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MS Deputy Shoots Suicidal Woman

HankT

HankT

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deepdiver wrote:
HankT wrote:
Sionadi wrote:
but if i walked away (which i would not) and she did kill herself i would think i could have kept that from happening, or if she went on a homicide
Click to expand...

What are your qualifications for handling a situation like that?

That you have a gun?
Click to expand...
:? I see your point, Hank. If I ever come across someone threatening to commit suicide in some manner I'll just tell them their going to have to deal with it themselves because I don't have a gov't certified qualification for handling the situation. :?

Certainly just because someone carries a gun it does not qualify him/her to insinuate himself into any situation involving the misuse of a lethal weapon. On the other hand, there are situations where someone who carries may be able to help another and is more willing/able to intervene because of having a firearm.

The same skill set that makes good police negotiators or psych intervention therapists are found in many business professions. There are many people in sales and management who learn very similar techniques to those taught in psych to talk down someone in crisis or at a high level of excitement. If interacting with someone such as in this situation, being armed yourself may very well increase your survivability or the survivability of others IF the suicidal person decides to be homicidal. A person holding a gun to their head threatening suicide is pretty much by definition unstable.

I'm not suggesting that anyone who carries a firearm should just jump into such situations anymore than someone who stayed at a Holiday Inn Express should. However, IF you do carry and can defend yourself and others if the suicidal person starts targeting you or others and IF the authorities haven't arrived and IF there is indeed such a crisis and IF others are in potential harm's way and IF you have a proven skill set for dealing with crisis intervention, choosing to be involved until the authorities do arrive is not automatically a bad or reckless idea.
Click to expand...

I don't think you disagree with me, DD. I don't accept your suggestion that we do.

But I think it best not to lose my main point: An armed LAC to interact with a suicidal gun wielder, as exemplified by the OP example, with a deployed gun.....is a recipe for utter disaster. It's the epitomy of cop wannabeism.

If'n someone (an OC/CCer) has an itchin' to pull the ole pistola to talk someone down from their manic episode, it's much, MUCH better to walk away, all things considered. Run, if you have to. Run FAST if you can.

Too many civilianguys with hammers out there (see Maslow). Even the cops, with near unlimited-liability, can't be expected to handle those situations well.
 
deepdiver

deepdiver

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HankT wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
HankT wrote:
Click to expand...
But I think it best not to lose my main point: An armed LAC to interact with a suicidal gun wielder, as exemplified by the OP example, with a deployed gun.....is a recipe for utter disaster. It's the epitomy of cop wannabeism.

If'n someone (an OC/CCer) has an itchin' to pull the ole pistola to talk someone down from their manic episode, it's much, MUCH better to walk away, all things considered. Run, if you have to. Run FAST if you can.
Click to expand...
I disagree at your statements of absolutes.

A "deployed gun" meaning the LAC is in an isosceles stance, weapon aimed at the suicidal person screaming, "Drop the gun, get on the f***in' ground, get on the ground!!!!!!" has a 99.9+% chance of being absolutely a bad idea and the epitome of "wannabe" especially if dressed all tacticool at the time.

A deployed handgun meaning an LAC with crisis intervention experience, after directing someone to call 911 and summon authorities, nudging out around the corner of a solid brick building with the sidearm drawn and held along their leg out of the view of the distressee, just in case the distressee decides to go all Seung-Hui Cho on bystanders, then drawing the distressee's attention using verbal crisis intervention technique so others near the distressee can evacuate the area and then maintaining said position and technique until the authorities arrive and then happily standing down, briefing the authorities and going home, not a recipe for utter disaster.

There is nothing about an armed individual in such an irrational state that is an absolute. Modern mass killers tend to be suicidal. It may take very little to turn the murderous intent from self to others. Certainly a very volatile and dangerous situation with a high chance for a negative outcome. People get caught up with the Oprahzation of mental health and think everything is a cry for help. Taking half a bottle of aspirin with a bottle of wine and then calling the first 10 people on your speed dial to tell them good-bye - cry for help. Standing on the roof of a car with a loaded and cocked .357 to your head screaming, "You want a piece of me world!" far past crying for help and very likely to kill themselves or someone else.

Again, there are so very many variables involved that I can't even make a general statement as to whether or not I would get involved. If no other person other than the suicidal individual were at risk it would be HIGHLY unlikely that I would do much of anything besides ensuring 911 was called and trying to keep others away so the distressee can't harm anyone except him/herself.

