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Thread: The [BATF ag] eTrace Fraud Exposed', JPFO.org

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    http://www.jpfo.org/articles-assd/etrace-fraud.htm

    [Teaser excerpt]

    Are you aware that the BATFE has for several years been aggressively offering eTrace to local law enforcement agencies? They have the agency sign a memorandum of agreement and then the agency can run traces on any firearm they wish. The catch is that the agency has to agree to run a trace on ALL CRIME GUNS. The MOU defines a CRIME GUN as:

    "The parties agree that a 'crime gun' is defined as "any firearm that is illegally possessed, used in a crime, taken into police custody, or suspected by law enforcement officials of having been used in a crime."

    The key word in this definition is "taken into police custody." I have been a law enforcement officer for over thirty years and held positions up to the rank of Detective Commander. Only a very small portion of firearms that are taken into custody could possibly be considered a "crime gun." TV and movies aside, we run into very few "smoking gun" cases where we have a firearm left at the scene a crime, and it is a rare instance that knowing who was the first lawful purchaser of a firearm would serve any investigatory purpose. We take hundreds of firearms into custody as found property, safe-keeping, recovered-stolen or in possession of individuals who have been arrested. In all those cases, including arrests, it is of very little consequence who bought the gun from Acme Sporting Goods ten years ago.

    If you expand the term "taken into police custody" to include any firearm that an LEO has temporary custody, such on a traffic stop of an otherwise lawful firearms owner, you could literally be running traces on hundreds of guns for no legitimate purpose. For larger department it could run into the thousands.


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    Regular Member okboomer's Avatar
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    Well, Doug, this could ultimately work against BATFE ... the statistics they compile should show that the majority of weaponsLEO take into custody are actually in a 'lawful' state ... in the hands of a licensed gun holder. When these statistics bear out the 2A assertion that guns in the hands of licensed bearers are not a danger to the public, then maybe we can get legislation passed that limits the scope of background checks.

    Meanwhile, if you happen to have a gun that is not in the registration database, you might want to take steps to lessen the chance of it getting into the database, i.e. keep it at home in the gunsafe rather than carrying.

    I love to makeagencies follow their own rules. :celebrate
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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    okboomer wrote:
    Well, Doug, this could ultimately work against BATFE ... the statistics they compile should show that the majority of weaponsLEO take into custody are actually in a 'lawful' state ... in the hands of a licensed gun holder. When these statistics bear out the 2A assertion that guns in the hands of licensed bearers are not a danger to the public, then maybe we can get legislation passed that limits the scope of background checks.

    Meanwhile, if you happen to have a gun that is not in the registration database, you might want to take steps to lessen the chance of it getting into the database, i.e. keep it at home in the gunsafe rather than carrying.

    I love to makeagencies follow their own rules. :celebrate
    What the hell is a licensed gun owner????


    There is no Federal license and in most states there is no state or local license.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Very good posting Doug. I want to see what this MOU is all about.

    I recommend a nationwide FOIA campaign to see exactly what the terms of sharing are in these MOUs.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    okboomer wrote:
    Meanwhile, if you happen to have a gun that is not in the registration database, you might want to take steps to lessen the chance of it getting into the database, i.e. keep it at home in the gunsafe rather than carrying.
    Not going armed is fulfilling their agenda.

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    One needs to take a look on the brain washing that is being done (some folks only need a light rinse) repeating of the term "licensed gun owner" over and over again lends a thought of fact to this and in some states your are required to be licensed to own firearms "Massachusetts" comes to mind. in that state you have to have a permit have ammo components in your poss.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Rattrapper wrote:
    One needs to take a look on the brain washing that is being done (some folks only need a light rinse) repeating of the term "licensed gun owner" over and over again lends a thought of fact to this and in some states your are required to be licensed to own firearms "Massachusetts" comes to mind. in that state you have to have a permit have ammo components in your poss.
    LOL... good choice of words! The gun-ignorant media is mostly reasponsible for that mentality. Nearly anytime a 'gun' is used... the boob tube morons will purposely inject 'Registation, License, or Permit' in some manner into the 'story'. Over time... the generally institutionalized gun-ignorant populace accepts this line as 'factual'.

