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Thread: OC Shopping trip in Raleigh...

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    The video card in my Mac laptop went belly-up last night, so I had to take my laptop to the Apple Store in the Crabtree Valley Mall in Raleigh, fo a 6:00pm appointment. Before going, I looked at their website, and it's a good thing I did. Their website says they ban all weapons--open or concealed. When I got there, I left my Para in the car (parked right out in the first row on the ground floor of the parking garage), and walked up to the door. No sign of ANY kind--Had I not checked the website first, I probably would have just walked on in, with the Para and an extra mag in my Serpa rig...

    Well, I was in and out of the Apple store pretty quick--those guys are GREAT, and even though I'm about 2 months out of my extended warranty, they still are going to spiff me the repair--no matter WHAT is wrong with it--totally free of charge, including a stem-to-stern diagnostic, and de-fragging my HD while they are in there...

    Anyway, on my way out, I had to use the restroom, which was down a long hallway, and had an entrance to the parking lot (on the opposite side of the mall as my car). I looked at the doors on THIS entrance (which is also where the "Security" office is) and it had a large sigh--text only--that said "NO CONCEALED WEAPONS". Hmmm...

    I walked around the mall for a little while longer, and then exited from a different door than I entered closer tot he Apple store, but further from my car). Once outside, I turned around to examine any signage that might be on THIS door,and there it was, prominently displayed, one of those standard "gun in a red circle with a slash" signs.Double Hmmmm...

    Three entrances. One with NO signage, and two with very different signs--one outright banning guns, and one that only prohibited concealed...

    When I go back to pick up my Mac next week, I may have to stop by the security office and have them clear this up for me...

    Crabtree Valley Mall, Raleigh: a BIG FAT "F"
    (because not only do they prohibit firearms, their signage is inconsistent and contradictory)


    After that, I got in my car and went to the other side of the mall, where there is a Best Buys and a Barnes & Noble. Driving by their front doors, I didn't notice any signs, so I put my Serpa and Para back on my belt, and walked into the Best Buys to look at some new headphones for my iPhone, a networked hard drive, and to see if they had any big Martin Logan speakers in the "Magnolia" listening room. While looking at the headpones, a young associate came up to me and asked if he could help. We talked about headphones for a while, then he asked me "is that REAL?". I told him yes, and told him what I was carrying. We talked some more about headphones, and then I thanked him and turned to go. He then said "hey do you have to have a permit for that?" and, well I just couldn't resist the chance to do a little OC public relations session. So we talked for about 10 minutes on OC in NC, and getting a CHP, and the law in general. He thanked me for the info, and I thanked him for not getting all weird about me OCing. Then he said "I just moved down here from Virginia, I'm used to seeing guys wearing guns walking around town". We both laughed, shook hands, and I left.

    Best Buys at Crabtree: a Big A+ for OC!!!


    Then I walked over to Barnes & Noble to see if they had the most recent issue of "Clay Shooting USA" magazine, which they did! I grabed a copy, looked at other magazines for a few minutes, then walked through their "discount" isles for a while, then up to the checkout area. Walked past a lot of customers--guys, women, mothers with little kids, and Ididn't hear a single gasp, whisper, or see a single finger point. The checkout lady saw me coming up with the sporting clays magazine in my hand and my Para on my hip, smiled a friendly smile and said "so you must be really into guns?". I told her that I was just learning to shoot clays, but I'd been into shooting sports since I was 10 years old. She asked "don't you need a permit to carry that?", and I though gosh, what are the chances of 2 favorable encounters and great opportunities to educate people in the same night, and in the same shopping plaza. So as she's ringing me up, I tell her about OC, and I wrote down the URL of this website for her, and we talked about OC and CC in NC. She seemed very interested, and was very cordial.

