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Thread: Armed scarecrow catches robber in VB

  1. #1
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    Not really OC, but relevant to the forum I think. If not feel free to move it. I heard this on the radio this morning on my way to work. Anyone else?

    Originally posted by: Wavy 10
    Scarecrow with a heart saves the day

    Updated: Thursday, 05 Nov 2009, 8:13 AM EST
    Published : Wednesday, 04 Nov 2009, 4:53 PM EST

    * Jason Marks

    VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. - They were having a Halloween party in the right place at the right time. Virginia Beach police told WAVY.com several costumed revelers saved a robbery victim.

    A stuffed scarecrow leans against a wall at the Willow Lake apartment complex in Virginia Beach, with a smirk stretched across its face. The smile could be joy for a fellow scarecrow; one people are calling a hero.

    "I think I was doing the right thing," Samuel Ramos said.

    The scarecrow costume Ramos was wearing Saturday night has long been removed, but the lasting memory from the holiday has not.

    "We were doing a barbeque," Ramos added. "Me and my friends saw this guy running."

    Ramos was standing outside on the porch. As the man darted by, a woman ran behind him.

    "He just robbed this lady at gunpoint," Ramos said. "So right there I started running too."

    Ramos' sprint took him past a giant lake and unsuspecting ducks. He was chasing the suspect and gaining ground.

    "I kept chasing him and so he jumped the fence," Ramos added. "I didn't jump the fence because of my Halloween costume."

    Police say the scarecrow soon cornered the suspect on the next block. What the suspect didn't know was this scarecrow was also carrying a gun. Ramos, a sailor stationed on the USS Kearsarge, has a concealed weapons permit.

    "I went with my gun and I said 'hey man drop it,'" Ramos yelled at the suspect. "I told him give me your gun and I'll let you go."

    Police say Edward Morris handed over his gun to Ramos. The trick was a treat for police. Ramos held Morris until police arrived.

    "I was thinking if I let him go right now maybe he can do the same thing later to somebody else," Ramos added.

    Police recovered the victim's purse and returned it to her.

    22-year-old Edward Morris of Chesapeake is charged with Robbery and Use of a Firearm in the Commission of a Felony. He is being held in the Virginia Beach Correctional Facility without bond.
    Story

    ETA: This will be in the next VCL update

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    this scarecrow was also carrying a gun. Ramos, a sailor stationed on the USS Kearsarge, has a concealed weapons permit.
    That scarecrow is a braver man than me. How can you be "in fear for your life" if you are CHASING after a bad guy in police like manuvers, tactics and negotiations. I am glad it turned out the way it did, but if I WAS in that situation, OBSERVE and REPORT will be my stance.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    So, where were the Tinman and the Lion? Man, ascarecrow just can't count on anybody for back upthese days.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    So, where were the Tinman and the Lion? Man, ascarecrow just can't count on anybody for back upthese days.
    I don't think they were in town, Toto.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  5. #5
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    That scarecrow is a braver man than me. How can you be "in fear for your life" if you are CHASING after a bad guy in police like manuvers, tactics and negotiations. I am glad it turned out the way it did, but if I WAS in that situation, OBSERVE and REPORT will be my stance.
    Actually, not only that, but I wonder if this guy might end up in legal trouble as well.

    If you chase someone, even a robber, it's my understanding that you lose your justification for use of lethal force. Even if the guy stops and turns his gun on you and then you shoot him, would you not be a contributing factor for chasing him down after your imminent threat had passed?

    And in this case, exactly as reported, once the guy drops his gun, it seems you may lose your justification for assault with a deadly weapon (holding him at gunpoint). If the guy had dropped the gun and turned around and walked away, you certainly would not be justified to shoot him, so the whole concept of "holding someone at gunpoint for the police" would seem to be questionable.

    I guess it's good that criminals are not the smartest legal minds on the block.

    Any thoughts on this?

    TFred


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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    So, where were the Tinman and the Lion? Man, ascarecrow just can't count on anybody for back upthese days.
    I don't think they were in town, Toto.

    Yata hey
    Oh! Were they with you, Dorothy? :P
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  7. #7
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    So, where were the Tinman and the Lion? Man, ascarecrow just can't count on anybody for back upthese days.
    I don't think they were in town, Toto.

    Yata hey
    Oh! Were they with you, Dorothy? :P
    Are meaning that a Dorothy Dixor, matey?

    Might be you need DO uR OTHY.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    This guy is probably in a world of hurt for trying to do the right thing, even though it was a increadibly dangerous thing to do. He'll either get a LOC from the NAVY or a reprimand for his service folder. Glad no one was hurt but this could have turned out wrong nine ways from Sunday.

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    TFred wrote:
    ed wrote:
    That scarecrow is a braver man than me. How can you be "in fear for your life" if you are CHASING after a bad guy in police like manuvers, tactics and negotiations. I am glad it turned out the way it did, but if I WAS in that situation, OBSERVE and REPORT will be my stance.
    Actually, not only that, but I wonder if this guy might end up in legal trouble as well.

