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Thread: The new Target Sports in Keego Harbor-- FAILED!

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    So, today is opening day for the new Target Sports gun shop and range in Keego Harbor.

    I walk in OC'ing, go up to the cash register, and ask for information on range hours and costs and CCW classes and costs. The guy (who later I found out is the manager) talked with me for a few minutes on that, invited me to walk over to the range by myself if I wanted toand take a look, and didn't say a darn thing about me OC'ing. So far, so good. I go to the outer window of the range and watch some people in there for a few minutes. Then I go browsing the firearms. A guy behind the counter asks if I need help, and I ask if he can get me a box of 9mm. They seem to be cool, so I'll gladly patronize.

    Then, a girl at the cash register says "we request you cover" the gun. I tell her if I don't have a CPL, she would be asking me to do something illegal. That shut her up, but the manager walks over and says he'll give me permission to cover it in the store. Itell him that OC is lawfuland ask if they support all forms of lawful carry. He says they only allow CC. He asks if I'm "testing" them. I say, no I'm here shopping but do they prohibit open carry? He says yes, so I tell him I'm going to shop elsewhere. Bye bye.

    It escapes me how places like this sell guns to people, yetdon't want them to lawfully use guns. All the while, the employees are open carrying themselves. That's somewhat schizophrenic,and I don't give money to crazy people.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    DanM wrote:
    but the manager walks over and says he'll give me permission to cover it in the store.
    And that would be legal in Michigan?? huh?

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I believe it would be, IF you were somehow going to be pretending to live there.

    But that doesn't really make sense.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

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    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
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    I know everyone is going to yell at me but you know, I can't say I really blame a gun store for this policy. After all, there is atactical advantage to carrying openly right? In a place of business where a robbery could easily become your demise, I guess I would try to maintain that advantage as well. Not to say crooks typically carry openly, but I would still try to maintain the tactical advantage just in case.
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    Hmmm good point..

    But wouldnt it be better for them to havearmed snipers track you around the store as you do your shopping..




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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    JeffSayers wrote:
    I know everyone is going to yell at me but you know, I can't say I really blame a gun store for this policy. After all, there is atactical advantage to carrying openly right? In a place of business where a robbery could easily become your demise, I guess I would try to maintain that advantage as well. Not to say crooks typically carry openly, but I would still try to maintain the tactical advantage just in case.
    DUDE!!! go outside and take some deep breaths! You have been poisoned by the coolaid! They are fools!

    What advantage do they gain by not knowing a person is armed???
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    autosurgeon wrote:

    What advantage do they gain by not knowing a person is armed???
    If a guy is robbing the store, and the guy behind him doesn't have a weapon, the robber can focus his attention more on the task at hand.

    If it's concealed, I'll give him some surprise gunfire to the back.

    Simple enough. Granted, I'm not advocating one or the other. I personally only OC during OC picnics, only because I'd rather have the element of surprise. I understand both sides of the fence, just my personal preference.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    Mike wrote:
    DanM wrote:
    but the manager walks over and says he'll give me permission to cover it in the store.
    And that would be legal in Michigan?? huh?
    No, not for a non-CPL holder. Section 234d prohibits possession (pistol) in those places listed under subsection (1), but a gun shop is not one of them. However, Section 227 prohibits CC unless you're in your dwelling/property, your place of business or other land you're in possession of.

    IOW, a non-CPL holder may OC in the gun shop with or without permission of owner or agent but may not CC even with permission. Of course, he/she may be asked to cover up or leave.

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    DanM wrote:
    but the manager walks over and says he'll give me permission to cover it in the store.
    And that would be legal in Michigan?? huh?
    No, not for a non-CPL holder. Section 234d prohibits possession (pistol) in those places listed under subsection (1), but a gun shop is not one of them. However, Section 227 prohibits CC unless you're in your dwelling/property, your place of business or other land you're in possession of.

