Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: Preemptive Law Question

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Davisburg, MI, ,
    Posts
    18

    Post imported post

    I was hunting at the Shiawassee Basin Preserve on Eaton Rd. in Davisburg, MI a few weeks ago; this is land that is owned and governed by Springfield Township, MI. The “Park Rules and Regulations” sign that is posted near the parking area lists a rule stating “Possession of weapons by any nature other than hunting is prohibited”. It also provides a Township Ordinance number in reference to this.

    I sent a letter to the Springfield Township Parks and Recreation department asking :

    “Does this prohibit someone who is a Michigan Concealed Pistol License holder from carrying (for reasons other than hunting) a pistol, either concealed or openly carried, within the laws of the State of Michigan? Is this ordinance stating that a person may only carry a pistol on that property during an open hunting season as recognized by the Michigan Department of Natural Resources?”[/b]

    I received a reply from the Director of Parks and recreation stating that she had forwarded my question to the Oakland County Sherriff’s Department Sergeant that oversees Springfield Township. A few days later I receive a telephone call from the Sergeant regarding this matter. He states that this ordinance is NOT enforceable and a person can Open Carry or Concealed Carry (if licensed) on this property. He did state, and I paraphrase, ‘the only issue that may arise is if you were carrying a “hunting type “pistol and were dressed in full camouflage and it was NOT an open hunting season you could be questioned as it appears you may be poaching.’ The one thing that he did say and that I disagree with, is that even though the ordinance is not enforceable, the Township does not have to change the sign. I did not argue this point with him as I did not have enough info to back my argument.

    So, is this true or not? It was my understanding that a Township could not have any laws, ordinances, etc. that supersede the laws of the state. Does that mean the Township must change the sign? Do they have to remove the ordinance from the books?

    Any information would be greatly appreciated!

    THANK YOU!

  2. #2
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445

    Post imported post

    firefighterSTFD22 wrote:
    I was hunting at the Shiawassee Basin Preserve on Eaton Rd. in Davisburg, MI a few weeks ago; this is land that is owned and governed by Springfield Township, MI. The “Park Rules and Regulations” sign that is posted near the parking area lists a rule stating “Possession of weapons by any nature other than hunting is prohibited”. It also provides a Township Ordinance number in reference to this.

    I sent a letter to the Springfield Township Parks and Recreation department asking :



    “Does this prohibit someone who is a Michigan Concealed Pistol License holder from carrying (for reasons other than hunting) a pistol, either concealed or openly carried, within the laws of the State of Michigan? Is this ordinance stating that a person may only carry a pistol on that property during an open hunting season as recognized by the Michigan Department of Natural Resources?”[/b]

    I received a reply from the Director of Parks and recreation stating that she had forwarded my question to the Oakland County Sherriff’s Department Sergeant that oversees Springfield Township. A few days later I receive a telephone call from the Sergeant regarding this matter. He states that this ordinance is NOT enforceable and a person can Open Carry or Concealed Carry (if licensed) on this property. He did state, and I paraphrase, ‘the only issue that may arise is if you were carrying a “hunting type “pistol and were dressed in full camouflage and it was NOT an open hunting season you could be questioned as it appears you may be poaching.’Wrong I can wear whatever I want as long as I am not attempting to take game and it is always A hunting season (you can hunt certain animals year round.). The one thing that he did say and that I disagree with, is that even though the ordinance is not enforceable, the Township does not have to change the sign. This is true. What we have done is engage the municipality at the board level and tell them that the sign is a defacto gun-control law and the continued use of them is an act of malfeasance and they could be civilly liable. Generally we have had good success in getting them to change their ordinances. Other threads have good examples of letters written to their local municipalities. I suggest you write the Township supervisor and tell them to change the ordinance and take the signs down. If you need help let me know. I did not argue this point with him as I did not have enough info to back my argument.

    So, is this true or not? It was my understanding that a Township could not have any laws, ordinances, etc. that supersede the laws of the state. Well a municipality could make a law that said anything, they could ban green shirts on Wednesday, they could have a law that says all black people have to be off the streets by 5:00 PM. But they can't enforce illegal laws. Does that mean the Township must change the sign?No Do they have to remove the ordinance from the books? NO

    Any information would be greatly appreciated!

    THANK YOU!
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  3. #3
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445

    Post imported post

    You could modify this as needed.

    I am member ofopencarry.org's Michigan forum.It has come to my attention that your township has an illegal ordinance in regards to firearm possession.The pertinent section is below.