    If you chase someone, even a robber, it's my understanding that you lose your justification for use of lethal force. Even if the guy stops and turns his gun on you and then you shoot him, would you not be a contributing factor for chasing him down after your imminent threat had passed?

    And in this case, exactly as reported, once the guy drops his gun, it seems you may lose your justification for assault with a deadly weapon (holding him at gunpoint). If the guy had dropped the gun and turned around and walked away, you certainly would not be justified to shoot him, so the whole concept of "holding someone at gunpoint for the police" would seem to be questionable.

    I guess it's good that criminals are not the smartest legal minds on the block.

    Any thoughts on this?

    TFred
    While I'm glad this all turned out well, what this guy did was incredibly stupid. It's one thing to walk upon a crime being commited, or be in the middle of a crime being commited...and pull your gun. It's entirely another thing to inject yourself into a situation and pull your gun. This guy is nothing more than a wannabe and he'll probably get lucky, in this case, with a sympathetic Commonwealth's Attorneybecause no one was hurt. But, all-in-all, is bad for those of us that carry...because it makes us all look like wannabes in many people's eyes.

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    It is still early and I'm from the west coast, so please forgive my ignorance. Are some of you saying that the chasing and capturing of an armed felon changes from brave to "wannabe" just because the goodguy was smart enough to be armed? Do the laws there require you to stop being a fellow citizen and only report what you saw, or can you actually do something about it?

    Laws and customs are different in different places, so please educate me.

    LoveMyCountry

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    In Virginia, you may use deadly force to protect yourself from serious bodily harm or death. You may NOT use deadly force to protect property (IE: chasing down a bad guy that just stole a purse). If he had shot the BG, he would be in a LOT of trouble becuase he was a "fleeing felon". Not even an LEO can shoot a fleeing felon unless he "poses a substantial threat of bodily harm or death to others OR is in posession of nuclear material OR materials / documents that if released, places the security of the country in grave danger (posession of Top Secret /TS Codeword stuff)".

    MY wording may be off, but that's the gist ot if...

    BG was running away... no longer a threat. Can't shoot him.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

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    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    What he did was perfectly legal. The guy made a personal decision to intervene and fortunately everything turned out ok. I don't think we should Monday Morning Quarterback him.

    Would I have done the same thing? Maybe. Maybe not. You don't know what you will do until you are presented with that particular set of circumstances.

    I have physically intervened when a guy was beating his wife and restrained him for Va.Beach PD. I was almost arrested when his wife refused to press charges against him. A good cop informed me that since she wouldn't press charges against her husband, he could now press charges against me.

    The cop told me he was going to "interview the male victim" and when he came back, he didn't want to find me there. Good cop. I left the scene.

    On two different occasions, I came to the rescue of police officers that were on their backs, getting the snot kicked out of them.

    On another occasion, I stopped at a fire at the feed store in Norge and saw a guy trying to move a tanker-truck full of petrol away from the fire. I yelled at him to get away from the fire. He said that the truck was full of gas and that if it exploded, it would take the entire area out with it.

    I grabbed my tow-chain from my truck and attached it to the tanker and couldn't move the damn thing. My FAST Team buddy that was with me found a rope and attached it to the other guys truck and together we were able to move the tanker before it exploded.

    Were these acts stupid? Maybe. Did I wake up on those days thinking that I wanted to be a hero? No. Would I react the same today as I did then given the same set of circumstances? I don't know.

    You never know what you will do until you find yourself in the situation. The guy did what he thought was right under the circumstances, it was legal and he took a BG off the street. We should support him.
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    In Virginia, you may use deadly force to protect yourself from serious bodily harm or death.Â* You may NOT use deadly force to protect property (IE: chasing down a bad guy that just stole a purse).Â* If he had shot the BG, he would be in a LOT of trouble becuase he was a "fleeing felon".Â* Not even an LEO can shoot a fleeing felon unless he "poses a substantial threat of bodily harm or death to others OR is in posession of nuclear material OR materials / documents that if released, places the security of the country in grave danger (posession of Top Secret /TS Codeword stuff)".

    MY wording may be off, but that's the gist ot if...

    BG was running away...Â* no longer a threat.Â* Can't shoot him.
    Thank you for the info. My next question then is can you chase a badguy while you are armed and only use your weapon if the BG turned and threatened your life? Does the mere fact that you posess a lawfull weapon require you to be a "bystander only" if you observe a crime in progress? Would the GG now be the agressor if he chases the BG? Would the BG now be legally defending himself if he shot you while you were chasing him?

    LoveMyCountry

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    ODA - I think what most here are saying is that there is a difference between stopping someone in the comission of a bludgening on another, and pursuing someone who is fleeing the scene of a relatively non-violent (victim wasn' screaming murder/rape) crime.

