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Thread: My dad was 5 minutes too early!

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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    He was in the bank dropping off a check 5 minutes before this guy went in. And yes, my dad was armed at the time.......


    http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/c...ry/943885.html


    University Place deputies were searching for a man who robbed a bank branch near Tacoma Community College on Thursday morning.
    They believe the bandit is the same man who robbed the same branch last month. Each time, the robber wore a Halloween-style hockey mask.
    Thursday’s bank robbery occurred about 10:20 a.m. at Chase Bank, 6916 19th St. W. The bandit walked in wearing the hockey mask, demanded cash from a teller and fled with an undisclosed amount of money.
    Investigators say the same man hit the same Chase branch about 10 a.m. Oct. 15.
    No weapon was seen in either incident.
    The Pierce County Sheriff’s Department had previously released surveillance images of the hockey-mask-wearing robber. Tacoma-Pierce County Crime Stoppers is offering up to $1,000 for information leading to an arrest and charges filed in the robberies. Callers remain anonymous.
    Tipsters can call 253-591-5959.


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    I would never want to be in a bank with a robbery going down, armed or not.

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    If no weapon was seen on either event.. ... O_o... I usually don't just hand over stuff because people demand it.

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    0V3RC10CK3D wrote:
    If no weapon was seen on either event.. ... O_o... I usually don't just hand over stuff because people demand it.
    w0rd.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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    swatspyder wrote:
    He was in the bank dropping off a check 5 minutes before this guy went in. And yes, my dad was armed at the time.......


    http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/c...ry/943885.html


    University Place deputies were searching for a man who robbed a bank branch near Tacoma Community College on Thursday morning.
    They believe the bandit is the same man who robbed the same branch last month. Each time, the robber wore a Halloween-style hockey mask.
    Thursday’s bank robbery occurred about 10:20 a.m. at Chase Bank, 6916 19th St. W. The bandit walked in wearing the hockey mask, demanded cash from a teller and fled with an undisclosed amount of money.
    Investigators say the same man hit the same Chase branch about 10 a.m. Oct. 15.
    No weapon was seen in either incident.
    The Pierce County Sheriff’s Department had previously released surveillance images of the hockey-mask-wearing robber. Tacoma-Pierce County Crime Stoppers is offering up to $1,000 for information leading to an arrest and charges filed in the robberies. Callers remain anonymous.
    Tipsters can call 253-591-5959.
    I just don't know what to say. I'm really sorry that happened.

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    Regular Member trevorthebusdriver's Avatar
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    0V3RC10CK3D wrote:
    If no weapon was seen on either event.. ... O_o... I usually don't just hand over stuff because people demand it.
    It's most banks policy to just give it up, weapon or no. If you chase the robber you get fired.

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    0V3RC10CK3D wrote:
    If no weapon was seen on either event.. ... O_o... I usually don't just hand over stuff because people demand it.
    Yet, I wore no mask, no hoodie, weapon OC'd and I was deemed a threat?

    Sadly, even though there was no weapon seen, anyone want to bet that Washington Cease Fire will try to capitalize?

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    Regular Member Johnny Law's Avatar
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    swatspyder wrote:
    He was in the bank dropping off a check 5 minutes before this guy went in. And yes, my dad was armed at the time.......


    http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/c...ry/943885.html

    So....................................what did he say he "would have done if"?
    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    Johnny Law wrote:
    swatspyder wrote:
    He was in the bank dropping off a check 5 minutes before this guy went in. And yes, my dad was armed at the time.......


    http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/c...ry/943885.html

    So....................................what did he say he "would have done if"?
    Headline would have been "off duty leo foils bank robbery."

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    Banks have insurance, unless the robber is trying to harm me or I think he isgoing to harm me or my loved onesor he is activly doing or about todo gross bodily harm to someone I am not going to get involved. Let the bank and its insurance company sort it out. Starting a gun fight in a bank overa few hundred dollars is not a very good idea.

    Orphan
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    Regular Member Johnny Law's Avatar
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    Orphan wrote:
    Banks have insurance, unless the robber is trying to harm me or I think he isgoing to harm me or my loved onesor he is activly doing or about todo gross bodily harm to someone I am not going to get involved. Let the bank and its insurance company sort it out. Starting a gun fight in a bank overa few hundred dollars is not a very good idea.

    Orphan
    No self respecting Cop would ever be able to just stand by and watch that. It goes against the grain of everything you stand for, and would be intolerable.
    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

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    So, that may be true for LEO - to respond but for the average citizen unless there is some thought or fear of threat.

    Situation: bank robbery, no weapon, semi crowded bank.

    What would a good citizen with aCPL carrying do? What are the options?

