Richmond... no OC in the city?

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ProShooter wrote:

Maybe you posed a question and he was embarassed because he didnt know the answer...pride is a terrible enemy sometimes.

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This seems to be the most common cause of these sorts of encounters... OC related or not. It seems that sometimes Officers feel they must have an answer, and they must maintain that their answer is right even when presented evidence to the contrary. I have some familiarity with LEO training (although not as much as those who have actually been through), and it seems this may come from the need to establish authority in a situation. Similar to the old fighter pilot/combat leadership maxim - "Do something, even if its wrong."

While this is essential for dealing with an actual emergency, sometimes it seems to bleed over into regular citizen interactions.

Proshooter, in your experience is there any section of LEO curriculum that tells future officers it is ok to say "I don't know," or "let me find out for you." It seems that officers putting out bad information, even with good intentions, could set up the department for avoidable complaints and even litigation.

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essayons wrote:

Proshooter, in your experience is there any section of LEO curriculum that tells future officers it is ok to say "I don't know," or "let me find out for you." It seems that officers putting out bad information, even with good intentions, could set up the department for avoidable complaints and even litigation.

Click to expand...

Sadly, not really. Its more up to the individual to say that they do or don't know. No one really receives any training like that.

It does put the dept. in a potentially bad light. In the grand scheme of things, most dept's don't seem to be too concerned at this level.

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skidmark wrote:

richarcm wrote:

Just don't OC around federal buildings/property or around VCU.

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As long as I'm on the sidewalk I'm not breaking any law. regulation, ordinance, or rule (does that cover all possibilities?) concerning OC. I've OC'd on the sidewalk in front of the old and new federal courthouse while talking with several of the Marshalls, as well as several other buildings with fed.gov offices inside, and shared a street dining experience on the sidewalk outside the VCU Police HQ with one of their bicycle cops as well as walking around several other parts of both the Monroe Park and MCV campi. Ditto for OC'ing on the sidewalk outside the John Marshall and Stockton Street city courts buildings.

I aint afraid of no public spaces. :lol:

stay safe.

skidmark

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Well yes as long as you are on a sidewalk you are fine. I tend to just walk around it to avoid any mistakes on my part or misunderstandings on the cops part or some pseduo knowledgeable anti. But that's just me. If I can avoid trouble regardless of its merit...I will certainly opt to.

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ProShooter wrote:

essayons wrote:

Proshooter, in your experience is there any section of LEO curriculum that tells future officers it is ok to say "I don't know," or "let me find out for you." It seems that officers putting out bad information, even with good intentions, could set up the department for avoidable complaints and even litigation.

Click to expand...

Sadly, not really. Its more up to the individual to say that they do or don't know. No one really receives any training like that.

It does put the dept. in a potentially bad light. In the grand scheme of things, most dept's don't seem to be too concerned at this level.

Click to expand...

Thats a shame. It also might be why officers err on the side of caution and tell someone that an action is illegal when they are unsure. Harder to get fired/sued if a citizen doesn't do a legal action than if he/she does something illegal based on the erroneous advice of the officer.

Although a creative lawyer may be able to go for Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242 "Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law", a preemptive strike along the lines of the GMU lawsuit. Or since this is a criminal violation and the FBI's jurisdiction could it be pursued that way? Kinda harsh, but it would provide a powerful incentive for LEOs to stop knowingly giving bad advice.

Any of you legal eagles have thoughts on this?

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richarcm wrote:

...pseduo knowledgeable anti.

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Theres a contradiction if I ever saw one

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Well now, talk about misinformation. The only RULE about firearms is actually
NOT LAW. It is in the VCU student CODE OF CONDUCT. The only lawsuits regarding
carry at VCU were whether or not a state funded school could legally make it AGAINST the HONOR CODE to carry. The school won the right to make this part of their CODE OF CONDUCT for students.

IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO CARRY ON VCU CAMPUS AND BUILDINGS IN PUBLIC ACCESS
AREAS
VCU POLICE HAS NO AUTHORITY TO CHARGE YOU WITH TRESPASSING
FOR CARRYING ON STATE PROPERTY (ALL VCU BUILDINGS/LAND)
LEGALLY THEY CAN'T EVEN ASK YOU TO LEAVE B/C OC DOES NOT CONSTITUTE
JUST CAUSE FOR SUSPICION IN VA COURTS.
IF YOU ARE A STUDENT, YOU CAN BE PUNISHED, UP TO EXPULSION, BY THE SCHOOL AUTHORITIES. YOU CANNOT, HOWEVER, BE CHARGED WITH A CRIME.

