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Thread: Calling All Military!

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    Please see the attached letter that I just sent to thehead of theAir ForceSergeants Association. I suggest that we all lobby through our respective services at this time when military installation safety is at the forefront of discussion. I am not asking for critique, simply some help with getting the message across that rapes and murders do happen on base, and many bases are located in very high crime areas. We need help to avoid becoming a victim.

    Mr. McCauslin,



    I am writing on behalf of my family as well as my own well being. Recent and historic incidents have displayed that although many feel safe on a military installation this is not always a reality. Many of our children attend the CDC, sporting events, hospitals etc. on base. Police response is just that a response to an already occurring incident. Heinous acts can happen in seconds and take minutes for the arrival of security forces. The military is trusted to open and concealed carry in the AOR under certain guidance, and I would like this to be true at our home stations. The second amendment should apply to everyone and not be limited to the gates of a military installation. No matter in what capacity I would hope that you can see the benefit to having those trusted to carry weapons in the AOR, to be trusted to carry a means of self defense on a military installation and to help ensure we have a way if we so choose to defend ourselves on the way home from work.



    You know the base procedures and unless a RAM is conducted any individual who wanted to bring a weapon onto a military installation could do so. The members of the military deserve as much, and should be granted the right to not only exercise the freedoms protected by the second amendment but entrusted to protect our family, DOD workers, business partners, and guests alike. Could you please state the Air Force Sergeants Association stance on military members being entrusted to defend themselves.



    I am really seeking an Air Force wide policy which allows for at the very least a parallel to the existing state laws at each base location. Perhaps the tragedy at Fairchild on 20 June 1994 that left four dead ten people in critical condition, would have been averted or minimized if we allowed means to self defense. I think the recent events at Fort Hood reiterate that military installations are not immune from violent crime. You are probably aware of the location of many Air Force installations in their relation to high crime areas. Please help me help myself, by supporting policy to establish weapon rights for military members on military installations. Thank you for your time and consideration.





    V/R

    (UCMJ forbids me posting my name here)

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    Very good letter.

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    I talked to a JAG (military lawyer) today about this. He is actually a former NC LEO. I asked him why we were not allowed to carry and he said that it is a base commander discretion and where he was previously stationed you could at least keep a weapon in your house if it were on base.

    We got to talking a bit and he feels the same way I do. When I am out here I would really feel alot better about my wife having a means to defend herself and the kids. He said his wife was really warming up to the idea of carrying.

    I asked him about open carry and he said he supports it as a deterrent.

    I gave him a link to OCDO and he said he would really check it out.

    Good stuff!

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    Regular Member hp-hobo's Avatar
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    Your friend is wrong. It's shows how little JAGs actually understand military law.

    All US military bases in the United States are federal installations. Because of that, carry whether open or concealed, is unlawful with the exception of military members who carry while on duty, civilian law enforcement, security contractors, etc. Joe GI, a family member or guest can not.

    Individuals living on base in the barracks/dormitories/billets/etc must keep their firearms at the base armory or some other lawful location such as a friend's house. People in base housing only can keep a firearm in their house at the base commander's discretion. People off base of course follow local regulations, but it's my understanding some commanders at various bases have tried to infringe upon their 2A rights.

    If you even take a firearm on base to go to the range (assuming they have one), you have to claim the gun at the gate, it has to be unloaded and cased, and the ammunition has to be stored separately. And you can make no stops except the range and then right off base.

    I agree wholeheartedly with the jist of your letter. Just don't hold your breath for the AFSA to get off their ass and get on your side. They won't. It pisses me off that I spent most of my 23 years in the Air Force with a top secret clearance, worked nuke loaded aircraft and did occasional armed courier duty in conjuction with TDY's and deployments, but now I can't legally CC when I take my weekly tripo to the commisary.

    There is something very wrong with the system.

    P.S. Gaurd and Reserve bases while notusually federal property follow the same regulations.
    "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun."

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    Well they tells us we are always on duty. So... that should justify it or I get paid overtime!

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Your friend is wrong. It's shows how little JAGs actually understand military law.

