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Thread: Fort Hood Shooting - who needs a gun onbase?

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    With the shooting in Fort Hood, currently on the news... we'll again hear about the dangers of guns in society. However most bases are actually gun free zones.

    Other than areas of the base that have additional security, for the most part, it is no different wandering around a base than out in town. Except guns are not allowed either CC or OC.

    I've thought about this often over the last year. It is the reason that many of us cannot carry either because we live/work on base, or know we might have to make a stop there, and cannot have a firearm with us when we do so.

    Whengoing about my business during the day(condition yellow), sitting in my office, or even in the Exchange or Food Court, I think about what I would do if something like this happens, and none of it will end with me being able to defend myself. Being inside the gates won't always be a deterrent, and some parts of the base are actually outside the gates.

    Should carrying of firearms be extended to carrying onboard a military base? Should 2A restrictions being lifted in other Federal areas (i.e. Parks) be extended to bases? If not a complete lifting, what about those with permits getting approval from the base Commander to do so?

    Another gun free zone the site of a large killing?

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    Edited to conform with TOS

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    GMZ wrote:
    This may or may not get me on some peoples nerves, and I dont really care, but I carry when I go on base.

    ETA: I can see the VCDL update now: Who needs a gun on an Army base?
    Don't get caught.... Bad news if that happens. Most are gun free zones. Funny how the constitution gives us the RTK&BA yet you can't on federal property, go figure. Such a sad day, I have worked many days on the Hood, it's pretty easy to get just about anything on that base.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    DocKen wrote:
    Should carrying of firearms be extended to carrying onboard a military base? Should 2A restrictions being lifted in other Federal areas (i.e. Parks) be extended to bases? If not a complete lifting, what about those with permits getting approval from the base Commander to do so?
    Doesn't the base commander already have the authority regarding weapons use on the military installation?

    What's this gun free zone stuff? There are plenty of guns at Ft. Hood.

    Can't you take your concerns about military regs through some channels or something?

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    Cracker wrote:
    GMZ wrote:
    This may or may not get me on some peoples nerves, and I dont really care, but I carry when I go on base.

    ETA: I can see the VCDL update now: Who needs a gun on an Army base?
    Don't get caught.... Bad news if that happens. Most are gun free zones. Funny how the constitution gives us the RTK&BA yet you can't on federal property, go figure. Such a sad day, I have worked many days on the Hood, it's pretty easy to get just about anything on that base.
    Edited to conform with TOS

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    DocKen wrote:
    Should carrying of firearms be extended to carrying onboard a military base? Should 2A restrictions being lifted in other Federal areas (i.e. Parks) be extended to bases? If not a complete lifting, what about those with permits getting approval from the base Commander to do so?
    Doesn't the base commander already have the authority regarding weapons use on the military installation?

    What's this gun free zone stuff? There are plenty of guns at Ft. Hood.

    Can't you take your concerns about military regs through some channels or something?
    And the vast majority of them are locked up in the armory.

    On any military installation about the only people who regularly carry firearms are the Military Police. Anyone else signs out a firearm from the armory to go to the range for qualification and then signs the firearm back into the armory after a thorough cleaning.

    Stateside, members of the military don't walk around with guns on thier hips. They don't walk around with M-16s slung across their shoulders. They are mostly unarmed.

    How do I know this? 27 years with the military, both active duty (retired now) and as civil service (double dipping).

    Even the people who live on the base and own weapons cannot just carry them around. Military bases DO NOT recognize concealed carry licenses/permits, and they sure as heII DO NOT allow open carry.

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    Decoligny wrote:
    Military bases DO NOT recognize concealed carry licenses/permits, and they sure as heII DO NOT allow open carry.
    Maybe they should....Then things like this might not happen

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    Cracker wrote:
    GMZ wrote:
    This may or may not get me on some peoples nerves, and I dont really care, but I carry when I go on base.
    Don't get caught.... Bad news if that happens.
    The worst that can happen is that they escort you off and ban you from coming back. It's a violation of rules, not law.

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    KBCraig wrote:
    Cracker wrote:
    GMZ wrote:
    This may or may not get me on some peoples nerves, and I dont really care, but I carry when I go on base.
    Don't get caught.... Bad news if that happens.
    The worst that can happen is that they escort you off and ban you from coming back. It's a violation of rules, not law.
    .

