess a firearm in a vehicle unless the firearm is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and carried in the luggage compartment of the vehicle. A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 90 days or by a fine of not more than $500, or both.
    Exception. This section does not apply to persons authorized by federal or state law to transport or possess firearms.
    98.13.02 Firearms in Public.
    No person shall carry a firearm in any public place unless it is unloaded in both barrel and magazine and in a case. A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 90 days or by a fine of not more than $500, or both.
    Exception. This section does not apply to persons authorized by federal or state law to carry firearms.
    98.13.03 Person Under 18 - Purchase Firearms.
    No person under 18 years of age shall purchase, carry or transport a firearm in any public place. A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 90 days or by a fine of not more than $500, or both.
    98.13.04 Sell Firearms to Person Under 18.
    No person shall sell a firearm to any person under 18 years of age. A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 90 days or by a fine of not more than $500, or both.
    98.13.05 Discharge of Firearms.
    No person shall discharge any firearm or bow and arrow in the City. A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 90 days or by a fine of not more than $500, or both.
    Exception. This section does not apply to persons lawfully acting in the defense of persons or property or the enforcement of law or at an established range that has been approved by the Troy City Council.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

  24. #49
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    at least they are getting to it, but it sounds like the woman who emailed you didnt want to deal with the whole thing and pass it off. I like her short follow to your reply quoting preemption, hopefully that changed her mind about addressing everything that needs to be addressed.

    Thanks for the updates
    The worst weapon is the human mind, its created and done things far worse than a gun can, has, or ever will. Its the human mind that tells the gun what to do and animates the inanimate object.

    With all these gun control laws in place I have yet to find a single one that has saved someones life, but I can find hundreds of stories where a gun has.

  25. #50
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    In regards to the ordinances that prohibit certain activities unless "authorized" by state law, it is in the best interest of the city to NOT make any changes. The reason for this is that, although the behavior is already covered under state law, the city would not be able to receive any money from the fines involved for a violation. That is why cities typically have many ordinances that seem to be already covered under state law in their ordinances; it is a necessity if the city wants to get "their piece of the pie". The city is definitely exceeding their lawful authority in regards to the "state of emergency" ordinance, though. Remember, too, that local units of government may prohibit the discharge of firearms under the preemption statute.

    see MCL 123.1104,
    Prohibiting discharge of pistol or other firearm.Sec. 4.
    This act does not prohibit a city or a charter township from prohibiting the discharge of a pistol or other firearm within the jurisdiction of that city or charter township.




    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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