    All US military bases in the United States are federal installations. Because of that, carry whether open or concealed, is unlawful with the exception of military members who carry while on duty, civilian law enforcement, security contractors, etc. Joe GI, a family member or guest can not.
    Not true. While it is true that all military installations are federal installations, it is up to the base commander at each location how s/he controls firearms on that installation.

    Just got called away. Will follow up later with citations. They'll take a while to hunt down again.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    hp-hobo wrote:
    Your friend is wrong. It's shows how little JAGs actually understand military law.
    If it's 'law' then there ought'a be a citation IAW OCDO Rule 7).

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    hp-hobo wrote:
    Your friend is wrong. It's shows how little JAGs actually understand military law.

    All US military bases in the United States are federal installations. Because of that, carry whether open or concealed, is unlawful with the exception of military members who carry while on duty, civilian law enforcement, security contractors, etc. Joe GI, a family member or guest can not.
    Penalty flag, failure to cite to authority, and misstatement of the law.

    There is no general law banning carry on "federal installations". 18 USC 930 bans firearms in "federal facilities", which are specifically defined as buildings where federal employees work.

    When my oldest went through OSUT at Fort Knox in 2005, I looked up their local regulations, and they specifically allowed licensed concealed carry, on post, but not in buildings.

    The JAG lawyer was exactly correct: each installation commander sets his own policies.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    As a life member of AFSA for more than 30 years now, I can tell you you'll get a lot more traction if you can get your chapter Legislative Affairs Committee to submit it.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    USMC Camp Pendleton CA

    Transportation Procedures:

    Persons over the age of 18 years who reside or are temporarily aboard the military reservation may transport and carry any non-prohibited weapons, whether capable of being concealed upon the person or not, provided that the following applies to the weapon:

    a. The weapon is within a motor vehicle, and it is unloaded and locked in the vehicle’s trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.

    b. The weapon is carried by the person directly to and from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose (i.e., collectors organization meeting, hunter safety class, recognized sporting event involving that weapon, gun shop, gun show, or swap meet, target range, etc.) and while carrying the weapon, the weapon is unloaded and contained within a locked container.

    c. As used in this directive, “locked container” is defined as a secure container that is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device. The term “locked container” does not include the utility or glove compartment.

    d. A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this directive when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case which holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in or attached to in any manner to the firearm, including but not limited to, in the firing chamber or magazine, clip, or speed loader. Refusal to allow law enforcement or security personnel to inspect a firearm pursuant to the provisions of this paragraph constitutes probable cause for apprehension/detention for violation of this requirement.

    e. Weapons will not be routinely carried or stored in vehicles. In addition, razors without a guarded blade or common tools such as hatchets, axes, screwdrivers, hammers, and similar items shall be carried locked in the vehicle’s trunk or in the rear most cargo area, furthest from the driver when the vehicle has no trunk.


    Department of Army prohibition on Carry of firearms....

    http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynam.../r190%5F14.pdf


    Navy Regulation.....

    1159. Possession of Weapons Personnel may not have any weapons or explosives in their possession without proper authority



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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    hp-hobo wrote:
    Your friend is wrong. It's shows how little JAGs actually understand military law.

    All US military bases in the United States are federal installations. Because of that, carry whether open or concealed, is unlawful with the exception of military members who carry while on duty, civilian law enforcement, security contractors, etc. Joe GI, a family member or guest can not.

    Individuals living on base in the barracks/dormitories/billets/etc must keep their firearms at the base armory or some other lawful location such as a friend's house. People in base housing only can keep a firearm in their house at the base commander's discretion. People off base of course follow local regulations, but it's my understanding some commanders at various bases have tried to infringe upon their 2A rights.

    If you even take a firearm on base to go to the range (assuming they have one), you have to claim the gun at the gate, it has to be unloaded and cased, and the ammunition has to be stored separately. And you can make no stops except the range and then right off base.