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    KBCraig wrote:
    The worst that can happen is that they escort you off and ban you from coming back. It's a violation of rules, not law.
    I beg to differ. Getting caught can get you locked up. It happened to one of my Sailors. During his prosecution the citation below was referenced.

    Title 18, United States Code

    Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

    (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
    (b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
    (c) A person who kills or attempts to kill any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, and 1113.
    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to -
    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer,
    agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political
    subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or
    supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or
    prosecution of any violation of law;
    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a
    Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such
    possession is authorized by law; or
    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons
    in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful
    purposes.


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    It actually is a policy at most bases, although I'll have to find the actual cite. On NAVSTA Norfolk, as you go through the gate, the sign board will tell you that personal weapons are not allowed onbase.

    I may have to make some phone calls and violate the usual "Don't ask" rule.

    But... what about the Exchange/Medical/Dental that is outside the gates. Civilians can and do go on that part. It is considered onbase even though it is open gates.

    Breaking of this requirement would be a FEDERAL offense, but not sure what level. Heck, even speeding onbase is a Federal ticket.

    Reading through various SITREPS over the last several years, it is not uncommon to find weapons in cars on the base. There have also been crimes such as armed robbery (NAVSTA ATM and laundromat within the last year or so).

    Gunfree zone is that many of these people carrying firearms shouldn't have them and are already disregarding the rules. Those of us who follow the rules now have no self defense.

    When onboard a ship, if I'm on duty, I was trusted to OC a service issued weapon, protect the ship and supervise a watch section that was armed. But I can't carry my own on base without risking punishment. As Active Duty, a Federal charge would be the least of my worries. Maybe a little different when I retire.

    If I ever am in a situation where I'm not armed, but it would have kept myself, loved one or a third party alive, I will make a point of ensuring that little fact is very well publicized.

    At Fort Hood, I'd be curious as to how long it took for that first officer to take down the shooter. He obviously had sufficient time to fire an awful lot of shots and kill/injure a lot of people before that happened. When seconds count.........



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    DocKen,

    It's in the COMNAVREGMIDLANT regulations. I have a hard copy of it at the office. I can't remember the particular subsection off the top of my head.

    Found a link: https://www.cnic.navy.mil/cnrma/Prog...arms/index.htm

    Some one on here posted about being stopped by the Base Police in the Commissary parking lot on NOB. I forgot the final outcome.

    DocV


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    DocV wrote:
    I beg to differ. Getting caught can get you locked up. It happened to one of my Sailors. During his prosecution the citation below was referenced.

    Title 18, United States Code

    Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities

    (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to -
    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer,
    agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political
    subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or
    supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or
    prosecution of any violation of law;
    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a
    Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such
    possession is authorized by law; or
    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons
    in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful
    purposes.

    So there is room for someone to allow this. The question is what level.

    (d) (2) allows carry by a "member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law" Could state OC/CC laws be considered authorized?

    (d) (3) "...hunting or other lawful purposes." I don't do much hunting on the bases I go to....but lawful purposes. Couldn't self defense fit that? Kinda like the church issue. Especially if taken with the preceding paragraph.

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    DocKen,

    If youre active duty you know that you can be double jeapordied (ie DUI) its the same with this. The CO of a base may set policy and give you an article 15 for violating said policy, but there is still the Title 18 that covers federal property to worry about. Whether they will take both routes is subject to debate.

    I feel the same re trust, maybe more so because Im the one issuing the guns

    OT: Going back to sea in Feb, yuck.

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    DocV wrote:
    DocKen,

    It's in the COMNAVREGMIDLANT regulations. I have a hard copy of it at the office. I can't remember the particular subsection off the top of my head.

    Found a link: https://www.cnic.navy.mil/cnrma/Prog...arms/index.htm

    Some one on here posted about being stopped by the Base Police in the Commissary parking lot on NOB. I forgot the final outcome.

    DocV
    Slap on the wrist IIRC...

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    According to this, https://www.cnic.navy.mil/cnrma/Prog...arms/index.htmno. CNRMA installations do not recognize Virginia's carry permit.

    The "other lawful" purposes that were explained to me included things like MWR activities (like the range at Camp Allen).

    Don't get me wrong. I think we ought to be able to carry on base.



    P.S. No more going to sea. My retirement orders just came through...:celebrate


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    Thanks DocV,

    I did a search on weapons, firearms, gun and several other things on the CRMA site and this never came up as a hit.