    Barnes & Nobles Books, Crabtree: A+


    On the way home, I stopped for gas at the Hess/Bojangles plaza on the west side of Greenville. I've OC'd there before and had no troubles, and it was getting late, so I left my rig on, gassed up, and then walked in to get a snack and use the head. While washing my hands in the mens room, another guy came up to the sink beside me and said "hey, that sure ani't no BB gun, is it?". I said "no, it's a .45acp, and it is VERY real". And for the third time today, he asked me if I needed a permit to carry. Well, I'd had plenty of practice by now, and was feeling pretty excited about being an advicate for OC, so we stepped out of the mens room into the store, and started talking about OC and CC and NC laws in general. He seemed very interested. He pulled out his "Disabled Veteran" ID card, and I told him he should have no problem buying a gun as long as he didn't have any history of crime, violence, or mental treatment, and he seemed very interested. I told him about OCDO, we shook hands, I thanked him for his service to our country, and went our separate ways.

    Hess, Greenville (east side): A+


    So it started off as a REALLY crappy day--with a dead laptop and the disheartening proposition that I'd be spending a LOT of money to get it fixed, and it turned out to be a VERY good day--free repairs courtesy of Apple's FANTASTIC customer service, and THREE very favorable OC experiences where the staff and other customers were super cool, and I had the opportunity to educate three people about OC.

    Life is good.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member turbodog's Avatar
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    Good job speadin the word brother!
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Him: "I carry my gun concealed"
    Me: "You're not very good at it"
    Him: "What do you mean?"
    Me: "I know you have a gun"
    End of conversation.

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    Crabtree recently put in new doors at the entrance to the Food Court. The new doors have no signage at all.

    Missing signs mean that no carry is not legaly enforcabe.

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    Yep, it was definitely the food court doors where I noticed no signage...

    But what I found particularly odd was that the sign on the door to the hallway where the bathrooms and the SECURITY OFFICE is on the bottom level read "No Concealed Weapons". Didn't say anything about OC or a general prohibition. But the other doors all have the "circle-slash" picture sign...

    When I go back later this week to pick up my laptop from repair, I'll have to be sure and stop in and ask them about the signs.

    Or maybe I'll just enter that door (the one with the "No Concealed sign) OCing, and see what happens.

    But maybe I'll do that AFTER I go in unarmed and retreive my computer, of course...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    That circle/slash sign is on a lot of libraries too. It's always confused me. Judging from a common sense interpretation of the concealed carry statue, it carries no weight to prohibit concealed carry. But I guess it hasn't been tested in court yet, has it?

    And as an aside, Apple definitely has great customer service and great products. Macs just work. Period. I stopped suffering in PC-land 3 years ago and have never looked back.

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    Yes, I agree with the Apple comment. I've been an Apple Computer owner since 1982, and this is the FIRST hardware failure I've ever had. Not bad for 26 years of ownership...

    And the fact tha they are going to cover the repairs--free of charge--on a computer that is 2 months out of warranty is just FANTASTIC. Try THAT with a Dell, Gateway, or Lenovo...

    Hopefully I'll have it back on Friday...

    Meanwhile, I've been OCing all over Greenville and Washington, with ZERO hassle, several supportive comments, and a few inquisitive people who's questions allowed me to slide into "OC education mode". It's been a very productive few weeks. I suppose I'm officially an "OC Activist" now...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    glockaholic wrote:
    That circle/slash sign is on a lot of libraries too. It's always confused me. Judging from a common sense interpretation of the concealed carry statue, it carries no weight to prohibit concealed carry. But I guess it hasn't been tested in court yet, has it?
    The Library here in Washington NC doesn't have a "circle slash" sign, but it does have a sign that says they prohibit "disruptive conduct", and then goes on to include "carrying a firearm" under that category. I need to ask the librarian what they mean by that--if it covers CC, is a "general prohibition", only covers OC, or if they just mean if you are waving one around.

    Personally, I can't see how wearing a 1911 in a Serpa Level 2 retention holster counts as "disruptive behavior". My guess is the only people that would be disruptive in that situation are raving anti's throwing a hissy fit.