Regardless, OC'ing into a building would be a colossal FlusterCuck.

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http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+reg+8VAC90-10-50

To that end, no person, either singly or in concert with others, shall willfully:

4. Have in his possession any firearm, other weapon, or explosive, regardless of whether a license to possess the same has been issued, without the written authorization of the president of the university. This restriction does not apply to persons whose duties lawfully require the possession of firearms or other weapons.

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http://www.vaag.com/OPINIONS/2006opns/05-078.pdf

""invalidating this prohibition, is a recent Attorney General opinion. (.pdf)

This opinion states:
Further reading of the opinion seems to indicate that universities CAN deny its students and faculty the Right to Carry, but it may not deny this right to non-student/faculty. Even as it does apply to students/faculty, it may not apply when someone is not on the property in the capacity of a student or employee. This creates yet another enforcement headache.""


The code does READ like it is meant for everyone, and that is why it is a FlusterCuck to attempt OC carry at VCU.

and remember, although
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+reg+8VAC90-10-50 p.4
is in 'state law', it is only because the authority for the ruling body to write
rules for the school is granted by VA law. These are rules, not laws in of themselves.

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Except in VCUs case it is written into state code, I'm not sure how the VAC process works but it does carry more weight than the college rulebook. I think you ignore the rule at your peril though it probably could lead to a trespassing charge.

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longwatch wrote:

Except in VCUs case it is written into state code, I'm not sure how the VAC process works but it does carry more weight than the college rulebook. I think you ignore the rule at your peril though it probably could lead to a trespassing charge.

Click to expand...

The State Code for VCU is listed under 'Administrative Code'. Violating Administrative code is not a crime, period. Not only that it ONLY applies to Students and Faculty, and then possible ONLY when they are on VCU property in their function as a student / faculty. If you are not a student / faculty member you are not under the Administrative codes purview AT ALL. Because most VCU property is public property / public access you can legally ignore any posted signs because they don't have the authority to be binding to anyone but a student/staff and then only in an administrative way not in a legal way.

Your confusion is:
The State of VA is allowed to write laws forbidding firearms to certain locations, yes.
The Administrative code is not itself made of 'laws,' nor does the body that writes the administrative code have the authority to codify a law.

The only way you could get fined with trespassing is if you were in an area only accessable to student/staff and then refused to leave that area.

So for instance, if you were at a VCU basketball game, OCing, and you were a student, and the VCU police approached you, technically they COULD report you for administrative action, but since your in a public access area they couldn't legally even ask you to leave.
Technically you you wouldn't even have to show a school I.D. so they wouldn't even know you were a student. Because its public access they have no criminal interest reason to ask if you are a student.

Now, attempting to muddle through all this law with some stupid a$$ vcu cop would most likely be a failure and result in you being forcably arrested. If you had someone recording it you could probably make money sueing them, but hey, one of them might get ansy and accidentally shoot you.

I agree with some of the other posters, what I did when I attended VCU was to CC and DONT PRINT. problem solved for you individually.

The larger problem of making this legally legable will most likely occur with the CHICAGO cases conclusion, which most people think will end with the 2nd Amendment being INCORPORATED against the states. That will be like a Federal preemption law, sort of. It would apply to the administrative code as well.

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To further complicate the matter of non-student/faculty in a VCU building... I am a manager at the commons and we are supposed to kick people out (or call VCUPD to do so) without a valid VCU ID. This brings up the question of wether or not non-VCU affiliated persons are allowed on VCU property in the first place... nevermind if they are carrying or not.

My general feeling is that if someone is OC'ing, they typically are a good law abiding citizen. A criminal/thug/hoodlem is not going to OC and if someone looks suspect in the building, i would call the cops regardless if they are carrying or not just because that is what we are told to do.

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How does this sound? Anyone think of anything to add?