    I agree wholeheartedly with the jist of your letter. Just don't hold your breath for the AFSA to get off their ass and get on your side. They won't. It pisses me off that I spent most of my 23 years in the Air Force with a top secret clearance, worked nuke loaded aircraft and did occasional armed courier duty in conjuction with TDY's and deployments, but now I can't legally CC when I take my weekly tripo to the commisary.

    There is something very wrong with the system.

    P.S. Gaurd and Reserve bases while notusually federal property follow the same regulations.
    Please cite the pertinant US Code that makes the entire Military Base off limits for gun.

    I am currently employed by the Air Force at Edwards Air Force Base, and I am a retiredAir Force Technical Sergeant (20 years +).

    Currently any Air Force Active Duty Member may keepas many firearms in his/her military family housing on base as they own. I just in-processed a new Captain who will be keeping a rifle and a handgun in his on-base house.

    If they live in the dorm, they have to keep it in the armory.

    Any Active Duty Member, Dependant, Guest, Retired Military, Retired Military Dependant, or Guest, may bring a firearm onto the base to use at the Rod and Gun Club. The firearm must be unloaded and secured in a locked container of locked in the trunk of the vehicle. The ammuntion must be locked up seperately from the firearm.

    These rules were established by the Base Commander. Every single newly assigned person gets briefed on the rules about firearms when they in-process to the squadron.




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    Regular Member hp-hobo's Avatar
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    Decoligny wrote:
    Please cite the pertinant US Code that makes the entire Military Base off limits for gun.

    I am currently employed by the Air Force at Edwards Air Force Base, and I am a retiredAir Force Technical Sergeant (20 years +).

    Currently any Air Force Active Duty Member may keepas many firearms in his/her military family housing on base as they own. I just in-processed a new Captain who will be keeping a rifle and a handgun in his on-base house.

    If they live in the dorm, they have to keep it in the armory.

    Any Active Duty Member, Dependant, Guest, Retired Military, Retired Military Dependant, or Guest, may bring a firearm onto the base to use at the Rod and Gun Club. The firearm must be unloaded and secured in a locked container of locked in the trunk of the vehicle. The ammuntion must be locked up seperately from the firearm.

    These rules were established by the Base Commander. Every single newly assigned person gets briefed on the rules about firearms when they in-process to the squadron.
    Good grief! Did you bother to read my post or did you just start typing full speed ahead with your head firmly inserted in your anus? If you read your post, which not surpisingly didn't include any citation as support (pot, kettle, black), you just confirmed everything I stated earlier. Thank you.

    Cased, locked and separated while in transit - Check

    Storage at armory for barracks personnel - Check

    In home storage for base housing personnel - Check

    The only thing you didn't address is carry, which you know as well as I do that you can't do, with the exceptions that I listed previously.

    So tell me again. What exactly is your point? No wonder you retired as only a TSgt. :quirky

    "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun."

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    hp-hobo wrote:
    Good grief! Did you bother to read my post or did you just start typing full speed ahead with your head firmly inserted in your anus? If you read your post, which not surpisingly didn't include any citation as support (pot, kettle, black), you just confirmed everything I stated earlier. Thank you.

    Cased, locked and separated while in transit - Check

    Storage at armory for barracks personnel - Check

    In home storage for base housing personnel - Check

    The only thing you didn't address is carry, which you know as well as I do that you can't do, with the exceptions that I listed previously.

    So tell me again. What exactly is your point? No wonder you retired as only a TSgt. :quirky
    Ad hominem attack, going over the line.

    And may I quote from one regulations, Ft Belvoir regulation 190-2, that proves you "not 100% factual" as well:

    http://www.nec.belvoir.army.mil/pubs.../Reg/190-2.pdf, para 7b:
    b. Officers and enlisted personnel occupying quarters on post may store registered firearms in their quarters provided the weapon is secured and unloaded and that ammunition is secured in a separate location. Officers and non-commissioned officers occupying bachelor officers quarters (BOQ) and bachelor enlisted quarters (BEQ) facilities are allowed to store registered firearms within their assigned areas provided the registered firearm is independently secured in a locked container or device controlled by a separate key other than that which opens the exterior door to the living quarters. Firearms not stored in the preceding manner will be placed in the organizational arms room.
    Not all bases/posts follow exactly the same regulations, and it would behoove all who live on, work on, or transit an installation to find the regulations for THAT installation.