ETA: forgot to remove excessive quoting
 
P

PT111

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Taking half a bottle of aspirin with a bottle of wine and then calling the first 10 people on your speed dial to tell them good-bye - cry for help.

Rather than a cry for help this is usually a cry for attention. Help is seconday but they just want attention and have no intention of actually dying.

Standing on the roof of a car with a loaded and cocked .357 to your head screaming, "You want a piece of me world!" far past crying for help and very likely to kill themselves or someone else.

This is an absolute shout for help and if they don't get it immediately they are going to kill someone, probably others and themselves. This is the trickiest of all situations that you must balance the probability of others being harmed before the person commits suicide. I don't believe than anyone really wants to die like that they just want things better and immediately. They are frustrated and will take it out on everyone including you and themselves.

Every situation will be different and if you run into one holding a gun at their head you better be careful. If anything talk to them from behind a barrier. LEO may be more trained in this than the average person but they are not experts and I am not sure that there are any expers. There is a lot of talk about what should or can be done but it is all hindsight.

As for standing on a car with a gun, it is a cry for help and the person doesn't really want to die. If all they wanted was to die they would do it quietly with no one looking. Otherwise why would they want everyone to know about it. Suicide by cops is wanting to get a few cops before they get me, an expression of anger.
 
T

Task Force 16

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Would it be safe to say that - only those that want to be talked out of harming themselves or others, can be, by just about anyone? While those that are hell bent on causing harm, can't be de-escalated by anyone.

Someone that really wants to off themselves will do it in a way that no one can stop them, usually alone somewhere.

I agree with deepdiver, whether or notI would attempt to intervene and/or howwould greatly depend on the situation.
 
HankT

HankT

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Task Force 16 wrote:
I agree with deepdiver, whether or notI would attempt to intervene and/or howwould greatly depend on the situation.
Click to expand...

Well, that is ALWAYS the case. Not much information there...



Just remember:


"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail."

A. Maslow
 
P

PT111

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Task Force 16 wrote:
Would it be safe to say that - only those that want to be talked out of harming themselves or others, can be, by just about anyone? While those that are hell bent on causing harm, can't be de-escalated by anyone.

Someone that really wants to off themselves will do it in a way that no one can stop them, usually alone somewhere.

I agree with deepdiver, whether or notI would attempt to intervene and/or howwould greatly depend on the situation.
Click to expand...
I am not sure it would be safe to say that but is a pretty good synopsis of things. I think you are pretty much correct in all of your statements.
 
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bohdi

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Fortunately for the rest of the population, the majority of us aren't single skilled laborers stuck with only knowing the trade and application of the hammer. You are proving yourself to be in the minority though.
 
W

Wangmuf

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protector84 wrote:
Had she chosen not to point her gun at the cop, a response could have been to tase the woman causing her to drop the gun. I would have tried to do that if feasible. Obviously this is a tricky and tragic situation.
Click to expand...

Having personally been tazed, I can tell you that your body does strange things. It's not inconceivable that she would involuntarily pull the trigger in reaction to it, possibly causing an innocent bystander or a cop to get hurt or killed.
 
J

jadedone4

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deepdiver wrote:
HankT wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
HankT wrote:
Click to expand...
But I think it best not to lose my main point: An armed LAC to interact with a suicidal gun wielder, as exemplified by the OP example, with a deployed gun.....is a recipe for utter disaster. It's the epitomy of cop wannabeism.

If'n someone (an OC/CCer) has an itchin' to pull the ole pistola to talk someone down from their manic episode, it's much, MUCH better to walk away, all things considered. Run, if you have to. Run FAST if you can.
Click to expand...
I disagree at your statements of absolutes.

A "deployed gun" meaning the LAC is in an isosceles stance, weapon aimed at the suicidal person screaming, "Drop the gun, get on the f***in' ground, get on the ground!!!!!!" has a 99.9+% chance of being absolutely a bad idea and the epitome of "wannabe" especially if dressed all tacticool at the time.

A deployed handgun meaning an LAC with crisis intervention experience, after directing someone to call 911 and summon authorities, nudging out around the corner of a solid brick building with the sidearm drawn and held along their leg out of the view of the distressee, just in case the distressee decides to go all Seung-Hui Cho on bystanders, then drawing the distressee's attention using verbal crisis intervention technique so others near the distressee can evacuate the area and then maintaining said position and technique until the authorities arrive and then happily standing down, briefing the authorities and going home, not a recipe for utter disaster.

