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Thread: Stafford Home Invasion - Broad Daylight!

  1. #1
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Hope someone can post some better informed comments to the article.

    TFred

    http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2...282009/503769/

    Pair ties up, robs Stafford woman
    October 28, 2009 12:36 am

    BY KEITH EPPS

    Stafford authorities last night were looking for two armed men who tied up and robbed a county woman after breaking into her home Monday afternoon.

    Sheriff's spokesman Bill Kennedy said police got a 911 call at 12:49 p.m. regarding a home invasion in the Garrison Woods apartment complex in North Stafford.

    The victim said two men, both carrying handguns, forced open her door and tied her up with tape.

    They then placed her and her two small children in the bathroom. The woman told police she had never seen the men before.

    The suspects took jewelry, a television and other items before leaving in a white Crown Victoria.

    Kennedy said witnesses got a good description of the car as it was leaving the complex, and police in Prince William found the car later Monday.

    The people in the car were not the same ones who committed the robbery, Kennedy said. But some of the woman's property was still in the car.

    The car was turned over to Stafford authorities and Kennedy said detectives last night were in the process of identifying the suspects.

    Both suspects were described as black males. One was 5 feet 7 inches tall with braided hair or dreadlocks. He was wearing a black jacket and had at least one gold tooth.

    The second man was 6 feet 4 inches tall, thin, and was wearing blue jeans and a black cap.

    Anyone with information is asked to call the Sheriff's Office at 658-4400 or Crime Solvers at 659-2020.

    Keith Epps: 540/374-5404
    Email: kepps@freelancestar.com

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    Glad eveyone is OK.

    Just Obama supporters cutting out the middle man. Nothing to see here, folks.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    The comments are horrendous. Range from "guns are bad - even in the hands of criminals" to "I hope the next guy(s) who trys that get killed" to "the kids could have whipped their butts except they might get caught in the crossfire" to "buy an alarm system" to a short discussion of whether or not one is required to retreat to the walls in Virginia.

    I am NOT going to get involved with the Chinese fire drill the comments are turning into. FDon't know why anyone would want to jump into that pit.

    One good thing was stated - unless you have it on you, having agun isnot going to help you in a home invasion situation.

    Glad there were no physical injuries. Hope Mom & her kids can get past the psychological issues of being invaded and tied up.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    The reason they call it "home invasion", rather than "burglary", is that part of the definition of "burglary" is that it takes place "in the night-time". If it happens in daylight hours, it's the civil wrong called "trespass" and the crime of "breaking and entering".

    Burglary is traditionally categorized as one of the five "serious" felonies as to which deadly force is generally excusable. But all the serious felonies (rape, robbery, arson, burglary, and murder) involve the same elements as the self-defense/defense of others rule.

    If a person breaks into the house in the night-time, there is a presumption that he is willing to kill the occupants, who are probably there, probably sleeping, and probably defenseless. Hence the justification for the use of deadly force.

    But if someone breaks in in the daytime, the presumption is that the occupants are probably "out in the fields", working, or at least that they're up and around and able to defend themselves if need be. So deadly force is not authorized, because that would only be a defense of the real estate. Deadly force is never, ever, justified in the defense of "mere property" (including the family pet or car).

    Conclusion: if, during the "home invasion", the legitimate occupants formed a reasonable belief, based on objective facts, that they or other innocent third parties were faced with the imminent and immediate threat of serious bodily injury, then deadly force is the reasonable response, and is excusable. That's because the threat is against humans, and not property.

    But you can't ordinarily shoot someone just for coming into your house uninvited during the daytime. You can order them out, and use such force as is reasonable under the circumstances to escort them out of the house and off the property.
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    user wrote:
    Conclusion: if, during the "home invasion", the legitimate occupants formed a reasonable belief, based on objective facts, that they or other innocent third parties were faced with the imminent and immediate threat of serious bodily injury, then deadly force is the reasonable response, and is excusable. That's because the threat is against humans, and not property.
    Such as the home invader drawing a weapon? Or would merely possessing one on their person qualify?

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    user wrote:
    The reason they call it "home invasion", rather than "burglary", is that part of the definition of "burglary" is that it takes place "in the night-time". If it happens in daylight hours, it's the civil wrong called "trespass" and the crime of "breaking and entering".

    Burglary is traditionally categorized as one of the five "serious" felonies as to which deadly force is generally excusable. But all the serious felonies (rape, robbery, arson, burglary, and murder) involve the same elements as the self-defense/defense of others rule.

    If a person breaks into the house in the night-time, there is a presumption that he is willing to kill the occupants, who are probably there, probably sleeping, and probably defenseless. Hence the justification for the use of deadly force.