    But thanks for your certainty.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    hp-hobo wrote:
    No wonder you retired as only a TSgt. :quirky
    What rank did you attain before retirement?

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    Depending upon your MOS/Rate... Advancement was (at one time... maybe still) severely restricted due to 'quota' in that field. It was not uncommon in the Navy for 90% of the aircraft maint. work center (shop) supervisory positionsashore and afloatto be headed by an E-6 (Petty Officer First Class) as the 'LPO' (Leading Petty Officer) instead of a Chief. You did the same job with the same responsibilitiesup to that of an E-9, and often as not a Warrant Officer or above. It's called 'positional authority'. This problem was as severe, if not moreso(and common) in the Air Force as it was the Navyfor a long time.

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    hp-hobo wrote:
    Decoligny wrote:
    Please cite the pertinant US Code that makes the entire Military Base off limits for gun.

    I am currently employed by the Air Force at Edwards Air Force Base, and I am a retiredAir Force Technical Sergeant (20 years +).

    Currently any Air Force Active Duty Member may keepas many firearms in his/her military family housing on base as they own. I just in-processed a new Captain who will be keeping a rifle and a handgun in his on-base house.

    If they live in the dorm, they have to keep it in the armory.

    Any Active Duty Member, Dependant, Guest, Retired Military, Retired Military Dependant, or Guest, may bring a firearm onto the base to use at the Rod and Gun Club. The firearm must be unloaded and secured in a locked container of locked in the trunk of the vehicle. The ammuntion must be locked up seperately from the firearm.

    These rules were established by the Base Commander. Every single newly assigned person gets briefed on the rules about firearms when they in-process to the squadron.
    Good grief! Did you bother to read my post or did you just start typing full speed ahead with your head firmly inserted in your anus? If you read your post, which not surpisingly didn't include any citation as support (pot, kettle, black), you just confirmed everything I stated earlier. Thank you.

    Cased, locked and separated while in transit - Check

    Storage at armory for barracks personnel - Check

    In home storage for base housing personnel - Check

    The only thing you didn't address is carry, which you know as well as I do that you can't do, with the exceptions that I listed previously.

    So tell me again. What exactly is your point? No wonder you retired as only a TSgt. :quirky
    After I asked for a cite, show me exactly where I disagreed with you on any point.

    I restated what you said in what I though was an easier to understand statement, but at least I wasn't a (Democratic Mascot)hole about it.

    And just how long did you serve? Make it past basic? Get kicked out? Never served at all? Maybe couldn't qualify?

    Happy Veterans Day from one who has served 27 years so far.



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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Depending upon your MOS/Rate... Advancement was (at one time... maybe still) severely restricted due to 'quota' in that field. It was not uncommon in the Navy for 90% of the aircraft maint. work center (shop) supervisory positionsashore and afloatto be headed by an E-6 (Petty Officer First Class) as the 'LPO' (Leading Petty Officer) instead of a Chief. You did the same job with the same responsibilitiesup to that of an E-9, and often as not a Warrant Officer or above. It's called 'positional authority'. This problem was as severe, if not moreso (and common) in the Air Force as it was the Navyfor a long time.
    Still that way.

    My job was Cost Analysis. Only 500 people in the career field including officers. When they only promote 5% and you are competing in a pool of 30 people who are all equally intelligent, for a particular rank, only 1 person is getting the stripe. There were actually a couple of years where even if I had scored a perfect 100% on both the Specialty Knowledge Test (SKT) and the Professional Fitness Exam (PFE) I would have still needed another 20 points to make rank. This was due to other factors like Time in Grade points, Time in Service points, points for medals, etc.

    Coming into the Air Force I was selected for the career field because I scored in the 99 percentile (highest score possible) on all four sections of the ASVAB. I was actually the last Airman Basic allowed in the career field as after my class graduated they only allowed cross trainees into the field in the rank of SSgt.

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    KBCraig wrote:
    hp-hobo wrote:
    Your friend is wrong. It's shows how little JAGs actually understand military law.