    1) do nothing and stand by (gun available but not drawn)

    2) draw and attempt to stop robbery

    What happens to good citizen if anything goes badly for Option 2? At the least some legal civil suit by someone injuried. Hounded by news and police. But every situation is different. Something to think about and run through. Every detail of what happened scrutinized and second guessed.

    What can go badly? Robber starts shooting. Robber or citizen shoots bystanders. Citizen gets shot? Robber gets shot but bullet goes through and hits bystander.

    What are bank employees taught - give them cash, call police after robber leaves. They are insured. They don't want bad press. They don't want customers hurt.

    A few months ago: I don't remember what happened to the bank employee that chased a robber and tackled them a few blocks outside after a robbery but I'm sure he's not working there anymore.



    Change in scenario: robber starts making threats, starts pointing gun at people, starts shooting.... every situation is different.

    It's best to think these general scenarios out now because you only have a split second to make your decision when it hits the fan.


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    Most robberies are much less noticeable than this one. No mask. Maybe a hat, or hoodie. Usually nobody but the robber and teller being robbed know that there's a robbery until it's over.

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    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    Unicorn wrote:
    Most robberies are much less noticeable than this one. No mask. Maybe a hat, or hoodie. Usually nobody but the robber and teller being robbed know that there's a robbery until it's over.
    But... This one, was obvious, and unfortunately for the bank and it's female tellers, they had to endure this one again without the guy being caught...

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    trevorthebusdriver wrote:
    0V3RC10CK3D wrote:
    If no weapon was seen on either event.. ... O_o... I usually don't just hand over stuff because people demand it.
    It's most banks policy to just give it up, weapon or no. If you chase the robber you get fired.
    No need to chase anybody, if he was unarmed he wasn't a threat. I'd politely decline his request.

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    Johnnylaw you are a LEO and there for have additional training, at least I sincerely hope you for your sake you do. As a LEO I would expect you to act differently than I would that is what you do.

    Promise me you will not go out and try to do structural steel fabrication & erection and I will promise you that I wont try to do law enforcement. Deal

    oldkim good well thought out comments.

    I would add one more scenario the bank robbers buddy that is in theback of the line and as you are holding the bank robber at gun pointhis buddy walks up behind you and puts a bullit thru your head.

    Stay safe everyone

    Orphan
    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    phOrphan wrote:
    Johnnylaw you are a LEO and there for have additional training, at least I sincerely hope you for your sake you do. As a LEO I would expect you to act differently than I would that is what you do.

    Promise me you will not go out and try to do structural steel fabrication & erection and I will promise you that I wont try to do law enforcement. Deal

    oldkim good well thought out comments.

    I would add one more scenario the bank robbers buddy that is in theback of the line and as you are holding the bank robber at gun pointhis buddy walks up behind you and puts a bullit thru your head.

    Stay safe everyone

    Orphan
    My only response to that is my belief that everyone who carries SHOULD take responsability to get properly trained. Either on their own or take a course or several courses. Then you gotta practice what you've learned! Each of us who has decided to take a stand against criminals has already levied a certain amount of personal responsability upon ourselves. The next obvious step is to MAKE SURE that we are more of a threat to bad guys than we are to ourselves! Otherwise, WHY ARE YOU PACKIN' A WEAPON???

    Too many times, we sit back and think that it's someone's elses problem. It's not my concern. As long as it doesn't affect me...

    I respectfully submit a quote from Edmund Burke. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

    If you don't think you have the time or money for a course, you have not looked very hard. I can't manage your time for you, but I can offer you training through my company.While I can't justify sending out an instructor for free, for anyone who mentions OCDO and has appropriate ID. I(my company) will work with ANY budget! It's more important tome that proper training is delivered than to readone more thread about folks who desiretraining, but for whatever reason, don't get it. So, there, now you don't have an excuse! Send me a PM if you're interested.

    Respectfully,

    Commodore

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    Comadore76

    I have had quite a bit of training over the years and am taking some more training in December. I am way more proficiant than most LEOs and most of the general public. I practice weekly and have the ammo bill to prove it LOL. It helps that I can shoot from my porch. I will PM youto see what you can offer. BTY thanks for the offer.



    Orphan


    Throw me to the wolves and I will come back leading the pack.

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    Orphan wrote:
    Comadore76

    I have had quite a bit of training over the years and am taking some more training in December. I am way more proficiant than most LEOs and most of the general public. I practice weekly and have the ammo bill to prove it LOL. It helps that I can shoot from my porch. I will PM youto see what you can offer. BTY thanks for the offer.



    Orphan

    First of all, I'm glad to hear that you have the chance to use your porch! If you're too far away for a class (Eastern Wa), I can recommend some of our loosely affiliated "partners" who have excellent reputations with regard to training. USCCA and Front Sight for example. (You may notlike the leadership at Front Sight, Mr. Peterson, you still have to admit that the training is second only to U.S. Training Center! If it isn't equal.)