    IOW, a non-CPL holder may OC in the gun shop with or without permission of owner or agent but may not CC even with permission. Of course, he/she may be asked to cover up or leave.
    Correct. It is not legal in Michigan, and that manager has absolutely no authority whatsoever to give a patron permission to conceal. It holds as much legal weight as the patron giving himself permission to conceal anywhere he wants.

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    More people need to do this, not shop at places that do not support the US Constitution. Good for you and thank you for that. I will shop no where that says I can not OC.

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    Safes Unlimited in Keego sells guns also. (no range yet though) The owner Len and his wife are great people and are very helpful and respectful of their customers. I would recommend trying them for gun needs .

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    MMC wrote:
    Safes Unlimited in Keego [Harbor] . . . are very helpful and respectful of their customers.
    I agree. I've OC'd there with no issues at all. Go to Safes Unlimited if you want to not be hassled about your chosen form of carry.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    malignity wrote:
    autosurgeon wrote:

    What advantage do they gain by not knowing a person is armed???
    If a guy is robbing the store, and the guy behind him doesn't have a weapon, the robber can focus his attention more on the task at hand.

    If it's concealed, I'll give him some surprise gunfire to the back.

    Simple enough. Granted, I'm not advocating one or the other. I personally only OC during OC picnics, only because I'd rather have the element of surprise. I understand both sides of the fence, just my personal preference.
    Your kidding right? Please tell me that you just forgot to add the little smiley faces to note your writng as only sarcasm.

    The element of surprise is only valid when you are onthe offensive, It offers no defensive advantages.
    Lets use this as a comparison;
    Do security camerasworkbetter to deter crime when they are hidden from view? NO!
    They only work to deter crime when they are highly visible.
    Same thing with a firearm,


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    ghostrider wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    DanM wrote:
    but the manager walks over and says he'll give me permission to cover it in the store.
    And that would be legal in Michigan?? huh?
    No, not for a non-CPL holder. Section 234d prohibits possession (pistol) in those places listed under subsection (1), but a gun shop is not one of them. However, Section 227 prohibits CC unless you're in your dwelling/property, your place of business or other land you're in possession of.

    IOW, a non-CPL holder may OC in the gun shop with or without permission of owner or agent but may not CC even with permission. Of course, he/she may be asked to cover up or leave.
    Correct. It is not legal in Michigan, and that manager has absolutely no authority whatsoever to give a patron permission to conceal. It holds as much legal weight as the patron giving himself permission to conceal anywhere he wants.

    Let me play "devil's advocate" here for a second... The store is private property. As an agent for the owner of the private property, wouldn't he be able to allow a guest to that property to cover up?

    Does this MCL apply to private property?

    Can you sit inside a car, open carrying without CPL, in someone's driveway? While this would be illegal on a public road, what about on private land?

    Or can you conceal inside of a friend's home, if his wife doesn't like you to open carry?

    Just throwing a little gas on the fire.


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    Phoenixphire wrote:
    ghostrider wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    DanM wrote:
    but the manager walks over and says he'll give me permission to cover it in the store.
    And that would be legal in Michigan?? huh?
    No, not for a non-CPL holder. Section 234d prohibits possession (pistol) in those places listed under subsection (1), but a gun shop is not one of them. However, Section 227 prohibits CC unless you're in your dwelling/property, your place of business or other land you're in possession of.

    IOW, a non-CPL holder may OC in the gun shop with or without permission of owner or agent but may not CC even with permission. Of course, he/she may be asked to cover up or leave.
    Correct. It is not legal in Michigan, and that manager has absolutely no authority whatsoever to give a patron permission to conceal. It holds as much legal weight as the patron giving himself permission to conceal anywhere he wants.
    Assuming the "guest" does not have a CPL...

    Let me play "devil's advocate" here for a second... The store is private property. As an agent for the owner of the private property, wouldn't he be able to allow a guest to that property to cover up? No. The owner/agent provisionapplies to those places enumerated under Section 234d, Subsection (1) and a gun store is not one of them. Even then, with permission from owner/agent, the guest would need to OC in those otherwise prohibited places.