    All US military bases in the United States are federal installations. Because of that, carry whether open or concealed, is unlawful with the exception of military members who carry while on duty, civilian law enforcement, security contractors, etc. Joe GI, a family member or guest can not.
    Penalty flag, failure to cite to authority, and misstatement of the law.

    There is no general law banning carry on "federal installations". 18 USC 930 bans firearms in "federal facilities", which are specifically defined as buildings where federal employees work.

    When my oldest went through OSUT at Fort Knox in 2005, I looked up their local regulations, and they specifically allowed licensed concealed carry, on post, but not in buildings.

    The JAG lawyer was exactly correct: each installation commander sets his own policies.
    I thought this was common knowledge.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

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    Zack,

    I grew up by Warren. I told my wife the other day we needed to head up there and hit up the Hot Dog Shop then shoot over and grab some wings. I miss the food in that area. Also I miss heckling at the Scrappers games.

    I graduated Lakeview in 99. Small world.

    V/R



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    ...I'll have to come back to this thread and check out the cited facts vs the broad uncited generalizations.





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    DrMark wrote:
    ...I'll have to come back to this thread and check out the cited facts vs the broad uncited generalizations.



    Hope the scroll wheel on your mouse is well-lubricated.

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    I guess this person has it all wrong also. :?

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-base-gun-ban/

    Time after time, public murder sprees occur in "gun-free zones" - public places where citizens are not legally able to carry guns. The list is long, including massacres at Virginia Tech and Columbine High School along with many less deadly attacks. Last week's slaughter at Fort Hood Army base in Texas was no different - except that one man bears responsibility for the ugly reality that the men and women charged with defending America were deliberately left defenseless when a terrorist opened fire.

    Among President Clinton's first acts upon taking office in 1993 was to disarm U.S. soldiers on military bases. In March 1993, the Army imposed regulations forbidding military personnel from carrying their personal firearms and making it almost impossible for commanders to issue firearms to soldiers in the U.S. for personal protection. For the most part, only military police regularly carry firearms on base, and their presence is stretched thin by high demand for MPs in war zones.

    Because of Mr. Clinton, terrorists would face more return fire if they attacked a Texas Wal-Mart than the gunman faced at Fort Hood, home of the heavily armed and feared 1st Cavalry Division. That's why a civilian policewoman from off base was the one whose marksmanship ended Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan's rampage.

    Everyone wants to keep people safe - and no one denies Mr. Clinton's good intentions. The problem is that law-abiding good citizens, not criminals, are the ones who obey those laws. Bans end up disarming potential victims and not criminals. Rather than making places safe for victims, we unintentionally make them safe for the criminal - or in this case, the terrorist.

    The wife of one of the soldiers shot at Fort Hood understands all too well. In an interview on CNN Monday night, Anchor John Roberts asked Mandy Foster how she felt about her husband's upcoming deployment to Afghanistan. Ms. Foster responded: "At least he's safe there and he can fire back, right?"

    It is hard to believe that we don't trust soldiers with guns on an Army base when we trust these very same men in Iraq and Afghanistan. Mr. Clinton's deadly rules even disarmed officers, the most trusted members of the military charged with leading enlisted soldiers in combat. Six of the dead and wounded had commissions.

    Most people understand that guns deter criminals. Research also shows that the presence of more guns limits the damage mass murderers can unleash. A major factor in determining how many people are harmed by these killers is the time that elapses between the launch of an attack and when someone - soldier, civilian or law enforcement - arrives on the scene with a gun to end the attack. All the public shootings in the United States in which more than three people have been killed have occurred in places where concealed handguns have been banned.

    Thirteen dead bodies in a Texas morgue are the ultimate fruit of gun-control illogic - in which guns are so feared that government regulation even tries to keep them out of the hands of trained soldiers. With the stroke of a pen, President Obama can end Mr. Clinton's folly and allow U.S. soldiers to protect themselves. Because we clearly cannot protect our soldiers from harm, the least we owe them is the right to protect themselves.
    "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun."