    Personally, I'm the very model of decorum and politeness when I carry. Sometimes I have to tell my wife to calm down when I'm carrying and we're out (like if we're getting really bad service in a store, or some cash-register-jockey is running her an attitude), because when I'm CC, the LAST thing I want is to be part of a party that started a disruption.

    Funny thing though--when I OC, everyone is REALLY polite and service is usually GREAT--even from the attitude-laden slackers behind the counters in fast food restaurants...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Maybe since libraries were meant to study, do research, read, and borrow books;they don't want the one million and one questions being asked to an open carrier, about how they OC like that, wont you be arrested for doing so, blah blah blah etc. This would certainly create a noisy environment, which all public libraries hate most.

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    Mr. Glock wrote:
    Maybe since libraries were meant to study, do research, read, and borrow books;Â*they don't want the one million and one questions being asked to an open carrier, about how they OC like that, wont you be arrested for doing so, blah blah blah etc. This would certainly create a noisy environment, which all public libraries hate most.
    Yah, it would be a shame if someone were actually educated about OC in a library. I mean, everyone knows nobody goes to the library to learn about stuff. :P

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    I went to the library today to renew a couple books, and although I left the Para in the car, I kept my empty Serpa on my hip..

    I asked the librarian to clarify the sign they had on the door. She said if I had a CHP, and kept my firearm concealed, there would be no problem. She also said that since NC was an "open carry" state, that they couldn't keep me from entering the library if I was OCing, but if another patron got agitated by it, they might ask me to leave, or at least to leave it in the car...

    She also said that she doubted that anyone would say anything if I did OC, because she said that most folks would just assume that I was a police officer. (that might have something to do with the way I look--mid 40's, short hair, clean cut, dressed "business casual"...) If someone did complain, I would gladly leave the Para in the car, and come back with an empty holster, and then take the opportunity to educate them as to OC. I mean, the Library is supposed to be a place of learning, so what better place to exercise my 2A rights AND my 1A rights at the same time?

    So I may have to OC the next time I have reason to go to the library, and see how it goes.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Dreamer wrote:
    I went to the library today to renew a couple books, and although I left the Para in the car, I kept my empty Serpa on my hip..
    Awesome story! Thanks for sharing. The librarian you spoke with sounded very reasonable which is encouraging.

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    I went back to Raleigh to pick up my Mac today (Friday). I left my Para in the car on my trip into the Apple store, just in case some mall rent-a-cop decided to make an example out of me BEFORE I retrieved my laptop. Then I took my Mac back to the car, and moved my car up to the third deck by the food court. The Food Court doors are not posted, so I donned the Para and a spare mag (in Matching Tan Serpas) and went into the food court to get some lunch. I ate some very yummy General Tso's chicken, walked around the food court area looking in a few shops, and then headed back out to my car. No problems. Next time I'm in Raleigh, I may have to walk the whole mall.

    Remember folks, the Cranberry Mall Food Court entrance from the third parking deck are NOT posted in ANY form whatsoever. And their map/brochure makes no mention of any weapons prohibition either.

    My nest stop was the high-end audio boutique called "Audio Advisors" up the road (8621 Glenwood Ave) a couple miles north-west of the mall. VERY friendly staff, AWESOME stereo gear, and they didn't even blink. Courteous, well-informed about the gear they sell, and I had a nice conversation with one of the salesmen about turntables and analogue audio in general, plus they were OC-friendly. When I decide to get my new speakers, they are going to be at the top of my list!

    Audio Advisor, Raleigh: A+


    Next, it was the Big Lots on Glenwood, where I got a few looks, but nobody said anything. This store is not posted, and I bough a few Christmas decorations while I was in there...

    Big Lots, Raleigh: A


    Then on to the "Smoker Friendly" in the same plaza, and they were VERY nice. The salesman even gave me a "sample cigar" of one of the new "clove mini cigars". I used to smoke clove cigarettes, but Congress made them illegal in September, so they are now making them with a little tobacco filler and with a processed tobacco wrapper (instead of paper). It was nice of him to give me a sample to try, before I plunked down $5 for a pack--they are nowhere near as smooth, sweet and flavorful as the clove cigarettes used to be...