Chief Edwards,

It was brought to my attention a few days ago in conversation with one of your officers(canidentify at your request)that Firearm Carry Policy may need to be reviewed in their basic training. While speaking with this officer, I asked how often your department deals with carriers of firearms, open or concealed. He proceeded to tell me that your departmentdoes not frequently encounter"carriers" (hardly at all) and further more that it is ILLEGAL to carry a firearm in the city of Richmond. I questioned said officer because VA has a state "preemptive" law stating that individual municipalities may notadopt or enforce any other gun laws per the following state statute:

[align=left]§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to[/align]
[align=left]authorities and local governmental agencies.[/align]
[align=left]A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or[/align]
[align=left]motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality[/align]
[align=left]shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession,[/align]
[align=left]transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of[/align]
[align=left]firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof[/align]
[align=left]other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of[/align]
[align=left]this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition,[/align]
[align=left]or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to[/align]
provide express authorization.

Also, while I am aware that carrying on campus will likely result in administrative action against me by the university, it is by no means "illegal" as insisted by this officer.

I do not want to assume that all VCU PD officers are ignorant of Virginia Gun Laws and instead willhope that this is an isolated incident. Iobviously do not have a problem with anofficer not knowing every law on the books (who possibly could) buttheyneed to state that instead of spreading misinformation. With this in mind, let me recommend a refresher course for your officers on VA gun law or at least a concession from them that they are not sure instead of spreadingsuch misinformation. It is[most] every Virginia residentsright to open carry any firearm in public area, and whether meaningfully or not, this incorrect information may unintentionally strip a good, law abiding citizen of their rights. Lastly, in protection of your department, such an officer making an unlawful arrest because of ignorance of the lawcould cause much backlash for your department and even warrant a lawsuit which could have easilybeen avoided.



v/r

Insert my name

Concerned VCU Student and Employee

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driveramsII wrote:

How does this sound? Anyone think of anything to add?

Chief Edwards,

It was brought to my attention a few days ago in conversation with one of your officers(canidentify at your request)that Firearm Carry Policy may need to be reviewed in their basic training. While speaking with this officer, I asked how often your department deals with carriers of firearms, open or concealed. He proceeded to tell me that your departmentdoes not frequently encounter"carriers" (hardly at all) and further more that it is ILLEGAL to carry a firearm in the city of Richmond. I questioned said officer because VA has a state "preemptive" law stating that individual municipalities may notadopt or enforce any other gun laws per the following state statute:


[align=left]§ 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to[/align]

[align=left]authorities and local governmental agencies.[/align]

[align=left]A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or[/align]

[align=left]motion, as permitted by § 15.2-1425, and no agent of such locality[/align]

[align=left]shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession,[/align]

[align=left]transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of[/align]

[align=left]firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof[/align]

[align=left]other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of[/align]

[align=left]this section, a statute that does not refer to firearms, ammunition,[/align]

[align=left]or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to[/align]
provide express authorization.

Also, while I am aware that carrying on campus will likely result in administrative action against me by the university, it is by no means "illegal" as insisted by this officer.

I do not want to assume that all VCU PD officers are ignorant of Virginia Gun Laws and instead willhope that this is an isolated incident. Iobviously do not have a problem with anofficer not knowing every law on the books (who possibly could) buttheyneed to state that instead of spreading misinformation. With this in mind, let me recommend a refresher course for your officers on VA gun law or at least a concession from them that they are not sure instead of spreadingsuch misinformation. It is[most] every Virginia residentsright to open carry any firearm in public area, and whether meaningfully or not, this incorrect information may unintentionally strip a good, law abiding citizen of their rights. Lastly, in protection of your department, such an officer making an unlawful arrest because of ignorance of the lawcould cause much backlash for your department and even warrant a lawsuit which could have easilybeen avoided.



v/r

Insert my name

Concerned VCU Student and Employee

Click to expand...

I would absolutely not send that letter as written. IMHO, you won't get far. It needs to be refined a bit.

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driveramsII wrote:

How does this sound? Anyone think of anything to add?

Chief Edwards,

It was brought to my attention ...

Click to expand...

I do not want to assume that all VCU PD officers are ignorant of Virginia Gun Laws and instead willhope that this is an isolated incident. Iobviously do not have a problem with anofficer not knowing every law on the books (who possibly could) buttheyneed to state that instead of spreading misinformation. With this in mind, let me recommend a refresher course for your officers on VA gun law or at least a concession from them that they are not sure instead of spreadingsuch misinformation. It is[most] every Virginia residentsright to open carry any firearm in public area, and whether meaningfully or not, this incorrect information may unintentionally strip a good, law abiding citizen of their rights. Lastly, in protection of your department, such an officer making an unlawful arrest because of ignorance of the lawcould cause much backlash for your department and even warrant a lawsuit which could have easilybeen avoided.



v/r

Insert my name

Concerned VCU Student and Employee

Click to expand...