    I've been accused on the KOMO 4 forum of a shameless business plug, but in my mind, it's a sincere opportunity for folks to get trained. If I don't offer, I have no business complaining about folks not getting trained. That's why I'm asking for a PM, don't want to post business info as that may seem like I'm just going for a plug. Another reason I am willing to work with any budget. It's about the training, not the money.

    Orphan, I look forward to the opportunity!

  20. #20

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    If I was in the bank and a guy came in wearing a hockey mask, I most certainly would pay close attention and if it appeared to me he was robbing the place I certainly would intervene.

    What that intervention would be depends on the unique circumstances of what he did or didn't do. Hard to address all of the variables in this format, but I would at the very least attempt to detain him until the cops arrived, and I would under many circumstances shoot him if the situation warranted or allowed it.

    That said, it would depend of course on whether I had a shot, had a clear background, etc. I am not looking for a gunfight, I carry because I know that I may find myself in such a situation and I am not the sort of person to just stand back and watch.


    So long as people in society are happy not getting involved and unwilling to go in harms way, leaving it to the professional police, we are unlikely to see much improvement let alone a solution to the plague of criminal activity in our society.

    "Not my problem", "They have insurance", "I only carry for personal protection, not to defend others", etc. is very short sighted. Crime is everyone's problem. We all pay to cover the losses from crime. Whether it be through taxes, insurance premiums, loss of personal freedoms or liberty, fear, or losing "territory" to gangs, etc. The only difference is we are paying indirectly instead of directly.

    Criminals rely on society's unwillingness to "get involved" in order to succeed at what they do. Whether that be someone interfering in the act itself or not wishing to be bothered with being a witness or testifying in court (in the unlikely event it gets to that). As far as I am concerned, anyone unwilling to get involved for the good of society shares culpability and responsibility for the problems we face.

    The idea of "professional" police is relatively new to society (google "Robert Peel"). Prior to the early 1800's it was private citizen's who banded together to fight crime and bring criminals to justice. Everyone in the community had a responsibility and interest in keeping order. This is not the same as vigilantism, citizens can take the offensive and yet still work within the rule of law. As the idea of paid police expanded, society readily abdicated it's responsibility for the common defense.

    People enjoy what they consider the "right" of self-defense under clearly described circumstances, but far too many ignore what I consider the responsibility of acting if they are present during such events. The selfishness of "not my problem" isn't much different than the selfishness of a criminal taking what is not theirs as far as I am concerned.

    Police staffing runs about 1-1.5 Patrol Officers per 1000 citizens. Mind you that is not 1-1.5 on duty, but 1-1.5 total. Taking into account three shifts and furlough days, you are looking at about 1 on-duty patrol officer per 2500 citizens or so. Not real good odds as far as being able to really prevent crime, and explains why the police are frequently just a "clean up" crew.

    You want to know why there is never a cop around when you need one? Because there just aren't enough to satisfy the need. Why is the need so high? Because too few citizens are willing to take responsibility for anything other than themselves. Society can't afford the tab for the number of officers that would be needed to really have an impact, and even if they could, that number of cops would create other problems. It is a vicious cycle.

    Criminals by nature are lazy and take advantage of the situation. It is a simple risk vs. reward calculation, and to be honest I am surprised there isn't more crime. We are all taught growing up that the good guys win, the bad guys get caught and punished. It is a myth that fortunately serves to keep things somewhat under control.

    I fear that the next 5-10 years are going to show the myth for what it is and we are going to see crime spiral as more and more folks either learn the truth about the way the system works or are put in difficult circumstances as a result of the economy and realize they have little to risk by going to the other side. Those who are for big government will use this as the excuse for further infringement of our liberties and to take control of more and more aspects of our lives.

    "It takes a village to raise a child" is a true statement, it also takes the village to protect the village. A few appointed folks (the police) can't do it alone and neither can the government. Their jobs are primarily to manage the system, they need the support and assistance of all of us if we actually want the system to work. We are gradually enslaving ourselves to the system out of selfish desire.

    As another poster stated, all that is necessary for evil to prosper is for good men to stand by and do nothing. Ben Franklin's admonishment of sacrificing Liberty for Security comes to mind as well. If citizens aren't willing to to exercise the liberties we enjoy to stand against crime for fear of consequences of that act (security) we have all but surrendered to the criminals.

    I don't wish to be enslaved by criminals anymore than I do the government. I'd rather die standing than live on my knees.

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    911Boss wrote:
    If I was in the bank and a guy came in wearing a hockey mask, I most certainly would pay close attention and if it appeared to me he was robbing the place I certainly would intervene.

