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Thread: Disturbing story

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    Regular Member Harper1227's Avatar
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    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/1..._n_334975.html

    what is wrong with people?



    RICHMOND, Calif. -- Police believe as many as a dozen people watched a 15-year-old girl get beaten and gang-raped outside her high school homecoming dance without reporting it.

    The San Jose Mercury News reports that onlookers laughed, took pictures and even joined in the crime.

    Two suspects were in custody Monday, but police said as many as five other men attacked the girl over a two-hour period Friday night outside Richmond High School.

    "She was raped, beaten, robbed and dehumanized by several suspects who were obviously OK enough with it to behave that way in each other's presence," Lt. Mark Gagan said. "What makes it even more disturbing is the presence of others. People came by, saw what was happening and failed to report it."

    The victim remained hospitalized with non-life-threatening injuries.

    Manuel Ortega, 19, was arrested at the scene and was being held on $800,000 bail for investigation of rape and robbery. He is not a student at the school.

    Richmond police Sgt. David Harris said he did not know if Ortega had retained an attorney.

    A 15-year-old student also was booked late Monday on one count of sexual assault, Gagan said.

    Police said the girl left the dance and was walking to meet her father for a ride home when a classmate invited her to join a group drinking in the courtyard. The victim had drank a large amount of alcohol by the time the assault began, police said. The girl's father was looking for her during the attack, according to the LA Times:

    Police were finally called after a female student overhead people talking about the rape. She called 911 and told dispatchers what she had heard, Gagan said.
    When officers arrived on the scene, the assault was still going on. Several suspects fled as officers found the girl naked from the waist up, Gagan said.


    The victim was semi-conscious near a picnic table, police said.

    Marin Trujillo, a spokesman for the West Contra Costa Unified School District, said there were four police officers and three school administrators monitoring the dance, but the assault happened away from the gym.



    Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/27/police-people-watched-gan_n_334975.html

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    There's something to be said for mob mentality. There's something else to be said for her drinking herself into oblivion.

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    Regular Member Harper1227's Avatar
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    Mike_Hawke wrote:
    There's something to be said for mob mentality. There's something else to be said for her drinking herself into oblivion.
    Really? THATs what you get out of this story. well, a bunch of people will act stupid, she shouldn't have been drunk?

    don't have daughters do you?



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    Harper1227 wrote:
    Mike_Hawke wrote:
    There's something to be said for mob mentality. There's something else to be said for her drinking herself into oblivion.
    Really? THATs what you get out of this story. well, a bunch of people will act stupid, she shouldn't have been drunk?

    don't have daughters do you?


    What do you get out of the story?



    The larger the mob, the more crazed the people will act. The larger the crowd, the less likely any individual is to make an effort to speakup or assist. This is called the bystander effect - everyone assumes, "well there's so many other people watching, someone else will help/report it." The more people present, the stronger the effect. This is nothing out of the ordinary. Forgive my lack of shock and awe; nothing here is shocking or surprising. There is no grand conspiracy here. It's humanity showing its true colors, courtesy of Mr. Jack Daniels.

    According to the story the girl "had drank a large amount of alcohol." It can be reasonably assumed that she drank herself into a condition which facilitated what occurred after. Do you have daughters? I'd suggest you teach them to never drink a "large amount of alcohol" unless they are in a secure environment.


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    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    Just my opinion, but if they didn't do anything to stop the attack they aren't "onlookers" they're "accomplices’" and should be charged thusly.
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when you’re serious and when you’re being sarcastic. –Abraham Lincoln

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    Reading that makes me want to throw up. Another reason I will not miss CA if it fell into the sea. I hope they take every single one of those "kids" get a hell of a good beating equal to or more then they did to that poor girl. Better yet take them out back and well you know what I was thinking. They will do much worse when they get older.

    Marin Trujillo, a spokesman for the West Contra Costa Unified School District, said there were four police officers and three school administrators monitoring the dance, but the assault happened away from the gym.
    O so because it happened out of your sight it was not your fault. I hope they sue the crap out of them. Lord knows I would have killed the sickos that did it.

    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
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    Regular Member Harper1227's Avatar
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    Mike_Hawke wrote:
    Harper1227 wrote:
    Mike_Hawke wrote:
    There's something to be said for mob mentality. There's something else to be said for her drinking herself into oblivion.
    Really? THATs what you get out of this story. well, a bunch of people will act stupid, she shouldn't have been drunk?

    don't have daughters do you?


    What do you get out of the story?


    That people are twisted and should, when able offer assistance to someone in distress - being raped and beaten, for example. and when they cannot help they should attempt to find someone who can - those people taking cell phone pictures, for example, could have easily dialed 911, walked away and done so if need be.



    The larger the mob, the more crazed the people will act. The larger the crowd, the less likely any individual is to make an effort to speakup or assist. This is called the bystander effect - everyone assumes, "well there's so many other people watching, someone else will help/report it." The more people present, the stronger the effect. This is nothing out of the ordinary. Forgive my lack of shock and awe; nothing here is shocking or surprising. There is no grand conspiracy here. It's humanity showing its true colors, courtesy of Mr. Jack Daniels.

    I understand the concept of mob mentality. I get that people don't "want to get involved" but I am not, as I expect many here are not as well, that person. Hence, why I find disgust in other peoples apathy.

    No one said it was a grand conspiracy, only disturbing.


    According to the story the girl "had drank a large amount of alcohol." It can be reasonably assumed that she drank herself into a condition which facilitated what occurred after. Do you have daughters? I'd suggest you teach them to never drink a "large amount of alcohol" unless they are in a secure environment.
    was her judgement poor? yes, i dont think anyone is, or will argue that. But, at the same time, NO amount of alcohol is an excuse for someone to be GANG RAPED AND BEATEN.

    YES, i do have daughters and I will teach them right and wrong, but WILL NOT accept that them doing something stupid means that they deserve to be attacked and dehumanized. And i cant believe that you would accept that either, unless of course your the kinda guy that needs to get girls drunk for them to touch you. Judging by your name, it wouldn't surprise me. you're disgusting.

    anyone have any troll spray?

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I've been in that area several times, and this does not surprise me.

    There is a lot of crime there, and there are a lot of people who I would describe as folks who care about little more than themselves. I would also describe the mentality of a lot of people there as thinking guns and armed self defense are taboo, and that the best way to deal with crimes is to let the criminals do what they gotta do, then call the cops.

    I feel extremely sorry for this girl, only because she isn't old enough to move away from that dump, or carry a gun. I can only hope she is able to recover from this.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

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    Harper1227 wrote:
    YES, i do have daughters and I will teach them right and wrong, but WILL NOT accept that them doing something stupid means that they deserve to be attacked and dehumanized. And i cant believe that you would accept that either, unless of course your the kinda guy that needs to get girls drunk for them to touch you. Judging by your name, it wouldn't surprise me. you're disgusting.

    anyone have any troll spray?
    Take it easy there, big guy. I never implied that her being drunk justified anything. I'm just stating the facts as they appear.

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    Regular Member Harper1227's Avatar
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    Mike_Hawke wrote:
    Harper1227 wrote:
    YES, i do have daughters and I will teach them right and wrong, but WILL NOT accept that them doing something stupid means that they deserve to be attacked and dehumanized. And i cant believe that you would accept that either, unless of course your the kinda guy that needs to get girls drunk for them to touch you. Judging by your name, it wouldn't surprise me. you're disgusting.

    anyone have any troll spray?
    Take it easy there, big guy. I never implied that her being drunk justified anything. I'm just stating the facts as they appear.
    big guy - ah! I like that!

    ya know, being the new guy you might wanna chill out and ease into this forum. we're all friends here and just trying to share ideas, but you know well enough what you were saying so don't state 'devils advocate' now. there was no implication
    It can be reasonably assumed that she drank herself into a condition which facilitated what occurred after. Do you have daughters? I'd suggest you teach them to never drink a "large amount of alcohol" unless they are in a secure environment.
    you say reasonably assume which in and of itself is not:
    stating the facts as they appear
    you also said
    I'd suggest you teach them to never drink a "large amount of alcohol" unless they are in a secure environment.
    what else could be derived from THAT comment other then she put herself at risk by drinking in a non-secure environment? should that be the issue, or the fact that she was raped and beaten when as many as a dozen people watched.

    also, the facts were already stated as the appeared, in the article. the whole point is to provide comments on the article and its content and reference the dangerous andf unfriendly world around us. we do not need you paraphasing or re"stating the facts as they appear"

    if you meant to be incendiary and cause a ruckus fine, that happens a lot. you will be labled a troll and ignored as such.

    but, if you want to actively participate in this board, welcome and know that differing opinions are always welcome here. but dont expect to have peoplerespond toderogatory comments about a child being raped and beaten with friendly comments.

    love ya!

    -the big guy!

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    Harper1227 wrote:
    what else could be derived from THAT comment other then she put herself at risk by drinking in a non-secure environment?
    Is that not an issue? Did she not put herself at risk by drinking in a non-secure environment?


    should that be the issue, or the fact that she was raped and beaten when as many as a dozen people watched.
    A dozen that, given the context of the story, were also drunk. Mankind at its finest.


    also, the facts were already stated as the appeared, in the article. the whole point is to provide comments on the article and its content and reference the dangerous andf unfriendly world around us. we do not need you paraphasing or re"stating the facts as they appear"

    I am providing comments on the article and it's content. I'm critically evaluating what occurred, as it's presented.

    Were you looking for everyone to just say, "I'd kill those kids!!" or "I hope they all burn in hell"?

    I thought you wanted something a little beyond that.


    if you meant to be incendiary and cause a ruckus fine, that happens a lot. you will be labled a troll and ignored as such.

    See above.


    but, if you want to actively participate in this board, welcome and know that differing opinions are always welcome here. but dont expect to have peoplerespond toderogatory comments about a child being raped and beaten with friendly comments.


    Where did I make a derogatory comment?

    Why don't you tell me what, exactly, you were aiming to discuss.




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    Oh, thank goodness, because The Big Guy is user=41232 and Big Guy is user=41652 (right next to Big Gay Al).

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Oh, thank goodness, because The Big Guy is user=41232 and Big Guy is user=41652 (right next to Big Gay Al).


    Say what?

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    Regular Member Harper1227's Avatar
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    Mike_Hawke wrote:
    Harper1227 wrote:
    what else could be derived from THAT comment other then she put herself at risk by drinking in a non-secure environment?
    Is that not an issue? Did she not put herself at risk by drinking in a non-secure environment?

    the issue isnt IF she put herself at risk, but that the public in general is at risk and that no one should go through that while others watch. dismissing it as well she put herself in that situation is derogatory of her. that is my opinion, take it or leave it

    we should not be blaming the victim for putting themself in a bad situation
    should that be the issue, or the fact that she was raped and beaten when as many as a dozen people watched.
    A dozen that, given the context of the story, were also drunk. Mankind at its finest.

    not all of the witnesses were part of the group drinking.
    People came by, saw what was happening and failed to report it."
    also, the facts were already stated as the appeared, in the article. the whole point is to provide comments on the article and its content and reference the dangerous andf unfriendly world around us. we do not need you paraphasing or re"stating the facts as they appear"


    I am providing comments on the article and it's content. I'm critically evaluating what occurred, as it's presented.

    Were you looking for everyone to just say, "I'd kill those kids!!" no, i am pretty sure what most peoplewould say. but i wont begin to assert those assumptions as it is not my place to assume. i myself i know i surely would have stopped it. (and if it were my daughter, possibly yes to the killin part too) or "I hope they all burn in hell"? dont you?
    I thought you wanted something a little beyond that.
    also, i wasnt 'looking' for anyone to say anything. i posted it for the same reason we post any crime that gets posted on here, to let it be known. i just did not expect the first comment to be
    There's something to be said for mob mentality. There's something else to be said for her drinking herself into oblivion. - deep man. if thats your critical eval. thenit is what it is.


    if you meant to be incendiary and cause a ruckus fine, that happens a lot. you will be labled a troll and ignored as such.


    See above. see above

    but, if you want to actively participate in this board, welcome and know that differing opinions are always welcome here. but dont expect to have peoplerespond toderogatory comments about a child being raped and beaten with friendly comments.



    Where did I make a derogatory comment? see above

    Why don't you tell me what, exactly, you were aiming to discuss.




    - the less-big guy sounds like a personal problem



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    mike hawke you are an idiot and i take back my welcome !!!!!!!!! nuffsaid

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    Regular Member Harper1227's Avatar
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    RJHORSE66 wrote:
    <snip>i take back my welcome !!!!!!!!! nuffsaid
    now thats funny. but lets not call names. he just has a different opinion. thats all.



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    DIFFERENT OPINION,,PRETTY MUCH SAYING SHE DESERVED THAT ( PLEASE GIVE ME A BREAK ) OK I'M SORRY FOR THE NAME CALLING BUT IM STILL TAKING BACK MY WELCOME !! :P

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    Harper1227 wrote:
    the issue isnt IF she put herself at risk, but that the public in general is at risk and that no one should go through that while others watch. dismissing it as well she put herself in that situation is derogatory of her. that is my opinion, take it or leave it

    we should not be blaming the victim for putting themself in a bad situation

    First off, show me where I dismissed the issue simply because she put herself at risk.

    The issue IS that she put herself at risk. If you walk into the ghetto, in the middle of the night, umarmed, and DRUNK you're putting yourself at risk. If you get mugged and beaten, isn't the first reply from this board going to be: "What were you thinking, you idiot? Why did you go there?"

    The lesson is thus: Firstly - do not put yourself in harm's way (in her case going off to hang out with a bunch of questionable characters), secondly - do notmakeyourself a target (in her case by beinginebriated).

    That IS the lesson to take away from this. That IS what will help the general public avoid harm.

    I'm not saying her poor choices EXCUSE the behavior. What I am saying is that they CONTRIBUTED to what happened. Had she not gone to hang out with them, it wouldnot have happened. Had she not been blasted, it may not have happened or she may have been able to signal help for herself.



    Now that the core lesson is understood, we go on to rant and rave about the inaction of the passersby. Their actions are secondary because, at that point, the crime was already in progress.

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    Regular Member Harper1227's Avatar
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    Mike_Hawke wrote:
    Harper1227 wrote:
    the issue isnt IF she put herself at risk, but that the public in general is at risk and that no one should go through that while others watch. dismissing it as well she put herself in that situation is derogatory of her. that is my opinion, take it or leave it

    we should not be blaming the victim for putting themself in a bad situation

    First off, show me where I dismissed the issue simply because she put herself at risk.

    The issue IS that she put herself at risk. If you walk into the ghetto, in the middle of the night, umarmed, and DRUNK you're putting yourself at risk. If you get mugged and beaten, isn't the first reply from this board going to be: "What were you thinking, you idiot? Why did you go there?"

    The lesson is thus: Firstly - do not put yourself in harm's way (in her case going off to hang out with a bunch of questionable characters), secondly - do notmakeyourself a target (in her case by beinginebriated).

    That IS the lesson to take away from this. That IS what will help the general public avoid harm.

    I'm not saying her poor choices EXCUSE the behavior. What I am saying is that they CONTRIBUTED to what happened. Had she not gone to hang out with them, it wouldnot have happened. Had she not been blasted, it may not have happened or she may have been able to signal help for herself.



    Now that the core lesson is understood, we go on to rant and rave about the inaction of the passersby. Their actions are secondary because, at that point, the crime was already in progress.
    i have grown tired of this game so the last thing i will say on the matter is that her state of intoxication does not change the fact that a dozen people did NOTHING to stop the assault. which was the point of the article.

    and a crime in progress is still a crime and should be stopped at any point possible. maybe if the first passerby called the police she may have been raped - instead of GANG raped.

    i mean, in your eyes then, had every girl thats been date raped just NOT gone out with that guy in the first place...

    the more you try to defend your stand the worse you are making yourself look. you may just want to call this one a draw before you earn yourself a nasty nickname like Date Rape Mike.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    What kind of school fails to provide security/chaperones outside of the dance on school grounds during an event like that????:?

    The lookie loos are no less animals than the rapists.... Not a real man in the crowd. Just a bunch of filthy animals.... the males and females....

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    Regular Member Riana's Avatar
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    I agree with the first statement - "What is wrong with people?"

    How can someone stand by and watch while one person rapes another? Why did NO ONE mention to the chaperones "Hey, something is going on out there... you might want to check on them..." Hell, even if you thought it might be consensual - it's high school, for crying out loud. People generally don't have sex on school grounds - at least we didn't when I was that age.

    Many years ago, I was walking to a fast food place in Sacramento, and while waiting for the crosswalk, three guys went up to a flatbed truck hauling 10 ATVs (stopped at the light), yanked the driver out of the cab, beat the crap out of him, and took off with the truck. The 911 operators had their hands full with the dozens of calls they got (including mine) describing the incident, perpetrators, vehicle, license plates, etc. The cops picked the guys up within an hour with the information they had (including info from the bystander who had the gumption to follow them to where they intended to off-load the ATVs).

    Point is, we all saw something, identified it as wrong, and contacted help. This is how people are supposed to work. If you can't fix it yourself, find someone who can. Something is seriously wrong with us ifwe can just walk by something like this and ignore it.

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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    The lookie loos are no less animals than the rapists.... Not a real man in the crowd. Just a bunch of filthy animals.... the males and females....


    My point exactly. EVERYONE is at fault. They were all acting like a bunch of drunk idiots and just because she was the one that happened to get raped doesn't vindicate her of all wrong doing.



    It's the school's fault for not properly supervising.

    It's the passersby's fault for not doing anything.

    It's the rapists' fault for initiating it.

    and last, but certainly not least...

    It's her fault for willingly making herself an easy target.



    No one, her included, is without blame.



    And drop the date rape strawman. Date rape often involves involuntary intoxication (drugs in drinks, etc). In this case the girl WILLINGLY got herself hammered in the middle of a mob of drunk, less-than-stellar people. If the nth time, that DOES NOT EXCUSE what happened, nor does it mean she deserved it. It means she also shoulders some of the blame - nothing more, nothing less. To state my opinion as anything else is to make a strawman.

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    Regular Member Harper1227's Avatar
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    as long as she - or anyone else for that matter - is aware enough to say no. it is rape - and if they are too out of it, then that is as good as a no. unless she said before passing out "hey, if i pass out go ahead an gang bang me" it is rape.

    no matter the situation she put herself inor poor judgementit is rape and therefor the VICTIM should not be blamed.

    it is attitudes like that that make it so difficult for women to come forward or take rapists to court. they already feel so much internal shame and blame, for someone to say its partially their fault, just perpatuates the problem.

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    Vile, simply vile. This community has some very serious issues.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Mike_Hawke wrote:
    just because she was the one that happened to get raped doesn't vindicate her of all wrong doing.

    It's her fault for willingly making herself an easy target.

    No one, her included, is without blame.

    And drop the date rape strawman. Date rape often involves involuntary intoxication (drugs in drinks, etc). In this case the girl WILLINGLY got herself hammered in the middle of a mob of drunk, less-than-stellar people. If the nth time, that DOES NOT EXCUSE what happened, nor does it mean she deserved it. It means she also shoulders some of the blame - nothing more, nothing less. To state my opinion as anything else is to make a strawman.
    If you are inferring that she as a young adult should know better than to put herself in a risky situation, then I agree that she made poor judgement decisions. If you are inferring that she shares any moral or legal blame for what happened to her, then I am 180 degrees from that. I am not of the belief that she is to blame for tempting them. They should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and I would not hold anyoneresponsible if they were to enact personal justice on these animals. Poor judgement in placing yourself in harm's way does not make you responsible for the actions of the animals taking advantage of you in this vulnerable position. It does not lessen their responsibility for their own actions and does not reduce or negate any penalties which should be imposed.

    Ruthlessactsshould be rewarded with brutal retribution.

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