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    I love knee-jerk politics!

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    Alright,

    First of all, yes, if we live on base in anything but E1-4 dorms we can keep firearms at home. The point of this thread, if I read it correctly, was to bring up the fact that we can't OC/CC while on base, in uniform or out. Personally, I think that we should be authorized to, as long as we follow all applicable safety regulations (not carrying while drinking, for example). But then again, what do I know. I'm just an enlisted guy.

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    hightecrebel wrote:
    Alright,

    First of all, yes, if we live on base in anything but E1-4 dorms we can keep firearms at home. The point of this thread, if I read it correctly, was to bring up the fact that we can't OC/CC while on base, in uniform or out. Personally, I think that we should be authorized to, as long as we follow all applicable safety regulations (not carrying while drinking, for example). But then again, what do I know. I'm just an enlisted guy.
    Which is why I specifically addressed the OC/CC issue first in my initial post in this thread.

    And looky here, another guy who gets it;

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/...gun-free-zone/

    Shouldn't an army base be the last place where a terrorist should be able to shoot at people uninterrupted for 10 minutes? After all, an army base is filled with soldiers who carry guns, right? Unfortunately, that is not the case. Beginning in March 1993, under the Clinton administration, the army forbids military personnel from carrying their own personal firearms and mandates that "a credible and specific threat against [Department of the Army] personnel [exist] in that region" before military personnel "may be authorized to carry firearms for personal protection." Indeed, most military bases have relatively few military police as they are in heavy demand to serve in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    The unarmed soldiers could do little more than cower as Major Nidal Malik Hasan stood on a desk and shot down into the cubicles in which his victims were trapped. Some behaved heroically, such as private first class Marquest Smith who repeatedly risked his life removing five soldiers and a civilian from the carnage. But, being unarmed, these soldiers were unable to stop Hasan's attack.

    The wife of one of the soldiers shot at Ft. Hood understood this all too well. Mandy Foster's husband had been shot but was fortunate enough not to be seriously injured. In an interview on CNN on Monday night, Mrs. Foster was asked by anchor John Roberts how she felt about her husband "still scheduled for deployment in January" to Afghanistan. Ms. Foster responded: "At least he's safe there and he can fire back, right?" -- It is hard to believe that we don't trust soldiers with guns on an army base when we trust these very same men in Iraq and Afghanistan. Unfortunately, most of CNN's listeners probably didn't understand the rules that Ms. Foster was referring to.

    The law-abiding, not the criminals, are the ones who obey the ban on guns. Instead of making areas safe for victims, the bans make it safe for the criminal. Hasan not only violated the army's ban on carrying a gun, he also apparently violated the rules that require soldiers to register privately owned guns at the post.

    Research shows that allowing individuals to defend themselves dramatically reduces the rates of multiple victim public shootings. Even if attacks still occur, having civilians with permitted concealed handguns limits the damage. A major factor in determining how many people are harmed by these killers is the amount of time that elapses between when the attack starts and someone is able to arrive on the scene with a gun. Ten minutes must have seemed like an eternity to those trapped in the attack at Ft. Hood. All the multiple victim public shootings in the U.S. -- in which more than three people have been killed -- have all occurred in places where concealed handguns have been banned.

    For several days now, some in the media and various gun control groups have focused on a so-called "cop killer" gun that Hasan used. The five-seven is a conventional semi-automatic pistol. In fact, the bullets that it fires are relatively small, only being in the .22 caliber class. Unlike rifles, even higher caliber handguns don't fire publicly available ammunition at sufficient velocity to penetrate a police officer's vest. There is a special type of handgun ammunition that can penetrate some types of body armor, but under federal law it is not legal to manufacture or import that ammunition for sale to the public.

    For the safety of our soldiers and citizens, we hope that this simple fact about the Ft. Hood attack and the role that gun-free zones played in allowing yet another multiple victim public shooting becomes part of the news coverage itself. The political debate about guns would be quite different if even once in a while a news story clearly explained that there has been another multiple victim public shooting in a gun-free zone.

    I wonder if John Lott is also incorrect?
    "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun."

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