    Does this MCL apply to private property? Yes, other than dwelling/property, businessor other land possessed by the guest.

    Can you sit inside a car, open carrying without CPL, in someone's driveway? While this would be illegal on a public road, what about on private land? No. Only if the guest was in/on his/her own driveway/property.

    Or can you conceal inside of a friend's home, if his wife doesn't like you to open carry? No, see above. 750.227 is very clear/specific where a non-CPL holder may conceal.

    Just throwing a little gas on the fire.

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Can you sit inside a car, open carrying without CPL, in someone's driveway? While this would be illegal on a public road, what about on private land? No. Only if the guest was in/on his/her own driveway/property.
    What if you are a 18 or older, but live with your parents? Since they technically are on the deed to the property and not the young adult, could he/she OC in a vehicle on that property?

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    T Vance wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Can you sit inside a car, open carrying without CPL, in someone's driveway? While this would be illegal on a public road, what about on private land? No. Only if the guest was in/on his/her own driveway/property.
    What if you are a 18 or older, but live with your parents? Since they technically are on the deed to the property and not the young adult, could he/she OC in a vehicle on that property?
    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

    If the 18 yr. oldcan prove they live there then they should be good.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Bronson wrote:
    T Vance wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Can you sit inside a car, open carrying without CPL, in someone's driveway? While this would be illegal on a public road, what about on private land?Â* No.Â* Only if the guest was in/on his/her own driveway/property.
    What if you are a 18 or older, but live with your parents? Since they technically are onÂ* the deed to the property and not the young adult, could he/she OC in a vehicle on that property?
    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

    If the 18 yr. oldÂ*can prove they live there then they should be good.

    Bronson
    I do believe there is more specific statute describing pistols, rifles and other weapons on personal property. From what I understand it's illegal to be in your vehicle on your own property with a loaded rifle. Pistols are fine.

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    mikestilly wrote:
    Bronson wrote:
    T Vance wrote:
    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Can you sit inside a car, open carrying without CPL, in someone's driveway? While this would be illegal on a public road, what about on private land? No. Only if the guest was in/on his/her own driveway/property.
    What if you are a 18 or older, but live with your parents? Since they technically are on the deed to the property and not the young adult, could he/she OC in a vehicle on that property?
    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

    If the 18 yr. oldcan prove they live there then they should be good.

    Bronson
    I do believe there is more specific statute describing pistols, rifles and other weapons on personal property. From what I understand it's illegal to be in your vehicle on your own property with a loaded rifle. Pistols are fine.
    Belief is one thing, seeing cites is another.

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    Thats too bad. I live around the corner and would really like a place to shoot only 5 min away. Maybe e-mails or letters would make them reconsider, but I doubt it.

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    Put it away and relax. This is just the kind of behaviour we all dont need.

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    Personally....And i use that word meaningfully, I dont see a point in CC besides avoiding m.w.a.g calls and annoying LEO, If a theif sees that the store hes about to rob is full of faithful customers carrying loaded firearms im 110% sure he would find someplace else to go and be a moron.... JMO...shoot it up if ya like
    "If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." -- Samuel Adams, 1776

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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Why was this thread bumped after 6 months of inactivity?

    Looks like someone from Target Sports decided to come to our forums and start a troll war.

    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    American Boy With a Gun wrote:
    Personally....And i use that word meaningfully, I dont see a point in CC besides avoiding m.w.a.g calls and annoying LEO, If a theif sees that the store hes about to rob is full of faithful customers carrying loaded firearms im 110% sure he would find someplace else to go and be a moron.... JMO...shoot it up if ya like
    I agree with you as far as a thief would be detered by a store full of people ocing. But, I also thinkthere are situations where cc might have it`s advantages over oc. Please don`t get me wrong, I supportoc as well as cc and I would love to see more people excercising thier rights as far as oc is concerned.

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