    Smoker Friendly, Raleigh: A+


    Then I went to the WalMart in the same plaza, to check on ammo supplies. Their pistol ammo shelves were completely bare, except for 2 boxes of Winchester "white box" .40cal, and come CCI .22LR. I got a few looks in there too but nobody said anything.

    WalMart, Raleigh: A


    I topped off my fuel at the BP on Glenwood just across from the WalMart/BigLots plaza, and paid with my credit card, but went inside the store to get a snack and a soda. I don't think the cashier even noticed, but a couple of rather dicey-looking customers came in, looked at me, and then turned right around and went back outside while I was in line...

    BP Gas Station, Raleigh: A+


    So, all in all, it was another good day of OC in Raleigh, in the Crabtree Mall area.

    And I've been pretty much exclusively OCing around Washington as I go about my business these days. WalMart, Pawn Shops, gun stores, gas stations--not a single problem so far.

    I was in WalMart yesterday, and the lady behind the counter remembered me from a conversation we had a few weeks ago about where I work. She glanced at my hip, and then asked if things were still as "exciting" as they were this summer, and I told her that since they closed the bar/club next door, things had gotten a LOT quieter. She smiled and said "yeah , I bet..."

    WalMart, Washington NC: A+ (actually, I've been in this store about a dozen times since the first post, and have NEVER had so much as a look from their staff.)


    I do CC while I'm at work though, because the manager doesn't want to risk scaring any of the guests...

    And I'm OCing while at home pretty much full-time.

    The only time I'm NOT carrying these days is when I go to classes. In fact, I don't even have it in the car because I'm afraid I might get pulled over for some random thing while cutting across campus, and get in big trouble. I don't want to lose my CHP. I'm thinking that next semester, when we really start kicking up the visibility of the ECU's branch of SCCC, I'll probably get on some sort of "must stop list", so I'm sort of laying low this semester...

    NC really needs to get our Restaurant Ban and our College Ban dropped.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Four Seasons Mall in Greensboro has similar signage issues. They have signs in the corridors of the entrances that have rules of conduct. It lists no firearms. The signs are not on the doors and if you come in the mall through any of the department stores you sill not see any signs at all.

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    It's starting to sound to me like many malls here in NC are engaging in a subtle form of entrapment...

    If someone wanted to be a "test case", and we got a formal ruling on required signage (like they have in Arizona for bars and restaurants) then I would imagine that some of these ant-gun venues would rather allow us to carry, rather than spend thousands of dollars on the required, standardized signage.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Dreamer wrote:
    She also said that since NC was an "open carry" state, that they couldn't keep me from entering the library if I was OCing, but if another patron got agitated by it, they might ask me to leave, or at least to leave it in the car...
    Wonder how they'd handle it if you asked them to remove the agitated patron instead?

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    If a library is owned by County or City...is that then considered Public building for Preemption terms? So if it's not posted then they can't ask you to leave correct?
    States don’t have rights. People do.

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    I wouldn't even bother bringing up the signage question. Until it's brought to their attention, they likely won't do anything about it, and until they do post signage, they can't do anything more than ask you to leave the mall.

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    mrjam2jab wrote:
    If a library is owned by County or City...is that then considered Public building for Preemption terms? So if it's not posted then they can't ask you to leave correct?
    Isn't CC prohibited on all government grounds in NC?

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    The library here in town is "Wayne County Public Library". I'd think that was a county building and I leave my piece in the truck. Maybe thats why I don't ever go to the library.

    Same though, the library is full of thugs who come in just to use the free internet since they don't have it in the projects.












    .