    But if someone breaks in in the daytime, the presumption is that the occupants are probably "out in the fields", working, or at least that they're up and around and able to defend themselves if need be. So deadly force is not authorized, because that would only be a defense of the real estate. Deadly force is never, ever, justified in the defense of "mere property" (including the family pet or car).

    Conclusion: if, during the "home invasion", the legitimate occupants formed a reasonable belief, based on objective facts, that they or other innocent third parties were faced with the imminent and immediate threat of serious bodily injury, then deadly force is the reasonable response, and is excusable. That's because the threat is against humans, and not property.

    But you can't ordinarily shoot someone just for coming into your house uninvited during the daytime. You can order them out, and use such force as is reasonable under the circumstances to escort them out of the house and off the property.
    While I would never doubt your legal opinion, the only problem I have with what you are citing (and it's probably the law I have a problem with...not your opinion) is that there has been a rash of "home invasions" locally recently...one I know of resulting in an elderly woman being beaten and raped, one resulting in a teenage girl being killed, and several others that have resulted in harm to the people that just happened to be home. I haven't researched it enough to know all the details; but, wouldn't an established pattern like that give a reasonable assumption that if someone breaks into your home, no matter what time of day it is, that if people are home...they are in danger?

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    The intrinsic disparity between "burglary" and "home invasion" abides in whether the residents are present or not at the initiation of the act.

    Classically a burglary took place at night (under cover of darkness) but has been generally expanded by statutes to include any felony breaking and entering with intent to burgle (steal).
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    I wouldn't dispute your premise. But the case hasn't happened yet in Virginia that would result in that change, to my knowledge. One thing I've been working on is the "castle doctrine", which is in direct conflict with the more recent traditions in Virginia law.

    The castle doctrine states that a person has an absolute right to defend his home (and the curtilage, or area immediately around the home and used as part of the home) against invasion, using deadly force if necessary.

    Increasingly, the state wants cops to be able to break into a house suddenly and unannounced without getting themselves shot up. The problem is that if the law is structured in such a way that they can do that (ignoring the fact that the bad guys are going to shoot the cops up anyway), then it needs to cover when criminals break in, as well. Maryland, as I understand it, is pretty solidly in that camp, which is one reason why I call it a "pro-crime" state.

    Although Virginia has been trending in the same direction, I see room for argument. There are statutes that state that whatever the common law, acts of parliament, etc. were in England as of the third year of the reign of James I (1607, the founding of Jamestown), that's good law in Virginia. Thus, there are English and early Virginia cases that define the castle doctrine, and state clearly that it's good law in Virginia.

    There is no statute to the contrary, and the court decisions that go the other way fail to make any kind of rational analysis of the castle doctrine or to unequivocally state that it is being judicially overruled. There is a recent case that holds that there is no statute in Virginia enacting the castle doctrine; that comment was made in passing, and without taking what I've noted above into consideration. It ignores the fact that no specific statute is required for the castle doctrine to be law.

    It's clearly idealistic to say, "Wait until there's a palpable and serious threat to your body before you shoot.", that's not entirely practical in the context of a violent home invasion. Ultimately, some jury is probably going to have to determine whether the specific facts and circumstances of the case as presented in the evidence establish proof beyond a reasonable doubt that an occupant committed a crime because of the unnecessary use of deadly force.

    Put it this way: I'd be willing to defend someone who defends his home against invasion, even absent an immediate threat, on that basis. I'd feel comfortable arguing that the castle doctrine is good law in Virginia, notwithstanding recent but erroneous court decisions to the contrary.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member vt800c's Avatar
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    fully_armed_biker wrote:
    is that there has been a rash of "home invasions" locally recently...one I know of resulting in an elderly woman being beaten and raped, one resulting in a teenage girl being killed, and several others that have resulted in harm to the people that just happened to be home. I haven't researched it enough to know all the details; but, wouldn't an established pattern like that give a reasonable assumption that if someone breaks into your home, no matter what time of day it is, that if people are home...they are in danger?
    I would think if someone brakes into your home KNOWING you are there, they have an intention of causing grevious bodily harm, no matter WHAT time of day. result? BANG!

    If someone is breaking into my house without prior knowledge that I am there, and I surprize them, the 'fight or flight' reflex will kick in. As they are in unfimilar area and therefore uncertain of a safe flight direction, they would more often hesitate to the point of resistance. Result? BANG!

    If I arrive home and someone is in my house uninvited (and as I own more than one single gun, knife or baseball bat) I can only make the presumption that they will be surprised, have already found my firearms,and take defensive measures. Result? BANG! (repeat as necessary)

    if this happens in the hours not defined as day, I will make the presumption that the threat may be able to 'get away and return with co-consperitors' to prevent the escalation of the situation, the result would be :BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG Click
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    Regular Member vt800c's Avatar
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    Double-tap. Sorry


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    From the Stafford Sheriff's office, the crime of the week. this is in a particularlycrime prone part of Stafford. A lot of subsidized housing there.