    The anti-gun politicians will attempt to perpetuate this lie with legislation. In many states... that legislation is/has beenenacted contrary to the Constitution. Yet... many of these same politicians present themselves as champions of 'civil rights'. Well... selective civil rights... even when actual rights are not involved. The media has deliberately obfucated 'Rights, Licence, Permit, Priveledge and Allowance' IMHO, because they've been 'educated' (indoctrinated) by government schools and even private universities... especially 'Liberal' universities. I'd be hard pressed to name one that wasn't at this point in time.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    okboomer wrote:
    Meanwhile, if you happen to have a gun that is not in the registration database, you might want to take steps to lessen the chance of it getting into the database, i.e. keep it at home in the gunsafe rather than carrying.
    Or obtain older guns that do not have serial numbers.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    okboomer wrote:
    Meanwhile, if you happen to have a gun that is not in the registration database, you might want to take steps to lessen the chance of it getting into the database, i.e. keep it at home in the gunsafe rather than carrying.
    Or obtain older guns that do not have serial numbers.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    FOIA for my City:





    29October 2009



    XXXX XXXXX

    XXXXXXXXXXX

    Newport News, VA 236XX



    James D. Fox

    Chief of Police, Newport News, VA.



    Sent via e-mail to chfoff@nngov.com on 29 Oct 2009



    Dear Chief Fox,

    I am very concerned by reports that law enforcement agencies in Virginia have apparently signed Memorandums Of Understanding (MOUs) with the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) for the use of eTrace for crime guns. The BATFE definition of crime gun apparently includes any gun “taken into custody”.

    I am therefore making a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request for a copy of any MOU that you have signed with BATFE for the tracing of handguns, firearms or weapons. I would also ask for a copy of any department memorandum, procedure, directive or other written guidance on obtaining trace data from the BATFE and department policy on providing personal data related to guns seized to the BATFE or the FBI.

    BATFE may also be known as ATF or BATF. This FOIA request considers all of these acronyms to be the same organization and asks for the requested information regardless of which agency name or acronym is used in the documents.

    I would ask that responsive data be delivered to me electronically. My e-mail address is xxxx@xxxxx.com. Please contact me prior to proceeding if the cost of processing this FOIA will exceed $25.00.

    Thank you for supporting the open government principles that the FOIA promotes.

    Live Free or Die,

    XXXXXXXXXXXX


    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Thundar wrote:
    "Live Free or Die
    Thanks for the sample. Sounds fairly routine until you see this closing! That should wake up the office administrative support!



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    okboomer wrote:
    ... in the hands of a licensed gun holder. When these statistics bear out the 2A assertion that guns in the hands of licensed bearers ...
    Meanwhile, if you happen to have a gun that is not in the registration database, you might want to take steps to lessen the chance of it getting into the database, i.e. keep it at home in the gunsafe rather than carrying.
    In the first part of the quote "licensed gun holder" I should have clarified that I live in a state that does not have open carry, so theguns that would be "taken into custody" would be from the possession of CCL holders, or criminals which would then qualify for the eTrace. The LEO generally leave hunting guns alone here. And carrying a concealed weapon here is a felony, do not pass go, do not collect $200. And a loaded gun in a car is considered a concealed weapon if it is anywhere other than in plain view on the front seat. And I do not see that lasting for much longer.

    In the second part of the quote, instead of assuming that I meant to go unarmed, how about assuming I meant that folks should have a newer gun?

    Back to the first part, my gun serial number has been run by LEO twice, but I don't know if they have an MOU w/BATFE or not. As it is, the serial number of the gun that I took my CC class with was recorded and sent to OSBI for their records, so it is possible that the serial number check was only within the state to see if it was a stolen gun. As private gun sales are still legal in Oklahoma, there are several ways that a stolen gun could wind up in an innocent person's hands without them actually committing a crime. And before you jump down my throat, I have seen it happen!