    I've added it to my bookmarks!

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    The Shooter was a graduate of Virginia Tech! I guess Virginia Tech must offer a major in murder.

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    GMZ wrote:
    DocKen,

    If youre active duty you know that you can be double jeapordied (ie DUI) its the same with this. The CO of a base may set policy and give you an article 15 for violating said policy, but there is still the Title 18 that covers federal property to worry about. Whether they will take both routes is subject to debate.

    I feel the same re trust, maybe more so because Im the one issuing the guns

    OT: Going back to sea in Feb, yuck.
    Ohh... that I do! That's why i don't take the chance. Didn't do 26 years to lose retirement or do it as an E-1!

    Rate,job or traininghave no bearing on ability and trustwith firearms. I've seen civilian and military that have no business being on the trigger side of a gun. They can carry, and you can be sure I'll be keeping a close eye out!

    Years ago in San Dog, an HM I worked with was going to a shooting range, with a bunch of GM's to brush up on their VBSS abilities. They made a stop at the local K-Mart to get some requisite safety gear. My HM and one of the GM's went inside. The other two drove around in the car waiting to pick them up.

    The GM in the back decided that he didn't think the gun was secure enough in it's case, so he "readjusted it" The readjustment resulted in a round going through his leg, and adding some ventilation to the floor boards. They drove to a phone and called 911.

    When the other two came out, they were looking around for their buddies, when a squad car pulled up and asked them if they were by chance looking for a couple of GM's, and then filled them in on the excitement and took them over to the vehicle.

    My HM was severely limited in his association with GM's and their toys! :shock:

    Good luck in February!!!!Glad I'm done... but there is a lot I'll miss too.

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    GMZ wrote:
    ...there is still the Title 18 that covers federal property to worry about.
    USC18s930 covers Federal facilities (buildings), not Federal property in general.

    If one wasn't military, and stayed out of buildings, I don't know what they could be charged with.



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    DrMark wrote:
    GMZ wrote:
    ...there is still the Title 18 that covers federal property to worry about.
    USC18s930 covers Federal facilities (buildings), not Federal property in general.

    If one wasn't military, and stayed out of buildings, I don't know what they could be charged with.

    They could always get you with the Federal governments numerous, "Charge you with whatever we see fit, to protect others." bull crap.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    GMZ wrote:
    Cracker wrote:
    GMZ wrote:
    This may or may not get me on some peoples nerves, and I dont really care, but I carry when I go on base.

    ETA: I can see the VCDL update now: Who needs a gun on an Army base?
    Don't get caught.... Bad news if that happens. Most are gun free zones. Funny how the constitution gives us the RTK&BA yet you can't on federal property, go figure. Such a sad day, I have worked many days on the Hood, it's pretty easy to get just about anything on that base.
    I know. Im aware of the risks of being caught, but the risks outweigh being a victim. I take adequate precautions, thats all Ill say.
    Publically saying/bragging about breaking the law is not the best thing to do and is also a violation of the TOS on this message board.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    A few questions that the news stories haven't answered; if this Major lived on post, did he live in the BOQ or in officer housing? Apparently, he was single, so odds are he was living in the Q or unaccompanied housing. Generally, on a military base, officers can keep registered firearms in their officer housing, although they are not supposed to carry them around. If staying in the Q, they are supposed to check firearms in at the armory, NOT keep them in their room. So the questions would be, where did he live? Were his guns registered? Since he was being investigated, did they intend to confiscate guns AND his computer?

    What I expect to happen is the usual response from today's military; exactly the wrong thing. In short, they will now rescind their policy allowing personnel to keep firearms in on-post housing, and require all personal firearms to be kept off-post or in the armory, thus disarming families on post and even in the new public-private partnership housing areas outside the gates, and leaving those families unguarded. And I expect this policy to spread to the rest of the Army, and the Navy, Air Force, and even the Marines.

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    ed wrote:
    Publically saying/bragging about breaking the law is not the best thing to do and is also a violation of the TOS on this message board.
    Very true, thanks for reminding us.

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    HankT wrote:
    Doesn't the base commander already have the authority regarding weapons use on the military installation?

    What's this gun free zone stuff? There are plenty of guns at Ft. Hood.

    Can't you take your concerns about military regs through some channels or something?
    This was before I started carrying, but I seem to recall at my old guard base CHP holders were allowed to leave their guns locked in the car while on base.

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