    Stafford County Crime Solvers
    540-659-2020


    UP TO $1000 REWARD


    October 28, 2009



    WANTED



    Daquan Fortman
    21 year-old / Black Male (no photo available)
    Daquan Fortman is a suspect in a Home Invasion and Abduction that occurred on Monday, October 26, 2009 at 11:30 am, in Garrison Woods Apartments Complex in North Stafford . Daquan Fortman frequents the Northern Virginia area, Dumfries , Maryland , Prince William, and Washington D.C.

    Two suspects entered an apartment armed with a handgun demanding money. Once inside, the suspects bound the feet and hands of a 3-year-old female and 8-year-old female along with their mother and placed them in the bathroom. The suspects then stole various property from the residence then fled in a white ford Crown Victoria with 30 day tags and dark tinted windows.

    Daquan Fortman / Suspect 1: Described as a black male, between 18 to 25 years of age, 5’7” to 5’9”, medium build, dreads or corn rows, goatee wearing a black North Face jacket and gray New Balance tennis shoes.

    Suspect 2: Described as a black male, between 18 to 25 years of age, 6’0”, medium build, wearing blue jacket and blue jeans.





    Garrison Woods Complex




    ANYONE WITH ANY INFORMATION REGARDING THIS CRIME, PLEASE CONTACT:

    Stafford County Crime Solvers
    540-659-2020



    OR



    Stafford Sheriff’s Office
    Detective Chris Cameron
    540-658-4711





    Crime Solvers asks and encourages anyone with information in this case or any other crimes, to please call the Stafford County Crime Solvers at 540-659-2020 or Toll Free 1-866-493-1083. Remember that you do not have to give your name, just your information. If your information leads to an arrest or indictment, you could receive up to a $1,000.00 reward.




    [The above Crime of the Week can also be viewed by visiting the Stafford Sheriff’s Office website]http://www.staffordsheriff.com






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    This happened all of maybe 2 miles from the condos that my wife and I just moved into last week. My wife isn't the type to be like "oh god, you want to carry a gun everywhere?" anyway, but especially with something like this hitting close to home, needless to say, she is very supportive of my OC desire....

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    AEubanks wrote:
    This happened all of maybe 2 miles from the condos that my wife and I just moved into last week. My wife isn't the type to be like "oh god, you want to carry a gun everywhere?" anyway, but especially with something like this hitting close to home, needless to say, she is very supportive of my OC desire....
    I'm less than a mile from there. My daughter lives even closer. Think Imay be giving her a pistol.

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    Yeah, I plan on getting my wife one too. Right now I have a Sig Mosquito .22 that she shoots (just to get her familiar and comfortable with pistols, but I hope to get her something that will be effective soon. It's just horrible timing right now with a baby on the way and just moving here, money is uncomfortably tight. She has shot 1 round from my XD .40 (which I knew was way too much firepower for her 4'10" self, but she wanted to try it anyway)... So we will see how it goes.

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    You might try a larger handgun for her. My wife, 5' and petite, prefers larger automatics because of the less "felt" recoil.

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    user wrote:
    SNIP It's clearly idealistic to say, "Wait until there's a palpable and serious threat to your body before you shoot.", that's not entirely practical in the context of a violent home invasion. Ultimately, some jury is probably going to have to determine whether the specific facts and circumstances of the case as presented in the evidence establish proof beyond a reasonable doubt that an occupant committed a crime because of the unnecessary use of deadly force.

    Put it this way: I'd be willing to defend someone who defends his home against invasion, even absent an immediate threat, on that basis. I'd feel comfortable arguing that the castle doctrine is good law in Virginia, notwithstanding recent but erroneous court decisions to the contrary.
    In his book, In the Gravest Extreme, MassadAyoob points out that any intruder into the home, by carrying a weapon, has declaredhis intentions should he meet a homeowner.

    Of course, maybe he just plans on using it to scare a homeowner into compliance or leaving him alone long enough for him to escape. But, if the home intruder is armed, the homeowner cannot really afford to take the chance that compliance will result in survival.

    If I recall, Ayoob's armed-burglar-intentions comment comes up in the book section about dealing with an upstairs armed bad-guy. Ayoob goes so far as to recommend that if you see the bad guy has a gun in his hand, and his back is towards you, shoot him without challenge, in the back. The rationale being that verbally challenging him allows the bad guy to whirl reactively,and shoot faster than you can react to his whirl.

    The book was written in the '80s. I haven't heard that Ayoob modified or rescinded the advice, although he may have.
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    Citizen wrote:
    user wrote:
    SNIP It's clearly idealistic to say, "Wait until there's a palpable and serious threat to your body before you shoot.", that's not entirely practical in the context of a violent home invasion. Ultimately, some jury is probably going to have to determine whether the specific facts and circumstances of the case as presented in the evidence establish proof beyond a reasonable doubt that an occupant committed a crime because of the unnecessary use of deadly force.

    Put it this way: I'd be willing to defend someone who defends his home against invasion, even absent an immediate threat, on that basis. I'd feel comfortable arguing that the castle doctrine is good law in Virginia, notwithstanding recent but erroneous court decisions to the contrary.
    In his book, In the Gravest Extreme, MassadAyoob points out that any intruder into the home, by carrying a weapon, has declaredhis intentions should he meet a homeowner.

    Of course, maybe he just plans on using it to scare a homeowner into compliance or leaving him alone long enough for him to escape. But, if the home intruder is armed, the homeowner cannot really afford to take the chance that compliance will result in survival.

    If I recall, Ayoob's armed-burglar-intentions comment comes up in the book section about dealing with an upstairs armed bad-guy. Ayoob goes so far as to recommend that if you see the bad guy has a gun in his hand, and his back is towards you, shoot him without challenge, in the back. The rationale being that verbally challenging him allows the bad guy to whirl reactively,and shoot faster than you can react to his whirl.

    The book was written in the '80s. I haven't heard that Ayoob modified or rescinded the advice, although he may have.

    I have no moral problems with this. I'd take my chances with a grand jury.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Look at it this way. If you live in a two-story home and have shouted downstairs that you have called the police and you have a gun and the BG continues to advance to and up the stairs, you have a serious threat with which to contend. DO NOT let him get upstairs! While Virginia has no duty to retreat requirement, as long as you are not party to the encounter/escalation, stand your ground and do what you must do.

    Let's face it. Most people who are of a mind to break into someone's home, are not likely to do this when the owners are present. However, home invasion is a different thing. For the "casual" thief, your shouts are probably going to send them running out of the house. For the more sinister types, you must have another plan. In either case, you must always assume a worse case scenario, then work backwards from there as events unfold.

    The BG who ignores your shouts to get out (if you decide to do this) is the most dangerous. Have a plan, practice it, and be prepared to put it into play.


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    Regular Member vt800c's Avatar
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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    The BG who ignores your shouts to get out (if you decide to do this) is the most dangerous. Have a plan, practice it, and be prepared to put it into play.
    If He's close enough to hear me shout in my own house, he's TOO close.

    I figure if a BG is in my house...it's gonna be BANG BANG first! If he needs a weapon before the cops get there, I'll let him borrow a kitchen knife or baseball bat, dependsing on which door he entered through. Even if I miss, I think the cops can run a DNA sample from the yellow stain on the carpet, or the brown streak heading out the door.

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    vt800c wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    The BG who ignores your shouts to get out (if you decide to do this) is the most dangerous. Have a plan, practice it, and be prepared to put it into play.
    If He's close enough to hear me shout in my own house, he's TOO close.

    I figure if a BG is in my house...it's gonna be BANG BANG first! If he needs a weapon before the cops get there, I'll let him borrow a kitchen knife or baseball bat, dependsing on which door he entered through. Even if I miss, I think the cops can run a DNA sample from the yellow stain on the carpet, or the brown streak heading out the door.
    I understand, but you may be missing my point. All I'm saying is this. Say you are awaken by someone breaking into a door or window off of your patio or deck, or perhaps a basement door. You have time to have your wife call 911 as you arm yourself in begin to put your plan into effect. You hear the BG downstairs and you yell at him to get out and he does. Guess what? You won. He's no longer a threat and your family is safe.

    Now same scenario, only this time when you yell, he doesn't leave. Now he is a potentially deadly threat and should be treated as such.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Anyone stupid enough not to notice the cowpie sized "landmines" in my yard can deal with the 140 pounds of fur covered attitude that will be downstairs before I am. My 45 will deal with the survivors. If they crash in at night my cat is a greater threat than the dog, as she will be running down the stairs under the perps feet afterI sit up in bed suddenly. The dog will meet them on the stairs.
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    Regular Member vt800c's Avatar
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    I figure the sound of him breaking my glass should be enough of a warning. I am NOT gonna shout 'HEY', or do anything drasticuntil I have an understanding it's a BG beyond a reasonable doubt (teenage kids coming home can be loud too...) At that point he is a THREAT.

    He is not an uninvited guest, He is not someone who was on their way home from church choir practice and just turning their life around. It is someone who is violating my personal space.

    just because he turns and leaves...he is not a threat AT THAT POINT. but there are other points....wha makes you sure he's acting alone? And 2 on 1 IS a threat.

    are you willing to take that bet?
    I sell ObamaBlades: Single-edged razors you can use to either remove the bumper sticker off your car, or slash your wrists..whichever works best for you.

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