There is nothing about an armed individual in such an irrational state that is an absolute. Modern mass killers tend to be suicidal. It may take very little to turn the murderous intent from self to others. Certainly a very volatile and dangerous situation with a high chance for a negative outcome. People get caught up with the Oprahzation of mental health and think everything is a cry for help. Taking half a bottle of aspirin with a bottle of wine and then calling the first 10 people on your speed dial to tell them good-bye - cry for help. Standing on the roof of a car with a loaded and cocked .357 to your head screaming, "You want a piece of me world!" far past crying for help and very likely to kill themselves or someone else.

Again, there are so very many variables involved that I can't even make a general statement as to whether or not I would get involved. If no other person other than the suicidal individual were at risk it would be HIGHLY unlikely that I would do much of anything besides ensuring 911 was called and trying to keep others away so the distressee can't harm anyone except him/herself.

ETA: forgot to remove excessive quoting
Click to expand...

Agree with poster above; however, add that a LAC should NOT unholster firearm at scene - unless threat moves from suicide's head to others - you do not want confusion on LEO's appearing at scene as to who is M/WwithAG....

Protection of self (and others nearby) is first; removing self/others nearby from threat is second - saving the suicide-guy/gal - pro's.
 
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Seems to me as though she got everything she desired !!

#1 public attention, she didn't go offto an isolated area to rid the world of a whacko, she decided to put on a show, which although is a call for help, it's just a chicken shit way of calling for the state to force her to get a psych.evaluation.

#2 Nowthat she's been mortally wounded, she can get the attention from her love triangle that she desired. Problem solved..

Why, other than waiting for thelaw to arrive, and if I'm packing to help ensure safety of innocent bystanders, should I feel compelled to interrupt my trip to shop for necessities for someone that has no respect for life in the first place, I'd just call the cops, and let the cops call the Mop squad, other than that, I'm outa here, and on with my day!

I don't blame the cops, they did what their trained to do, and that is serve the public and insure the safety of the citizens, this gal just stepped outside the lines of citizen to Whacko WAG.
 
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Sealgar

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I CC to protect my family, friends, and myself. Everyone else has the same rights and duty to protect themselves as I do and should arm themselves. No way am I going to run the risk of a lawsuit by getting involved in some lunatic senario. If it's safe to do so, I will dial 911 and give some details, but that's all.
 
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Capn Camo

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Broken record here, but why is it that Cops know nothign else but to shoot to kill?

Shoot her in the ass. Why always the chest, is it because we are not sufficiently trained in firearms to shoot accurately?
 
N

N6ATF

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Capn Camo wrote:
Broken record here, but why is it that Cops know nothign else but to shoot to kill?

Shoot her in the ass. Why always the chest, is it because we are not sufficiently trained in firearms to shoot accurately?
Click to expand...
Cops have a tendency to practice significantly less than non-cops. So lowest common denominator, they shoot where it's most likely to not miss, and keep shooting because too many rounds will miss completely.

Unless it's a sharpshooter aiming for a particular part of the body or at the weapon itself, or a reflexive "look at weapon, shoot weapon hand" shot, COM is most reliable.
 
tcmech

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JT wrote:
Per other reports the woman tried pulled the trigger with the gun pointed at her head and it didn't fire. Then she pointed itat the deputy.

Mississippi Press


At that point the deputy had little choice. It's was alousy situation for the deputybut since she had already pulled the trigger once it was reasonable to assume she would pull the trigger again.
Click to expand...

I am making an assumption here (and bad things usually happen when I do that) but the article says she had a 38 caliber handgun which to me says it was a revolver.

The fact that it went click once does not mean there was an obvious problem with the weapon that the officer may have seen such as a slide that was obvioulsy not in battery.

I believe that the officer was justified in shooting according to what I have read here.
 
OPS MARINE

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First, I am the WRONG person to put on a suicide watch line because I will WATCH you commit suicide...no, not really, but if you have absolutely no regard for your life (real or dramatized) then I just don't have time. I will run the other way. If there are innocents around, and the instability seems to be reaching a crescendo, there is a great possibility I will standby with my firearm in one hand and a witness on the phone with the responding agency. PWAG shoots (at someone else), I shoot...other than that, reholster, be interviewed and leave.
 
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