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    griv wrote
    Isn't CC prohibited on all government grounds in NC?
    That is for Federal and State property. There is no NC statute prohibiting OC or CC on city property. In fact, with the exception of Cary and Durham, cities are actually prohibited from having general ordinances prohibiting carry that would be more strict that State law, unless they post a given area. And I quote:
    North Carolina General Statute § 14-415.23 provides that no political subdivisions, boards, or agencies of the state nor any county, city, municipality, municipal corporation, town, township, village, nor any department or agency thereof, may enact ordinances, rules, or regulations concerning legally carrying a concealed handgun. A unit of local government may, however, adopt an ordinance to permit the posting of a prohibition against carrying a concealed handgun in local government buildings, their appurtenant premises, and parks.

    Effective June 21, 1996, a new Article 53B was enacted which provides that with certain exceptions, the field of firearms regulation is preempted from regulation by local governments. A county or municipality may regulate or prohibit the sale of firearms at a location only if there is a lawful, general, similar regulation or prohibition of other commercial activities at that location. A county or municipality may also regulate the transport, carrying, or possession of firearms by employees of the local unit of government
    in the course of their employment with that local unit of government. Municipalities or counties retain their authority to prohibit the possession of firearms in publicly-owned buildings or grounds, except that nothing would prohibit a person from storing a firearm within a motor vehicle while the vehicle is on these grounds or areas. N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-
    409.40
    So unless property owned by a local municipality is posted "no firearms", it is legal to carry. Here in Washington, the Parks are all NOT posted, and I've verified with with the Assistant Chief of Police. But the city government buildings ARE. However, the city building ALSO houses the city police station, so it would be a prohibited place ANYWAY under NC law...

    The Library here in town does not have a "circle slash" sign, or a sign specifically saying No Firearms. IT just has an all-text sign (with really small type) stating that they will not allow "disruptive behavior", and they list "carry weapons of any kind" as "disruptive behavior".

    I'm still not sure how OC or CC would be disruptive. My guess is the only disruption tha tmight arise from a law-abiding citizen OCing is the scene that some "anti" would make if they saw it and flipped out...

    Oh, they also consider "Distributing leaflets or posting notice" to be disruptive behavior. So much for the First AND Second amendments in your local library...

    And our library here IS owned by the city. And like I said, according to the ACoP, Washington does not have a general prohibition against carry on city property.

    So I guess it boils down to whether or not your librarian considers exercising your 2A rights is somehow "disruptive"...

    But then again, according to the rues, they would consider Thomas Paine or Ben Franklin practicing their trade on Library property to be "disruptive. Take that for what you may...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    These are excellent OC reports.

    I think different people in different situations are going to have different reactions to employees, security, police, and other patrons of stores and public places. I guess if you look professional or official while OCing, your chances of being hassled are far less.

    Now, the way I took information from my CCW class on malls, particularly Four Seasons here in Greensboro is that signage or not, the carrying of a fire arm is not exactly illegal, however, they can ask you to leave. If not you can be brought up on trespassing charges. Correct me if I'm wrong. I am also wondering now if they have to have signs in order to legally ask you to leave.

    Libraries are kind of doubled up. Since usually they are government owned, I know here in Greensboro, the libraries are city owned and as far as I know it is a City ordinance/statute (whatever) that prohibits firearms on city property. But also, they may be considered educational premises as well (so that may cover places that are non-governmental such as some museums/learning centers).

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    I've looked through the Greensboro City code of ordinances, and I can find no prohibition for OC or CC of firearms on city property.

    http://library1.municode.com/default...ction=whatsnew

    Of course, they may still post signs prohibiting firearms in city buildings, and on parks WITHOUT a specific ordinance, so you need to keep your eyes open for signage, but from what I read (or rather don't read) in their ordinances, there is no codified prohibition against firearms on city property...

    You might want to check with the Chief of Police though, or the City's Attorney...

    http://www.greensboro-nc.gov/NR/exer...MODE=Published

    Good luck...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Oh, I eventually found the city ordinance, I had seen it once before several years ago so I knew it was in there: Chapter 18, Article II, Sections 21 through 25 - Offenses Against Public Safety. Most certainly illegal with the provision that the city posts signs stating no firearms (conspicous signs).

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