    PUT IN ORDINANCE OR LINK TO SAME.
    [/i][/b]
    As you may or may not know, in 1990 the State of Michigan passed MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

    In MCRGO v. Ferndale[/i], the Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon firearms possession.

    THE MICHIGAN APPEALS COURT CONCLUDED: April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237
    In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.

    Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and, consequently, we reverse.

    Myhope is that you amend this ordinance and any other ordinance that bans firearms. Michigan Open Carry, Inc. has contacted other municipalities and they have chosen to amend their ordinances to avoid any possible civil suits like the Federal suit in Grand Haven (see below). For further information on open carry and citizens rights see this newsletter published by the Law Enforcement Action Forum (LEAF) of the Municipal League of Michigan.

    http://www.mml.org/insurance/shared/publications/leaf_newsletter/2009_04.pdf

    Please update me on any action you undertake to correct this situation. I thank you for your time and consideration in this matter.

    Respectfully,



    May 12, 2009

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

    The Law Offices of Steven W. Dulan, PLC announces federal civil rights suit against City of Grand Haven and Ottawa County over open-carry ordinance.

    The suit, brought under Title 42, Section 1983 of the U.S. Code, was filed on behalf of Christopher Fetters, an off-duty Air Force Security Officer who was attending the Coast Guard Festival in Grand Haven last year. Mr. Fetters was openly carrying a holstered pistol, which is legal under Michigan law, as in most states. He was arrested and detained and charged with a violation of a Grand Haven city ordinance prohibiting open carry of firearms. His gun was initially seized, although it was later returned.

    Michigan law prohibits local units of government from making any law with respect to firearms, (MCL 123.1102.) The public policy goal of the statute is to provide a uniform system of gun laws statewide so that citizens do not have to guess regarding what local rules might exist as they move from one locality to the next.

    The complaint alleges, among other issues, violations of Mr. Fetters' civil rights under the 2d, 4th, and 14th , Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, and Article I, Section 6 of the Michigan Constitution, which reads, "Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state," when he was physically restrained, disarmed, and subjected to verbal harassment and ridicule by law enforcement personnel.

    Criminal charges were later dropped by the Grand Haven City Attorney's Office, after being informed of the unenforceability of their ordinance. No allegations were ever made that Mr. Fetters ever threatened anyone, or in any other way disturbed the peace on the day of his arrest. He is demanding damages for violation of his civil rights as a citizen of the United States and of Michigan.

    The case has been filed in the U.S. Court, Western District of Michigan in Grand Rapids and has been assigned Case Number 1:09-CV-00190.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  4. #4
    Activist Member hamaneggs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,251

    Post imported post

    The DNR hunting rules state," A hunting license is not required when target practicing or sighting in a firearm at an identifiable, artificialy constructed target, and there is no attempt to take game.A hunting license is not required for the CARRYING OF A PISTOL FOR PERSONAL PROTECTION by a camper,hiker or person engaged in other recreational activities if there is no attempt to take game".
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

  5. #5
    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Do you really wanna go there with me?, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    629

    Post imported post

    Venator wrote:
    ...Does that mean the Township must change the sign?No Do they have to remove the ordinance from the books? NO...


    Wouldn't this be grounds for a claim of malfeasance though? Especially if someone's rights were violated becauseof it?
    United we STAND!

  6. #6
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Lansing area, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    6,445

    Post imported post

    JeffSayers wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    ...Does that mean the Township must change the sign?No Do they have to remove the ordinance from the books? NO...


    Wouldn't this be grounds for a claim of malfeasance though? Especially if someone's rights were violated becauseof it?
    Definitely if someone was charged, maybe otherwise. It would take complaints and threats.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  7. #7
    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Do you really wanna go there with me?, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    629

    Post imported post

    Venator wrote:
    JeffSayers wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    ...Does that mean the Township must change the sign?No Do they have to remove the ordinance from the books? NO...


    Wouldn't this be grounds for a claim of malfeasance though? Especially if someone's rights were violated becauseof it?
    Definitely if someone was charged, maybe otherwise. It would take complaints and threats.

    As I thought.

    Firefighter, for this to have weight, the local municipality must be made aware of their violation on the record. We have found bringing to the attention of city council during an official meeting (on record with the public) to be an effective way to bring compliance. If nothing else, it puts the municipality on notice that they will be held accountable if their lack of action results in the violation of rights.


    You could also try sending a letter. Email is great because it gives record ofit being sent, especially if you request a read receipt. There are cut and paste templates forthis floating around all over on hereor I could PM you a copy if you like.

    Will you be going after this or would you like someone to take it up on your behalf?
    United we STAND!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •