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Thread: Psych Patient Stabs Doctor, is shot by armed citizen.

  1. #1
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Checked the Virginia Pilot for copy about VCDL's visit to the Norfolk City Council (10/27/2009), and found this instead.

    I think this story is so "What now, Bloomberg!" and"Guns Really Do Save Lives!" I thought it should have its own thread.

    Oh, yeah. The count of people shot by permit-holding gun owners is now 30. (This individual almost certainly has a carry permit.)

    http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/sto...MPLATE=DEFAULT


    By BOB SALSBERG
    Associated Press Writer


    AP AUDIO

    class=audioAP correspondent Bob Salsberg reports the psychiatric patient was shot dead after attacking a doctor.



    AP AUDIO

    class=audioAP correspondent Bob Salsberg reports police say a man stabbed a doctor while being treated at a psychiatric ward at a Boston medical building.


    BOSTON (AP) -- A man stabbed a doctor while being treated at a psychiatric office at a Boston medical building Tuesday and was fatally shot by an off-duty security guard who saw the attack, police said.

    The attack took place in the afternoon at a high-rise affiliated with Massachusetts General Hospital.

    The female doctor, identified by hospital officials as Dr. Astrid Desrosiers, was in serious, but stable condition. Police said the suspect died of the gunshot wounds. He was identified as Jay Carciero, 37, of Reading.

    "During the course of the stabbing incident an off-duty security officer who was armed interceded. He produced a weapon and ordered the suspect to drop the knife. And when the suspect did not comply, he shot the suspect," said Boston Police Commissioner Ed Davis.

    The security guard was not affiliated with the hospital and just happened to be on the fifth-floor of the building where the attack occurred, according to Bonnie Michelman, the hospital's security director.

    "Certainly heroic, we are happy he was here," said Michelman.

    The victim also works as an instructor in psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and is affiliated with the Haitian Mental Health Program. Public records show the 49-year-old Desrosiers was licensed to practice in the Massachusetts 16 years ago.

    Desrosiers is a graduate of the State University of Haiti's School of Medicine and Pharmacy and the Harvard University School of Public Health. Her major research interests include the role of psychosocial factors in the treatment of mood disorders, health disparities and the impact of multicultural issues on patient care.

    "A caring and dedicated professional, Dr. Desrosiers has spent her career providing extraordinary care and treatment to patients who are among the most vulnerable and those with the most severe psychiatric disorders," Massachusetts General Hospital said in a statement. "Her commitment, compassion and courage are an inspiration to all of us. The entire MGH family is pulling together for her speedy recovery."

    Carciero's sister-in-law, Lisa Carciero, said the family was devastated by the news and would not make public comments. Carciero and his brother, John, did not have home phones listed.

    Police temporarily locked down the Staniford Street building, telling employees and patients they could not leave. Nearby streets were shut down for about an hour. They were let back in when authorities determined the danger had passed.

    David Schoenfeld, a biostatistician who works in another suite of offices on the fifth floor, where the attack took place, said he heard a commotion and found the suspect lying on the floor.

    "Two nurses rushed in and administered as much first aid as they could until the ambulances arrived a couple of minutes later," Schoenfeld said.

    Schoenfeld said he did not see the doctor who had been stabbed.

    The attack took place at the Massachusetts General Hospital Bipolar Clinic & Research Program, in a building near the main hospital. The program provides clinical care, conducts research and educates the community about bipolar disorder, according to its Web site.

    The building is in a largely commercial area that includes businesses with treatment specialties and several medical groups associated with Massachusetts General.

    "There wasn't too much panic or confusion in the building," said Arthur Frigault of Waltham, who was with his wife for an ophthalmology appointment on the sixth floor.

    Frigault, who did not hear the shots, went to the lobby but was not allowed to leave as police entered the building. He later saw a man and a woman taken, on stretchers, from the building. He said the woman was "all bloodied up."

    David Wert, who lives near the medical building, was home with his infant daughter when he saw the commotion outside and became worried about his wife, Alicia, who works on the second floor.

    "We came out to see if Mommy was OK," said Wert, who was carrying his child. Police did not allow him in the building, but his wife called him about five minutes later to say she was all right.

    "It was pretty nerve racking," Wert said.