    Advocating that CHP's actively perform those things is dangerous and irresponsible. More harm can come from chasing down a purse snatcher than letting them go.

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    Regular Member Hendu024's Avatar
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    I'm just waiting for Hank to chime in with some stupid @$$ comment. In 3..2..1..

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Hendu024 wrote:
    I'm just waiting for Hank to chime in with some stupid @$$ comment. In 3..2..1..
    Heheheh... SOON now... Wait for it... Wait for it... We'll be re-reading one of his silly postulates about shooting an unarmed person.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
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    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    My main point was he's lucky he didn't get shot...chasing after an armed suspect, while wearing a Halloween costume, was an invitation for disaster. If the BG would have stopped, turned, and fired...he'd be lucky if he survived.

    Secondly, by going on the offensive, he opened himself up to whole litany list of possible criminal charges and civil liabilities...If he would have shot the BG, no matter what the circumstances were at that point, he would lose in a civil lawsuit filed bythe BG or the BG's family if he didn't survive.

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    bohdi wrote:
    ODA - I think what most here are saying is that there is a difference between stopping someone in the comission of a bludgening on another, and pursuing someone who is fleeing the scene of a relatively non-violent (victim wasn' screaming murder/rape) crime.

    Advocating that CHP's actively perform those things is dangerous and irresponsible. More harm can come from chasing down a purse snatcher than letting them go.
    Bohdi,

    I understand that completely. However the idiot wasn't the guy in the scarecrow outfit. It was the woman chasing the guy that just robbed her at gunpoint! NOW THAT IS STUPID!

    I don't disagree with you at all. I'm a firm "Be a Good Witness" advocate also. However, sometimes people get involved out of INSTINCT not WISDOM. I'm guilty of it and I'm sure others on this board are also. It hasn't been determined if the scarecrow knew that the perp had just committed an armed robbery or not. Could he see that the perp was armed? We don't know.

    No one knows ALL of the circumstances of this case. All I'm saying is let's not jump to conclusions and start bashing this guy until the case is played out.
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    fully_armed_biker wrote:
    My main point was he's lucky he didn't get shot...chasing after an armed suspect, while wearing a Halloween costume, was an invitation for disaster. If the BG would have stopped, turned, and fired...he'd be lucky if he survived.

    Secondly, by going on the offensive, he opened himself up to whole litany list of possible criminal charges and civil liabilities...If he would have shot the BG, no matter what the circumstances were at that point, he would lose in a civil lawsuit filed bythe BG or the BG's family if he didn't survive.
    Yup! Agreed! You are absolutely correct my friend! Sometimes it's best to go against your instincts and be a good witness as I've said before. It can be a lot cheaper too! ( Civil Court can be VERY expensive! )
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    ODA - roger that man. I'm interested to see if he gets praised or slammed by his command for this.....I can see it now. The guy gets a minor cut or tweaks his ankle and they decide to hit him with damage to government property etc and make an example out of him....

  21. #21
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    bohdi wrote:
    ODA - roger that man. I'm interested to see if he gets praised or slammed by his command for this.....I can see it now. The guy gets a minor cut or tweaks his ankle and they decide to hit him with damage to government property etc and make an example out of him....
    OT: I remember my boss threatening to put me on report for a severe sunburn once. "Damaging government property" is no joke if they want to pin that on you...

    Edit: A debilitating hangover on a Monday morning also counts...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  22. #22
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    I almost got nailed for that with a 2nd degree sunburn too. I ended up going to the emergency room, getting 2 liters of IV, and some really painful out patient treatment for the next five days when I first got to the PI.

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    bohdi wrote:
    ODA - roger that man. I'm interested to see if he gets praised or slammed by his command for this.....I can see it now. The guy gets a minor cut or tweaks his ankle and they decide to hit him with damage to government property etc and make an example out of him....
    Then there is the question, potential problem, of does he live on base housing with a weapon.

    Understand both sides of the issue - hard to say what you might have done unless you were actually there.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
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    Unfortunately, legally,this guy was in the wrong. I'm not trying to condemn him, just warning others.

    You should never chase a victim. If you are involved in any part of the escalation, that includes chasing, you forfeit your right to self defense; unless, you retreat as far as you can. Then it gets grey according to court case I have read.

    However, you do have the right to protect property as well as person. Checkout VA code 18.2-280. Just not when the person is running away.

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    Regular Member Hendu024's Avatar
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    RipCurl wrote:
    Unfortunately, legally,this guy was in the wrong. I'm not trying to condemn him, just warning others.

    You should never chase a victim. If you are involved in any part of the escalation, that includes chasing, you forfeit your right to self defense; unless, you retreat as far as you can. Then it gets grey according to court case I have read.

    However, you do have the right to protect property as well as person. Checkout VA code 18.2-280. Just not when the person is running away.
    Who's the victim here? It sure isn't the guy who stole the purse.

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