    Guy in class to be CLEET certified (we have to certify with the weapon we are going to carry, serial # registered with CLEET), had bought several guns from a cousin who's husband had recently died and didn't want the guns around. The instructor called the serial #'s in as a shooting badge was also issued, and the next day, the instructor had a highway patrol officer at the class and the guy had to surrender the pistol and they escorted him home to check the SNs on the other guns of which 2 more were hot. Luckily, he had a sales receipt from the cousin or he wouldhave been charged with transporting stolen across state lines. He said he didn't think his cousin knew the guns were hot when she sold them to him, but he said he wasn't surprised that the husband had hot guns.


    cheers - okboomer
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Lead, follow, or get out of the way

    Exercising my 2A Rights does NOT make me a CRIMINAL! Infringing on the exercise of those rights makes YOU one!

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    Thundar wrote:
    okboomer wrote:
    Meanwhile, if you happen to have a gun that is not in the registration database, you might want to take steps to lessen the chance of it getting into the database, i.e. keep it at home in the gunsafe rather than carrying.
    Or obtain older guns that do not have serial numbers.
    Or, DIY: make your own gun.

    I wonder how the blue-card nazis would react to illegally confiscating a gun with no identifying marks of any kind? How deep of a hole would they dig for themselves? Willing to cross one line, why not a 3 or 4 more?
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    I'ma little confused. Was this not what the Tiahart Amendment was about? Meaning, is this a back door way of getting around the Tiahart Amendment?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    A good rule of thumb is that if there is a way of finding out what firearms you own, the BATFE and other government agencies are doing it, legal or not. Unless you bought your gun from a private seller with no paperwork (4473) and have never had it examined by a cop, it's in a federal database somewhere with your name next to it. To think otherwise is to be naive.

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    It pays to be old enough to have acquired a number of firearms prior to 1968, or to be the beneficiary of someone who was. I wonder how much to add to the price for that small detail.:what:
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    I have been a law enforcement officer for over thirty years and held positions up to the rank of Detective Commander.
    At the rist of exposing my ignorance, I have a question for the OP: When the police take custody of a firearm, for example during a traffic stop, and they "run the serial number," is JUST the serial number entered / recorded or is there also some record made that the gun was in the possession of John Q. Citizen?

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    SecondAmendmentStudents wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote:
    I have been a law enforcement officer for over thirty years and held positions up to the rank of Detective Commander.
    At the rist of exposing my ignorance, I have a question for the OP: When the police take custody of a firearm, for example during a traffic stop, and they "run the serial number," is JUST the serial number entered / recorded or is there also some record made that the gun was in the possession of John Q. Citizen?
    Illegal registration schemes, I'm thinking, don't have an official protocol or documented procedure...
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

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    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    okboomer wrote:
    Meanwhile, if you happen to have a gun that is not in the registration database, you might want to take steps to lessen the chance of it getting into the database, i.e. keep it at home in the gunsafe rather than carrying.
    Not going armed is fulfilling their agenda.
    What, you've only got one gun?

    Christ, man, I'm a poor college student, and I have two decent carry guns.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    AbNo wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote:
    okboomer wrote:
    Meanwhile, if you happen to have a gun that is not in the registration database, you might want to take steps to lessen the chance of it getting into the database, i.e. keep it at home in the gunsafe rather than carrying.
    Not going armed is fulfilling their agenda.
    What, you've only got one gun?

    Christ, man, I'm a poor college student, and I have two decent carry guns.
    In Virginia, use grip tape to protect your gun. Unfortunately for the PoPo this will also obscure the identifying marks onmany guns. (Be careful in California.They havea wierd law about covering up serial numbers, evenfor your own property.)

    Sterile open carry whenever you can.

    There is no statewide stop and identify law in Virginia, but there is a local ordinance in some cities, towns and counties. Give your full name and address unless you know that there is no local law requiring it.

    Do whatever you can do to keep your info out of the hands of big brother.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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