    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  2. #2
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    "During the course of the stabbing incident an off-duty security officer who was armed interceded. He produced a weapon and ordered the suspect to drop the knife. And when the suspect did not comply, he shot the suspect," said Boston Police Commissioner Ed Davis.
    I've read about the "21 foot rule" and all that, but this statement raises a question in my mind. If the aggressor is standing there, holding a knife, but not making any move or other aggressive actions toward you or another person, do you fire?

    I suppose the situation here was clear that he had just stabbed the doctor, so failure to immediately surrender does pretty much put them in the role of aggressor, even if they are not presently "aggressing". And if the victim was still present, then the presence of the still-armed aggressor does prevent help from reaching the victim.

    I guess I wonder what if the person was deaf or did not understand English? Of course seeing a gun in their face is a universal language, but I wish the report had provided more details about the demeanor of the attacker just prior to the shooting...

    Thoughts?

    TFred


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    Regular Member Hendu024's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    "During the course of the stabbing incident an off-duty security officer who was armed interceded. He produced a weapon and ordered the suspect to drop the knife. And when the suspect did not comply, he shot the suspect," said Boston Police Commissioner Ed Davis.
    I've read about the "21 foot rule" and all that, but this statement raises a question in my mind. If the aggressor is standing there, holding a knife, but not making any move or other aggressive actions toward you or another person, do you fire?

    I suppose the situation here was clear that he had just stabbed the doctor, so failure to immediately surrender does pretty much put them in the role of aggressor, even if they are not presently "aggressing". And if the victim was still present, then the presence of the still-armed aggressor does prevent help from reaching the victim.

    I guess I wonder what if the person was deaf or did not understand English? Of course seeing a gun in their face is a universal language, but I wish the report had provided more details about the demeanor of the attacker just prior to the shooting...

    Thoughts?

    TFred
    That's the deal breaker right there. The person already showed that he was willing to do serious bodily harm to someone else. By not complying with commands to drop the knife, the attacker showed that he was still at least contemplating doing more damage. Game over.

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    Regular Member vt800c's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    more details about the demeanor of the attacker just prior to the shooting...
    ??? let me see...if it was me:

    "Hmm I just stabbed someone who was actually trying to HELP me. and there is a guy with a gun pointed at me telling me to drop the knife.

    no..I LIKE this kninfe. I am going to keep it.

    what was that loud noise just now?

    Ow! Damn that HURT! ****!"

    yeah, I think tahe about sums it up.:?
    I sell ObamaBlades: Single-edged razors you can use to either remove the bumper sticker off your car, or slash your wrists..whichever works best for you.

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    One BG....DRT! No costlytrial because of his inevitableinsanity defense, no cost of incarcerating him in an institution for years and years, andno funeral for his victim...thanks to a legally armed private citizen !!! If they had to wait for the police to get there...the Dr would be dead right now!

    When will these anti morons get it?

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    This report contained668 words. I count only54 that in any way pertain to the most important aspect of the story. If not for this citizen, how many more times could the nut job have been able to stab the doctor? How many other hospital workers could he have hurt or killed before the police showed up?

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    VApatriot wrote:
    This report contained668 words. I count only54 that in any way pertain to the most important aspect of the story. If not for this citizen, how many more times could the nut job have been able to stab the doctor? How many other hospital workers could he have hurt or killed before the police showed up?
    You mean like at Virginia Tech?

    There are many facets to this story.

    It happened in Boston, MA. Boston's mayor and Bloomberg collaborated to establish MAIG. MAIG promotes "common sense" gun control legislation, one aspect of which is to close the gun show loophole so that (among others) mentally ill persons can't get guns, and to (ultimately) restrict handguns to police and military. So in Boston, we have an armed (gun permit holding)non-police officer shooting a mentally ill individual who was attacking (attempting to kill)someone with a deadly weapon which wasn't a gun, and required no background check to obtain. It does not appear that any gun laws were violated!

    Will the shooter's heroic deed receive official public recognition? The police response was to lock down the building and cordon off the neighborhood.

    Too bad the patient didn't use one of those handy dandy fire axes often located inside glass cases stenciled "Break in Case of Emergency". Then, perhaps this type of incident could be referred to as the Lizzie Borden Loophole. Boston isn't very far from Fall River.

    MAIG supporters take great delight in pointing out that gun permit holders have killed 29 people in the last 3 months. I'm sure nowthat the count is 30, they'll be elated.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Edited: Sorry, deleted my post because someone else already made the same point.

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