FWIW: I think it sounds pretty good. The only change I'd recommend is changing the words ignorant and ignorance (in red in the quote above) to something else. Many people find the words insulting and/or degrading and could put the recipient of your letter on the defensive. Some other options might be uninformed, mistaken regarding,misinformed, in the dark, unaquainted, unapprised.

Stan

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Its not supposed to get me anywhere really, just point out that the VCU police force (or at least this particular officer) need some training/informing. The reason I didn't include the officers identification is to try not to sound like i'm cop bashing.

What would you say if it is so bad?

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driveramsII wrote:

Its not supposed to get me anywhere really, just point out that the VCU police force (or at least this particular officer) need some training/informing. The reason I didn't include the officers identification is to try not to sound like i'm cop bashing.

What would you say if it is so bad?

Click to expand...

The letter as written is only going to get you a "we'll look into it" response, while hemumbles something under his breath about the tone of your letter.

You need to write it in a more generic manner and simply pose a question, without being accusatory....

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raftgyde wrote:

driveramsII wrote:

I do not want to assume that all VCU PD officers are ignorant of Virginia Gun Laws and instead willhope that this is an isolated incident.

Click to expand...

FWIW: I think it sounds pretty good. The only change I'd recommend is changing the words ignorant and ignorance (in red in the quote above) to something else. Many people find the words insulting and/or degrading and could put the recipient of your letter on the defensive.

Click to expand...

That's a good point Stan. Ken Staunton for instance, calls anyone that disagrees with him, "Ignorant". I find that offensive since any fool in this part of Virginia, knows it's Iggernent !

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peter nap wrote:

That's a good point Stan. Ken Staunton for instance, calls anyone that disagrees with him, "Ignorant". I find that offensive since any fool in this part of Virginia, knows it's Iggernent !

Click to expand...

I always thought that it was "ignant"...

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ProShooter wrote:

driveramsII wrote:

Its not supposed to get me anywhere really, just point out that the VCU police force (or at least this particular officer) need some training/informing. The reason I didn't include the officers identification is to try not to sound like i'm cop bashing.

What would you say if it is so bad?

Click to expand...

The letter as written is only going to get you a "we'll look into it" response, while hemumbles something under his breath about the tone of your letter.

You need to write it in a more generic manner and simply pose a question, without being accusatory....

Click to expand...

I'll see what I can come up with although I dont know what question I should be asking. I don't really care to hear his opinion on the gun law as I know the officer was wrong in his interpretation. All I was really looking for is a "bug in his ear" kinda thing. Something that when they do training it might come to his mind as something that should be mentioned. I tried to keep it from sounding too accusatory but agree I might should reword some.

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raftgyde wrote:

driveramsII wrote:

How does this sound? Anyone think of anything to add?

Chief Edwards,

It was brought to my attention ...

Click to expand...

I do not want to assume that all VCU PD officers are ignorant of Virginia Gun Laws and instead willhope that this is an isolated incident. Iobviously do not have a problem with anofficer not knowing every law on the books (who possibly could?) buttheyneed to state that instead of spreading misinformation. With this in mind, let me recommend a refresher course for your officers on VA gun law or at least a concession from them that they are not sure instead of spreadingsuch misinformation. It is[most] every Virginia residentsright to open carry any firearm in public area, and whether meaningfully or not, this incorrect information may unintentionally strip a good, law abiding citizen of their rights. Lastly, in protection of your department, such an officer making an unlawful arrest because of ignorance of the lawcould cause much backlash for your department and even warrant a lawsuit which could have easilybeen avoided.



v/r

Insert my name

Concerned VCU Student and Employee

Click to expand...

FWIW: I think it sounds pretty good. The only change I'd recommend is changing the words ignorant and ignorance (in red in the quote above) to something else. Many people find the words insulting and/or degrading and could put the recipient of your letter on the defensive. Some other options might be uninformed, mistaken regarding,misinformed, in the dark, unaquainted, unapprised.

Stan

Click to expand...

1. Lower case letters in gun laws.

2. ?

3. It is lawful for every non-prohibited person to openly carry a handgun in Va, not just residents.

4. Misinformation doesn't strip rights. Blind trust in an LEO's assertions may cause someone to not exercise them, however.