    What that intervention would be depends on the unique circumstances of what he did or didn't do. Hard to address all of the variables in this format, but I would at the very least attempt to detain him until the cops arrived, and I would under many circumstances shoot him if the situation warranted or allowed it.

    That said, it would depend of course on whether I had a shot, had a clear background, etc. I am not looking for a gunfight, I carry because I know that I may find myself in such a situation and I am not the sort of person to just stand back and watch.


    So long as people in society are happy not getting involved and unwilling to go in harms way, leaving it to the professional police, we are unlikely to see much improvement let alone a solution to the plague of criminal activity in our society.

    "Not my problem", "They have insurance", "I only carry for personal protection, not to defend others", etc. is very short sighted. Crime is everyone's problem. We all pay to cover the losses from crime. Whether it be through taxes, insurance premiums, loss of personal freedoms or liberty, fear, or losing "territory" to gangs, etc. The only difference is we are paying indirectly instead of directly.

    Criminals rely on society's unwillingness to "get involved" in order to succeed at what they do. Whether that be someone interfering in the act itself or not wishing to be bothered with being a witness or testifying in court (in the unlikely event it gets to that). As far as I am concerned, anyone unwilling to get involved for the good of society shares culpability and responsibility for the problems we face.

    The idea of "professional" police is relatively new to society (google "Robert Peel"). Prior to the early 1800's it was private citizen's who banded together to fight crime and bring criminals to justice. Everyone in the community had a responsibility and interest in keeping order. This is not the same as vigilantism, citizens can take the offensive and yet still work within the rule of law. As the idea of paid police expanded, society readily abdicated it's responsibility for the common defense.

    People enjoy what they consider the "right" of self-defense under clearly described circumstances, but far too many ignore what I consider the responsibility of acting if they are present during such events. The selfishness of "not my problem" isn't much different than the selfishness of a criminal taking what is not theirs as far as I am concerned.

    Police staffing runs about 1-1.5 Patrol Officers per 1000 citizens. Mind you that is not 1-1.5 on duty, but 1-1.5 total. Taking into account three shifts and furlough days, you are looking at about 1 on-duty patrol officer per 2500 citizens or so. Not real good odds as far as being able to really prevent crime, and explains why the police are frequently just a "clean up" crew.

    You want to know why there is never a cop around when you need one? Because there just aren't enough to satisfy the need. Why is the need so high? Because too few citizens are willing to take responsibility for anything other than themselves. Society can't afford the tab for the number of officers that would be needed to really have an impact, and even if they could, that number of cops would create other problems. It is a vicious cycle.

    Criminals by nature are lazy and take advantage of the situation. It is a simple risk vs. reward calculation, and to be honest I am surprised there isn't more crime. We are all taught growing up that the good guys win, the bad guys get caught and punished. It is a myth that fortunately serves to keep things somewhat under control.

    I fear that the next 5-10 years are going to show the myth for what it is and we are going to see crime spiral as more and more folks either learn the truth about the way the system works or are put in difficult circumstances as a result of the economy and realize they have little to risk by going to the other side. Those who are for big government will use this as the excuse for further infringement of our liberties and to take control of more and more aspects of our lives.

    "It takes a village to raise a child" is a true statement, it also takes the village to protect the village. A few appointed folks (the police) can't do it alone and neither can the government. Their jobs are primarily to manage the system, they need the support and assistance of all of us if we actually want the system to work. We are gradually enslaving ourselves to the system out of selfish desire.

    As another poster stated, all that is necessary for evil to prosper is for good men to stand by and do nothing. Ben Franklin's admonishment of sacrificing Liberty for Security comes to mind as well. If citizens aren't willing to to exercise the liberties we enjoy to stand against crime for fear of consequences of that act (security) we have all but surrendered to the criminals.

    I don't wish to be enslaved by criminals anymore than I do the government. I'd rather die standing than live on my knees.
    I basically agree with what you said, but there is another issue to consider. When one exercises his right to defend himself or another against a criminal aggression, one usually finds himself in more trouble with the law than the criminal would have been in for his criminal action.

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    I have only recently started OC'ing. I finally worked up the nerve to go into my bank armed today. I waltzed into the Cordata branch of Chase (WAMU) to very little fanfair.

    I went in filled out my slip and stood in line. When my turn came up, the gentleman called on me, and I started my transaction. He asked me if my car broke down the other day outside the bank, I replied "no". A pregnant lady had her car stall in front of that branch in the pouring down rain and wind on Thursday, so I stopped to help. I asked how he recognized me, he replied that he seen my gun on my side and it had reminded him. I finished my business and left.

    No problem at all.
    I am the person responsible for myself, my wife and my son. I take that VERY seriously.

  23. #23
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    All that is needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

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