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Thread: OC Discrimination (Food City, Floyd County)

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    I just got back from going to the local grocery store (Food City) and had an adventure.

    I know the employees that work there and I had stopped in to grab a bite to eat while I there. On my way out, I was stopped by one of the managers and informed that I COULD NOT open carry in the store. I was told that it was "illegal" and that they had been informed that if ANYONE came into the store openly carrying, they were to call the police to have them removed! Being that I knew the manager in question, I politely explained to him that while I appreciated his situation, that they had been mis-informed. I explained to him that there was nothing illegal to open carrying in the state of Kentucky.

    Any input from the group?
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    While you are correct that it is not illegal in most places of business, management can, under their discretion, ask someone open carrying to leave. However, they are supposed to have a sign posted stating "No Firearms". But you won't have much of a case if you try to argue it. It is illegal to OC or CC in federal buildings, court houses, police stations, and anywhere that serves predominantly alcohol.

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    I live around the same area, I'll try to OC there the next time I go in just to see what their response is. Maybe print the KY OC pamplet and deliver it to the manager

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    It's simple, you can carry into any store. If the manager tells you that you cannot, then you have to comply. It's not illegal to carry the gun in, but it's a criminal trespass charge if you refuse to leave. Don't forget your on PRIVATE property.


    ToniDaTyga, you forgot schools.

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    I just want to modify what Toni said. It is NOT illegal to OC at a police station & courthouse (it is illegal in the courtroom).

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    ToniDaTyga wrote:
    While you are correct that it is not illegal in most places of business, management can, under their discretion, ask someone open carrying to leave. However, they are supposed to have a sign posted stating "No Firearms". But you won't have much of a case if you try to argue it. It is illegal to OC or CC in federal buildings, court houses, police stations, and anywhere that serves predominantly alcohol.
    I second langzaiguy. I don't believe it is "illegal" to OC into police stations & courthouses. Please cite your reference.

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    neuroblades wrote:
    I just got back from going to the local grocery store (Food City) and had an adventure.

    I know the employees that work there and I had stopped in to grab a bite to eat while I there. On my way out, I was stopped by one of the managers and informed that I COULD NOT open carry in the store. I was told that it was "illegal" and that they had been informed that if ANYONE came into the store openly carrying, they were to call the police to have them removed! Being that I knew the manager in question, I politely explained to him that while I appreciated his situation, that they had been mis-informed. I explained to him that there was nothing illegal to open carrying in the state of Kentucky.

    Any input from the group?
    I would keep some of the Kentucky OC brochures on hand when you OC. Give them to managers who are as misinformed as this one. Then explain to him that people CC into his store on a daily basis. Good luck enforcing that store policy.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    ToniDaTyga wrote:
    While you are correct that it is not illegal in most places of business, management can, under their discretion, ask someone open carrying to leave. However, they are supposed to have a sign posted stating "No Firearms". But you won't have much of a case if you try to argue it. It is illegal to OC or CC in federal buildings, court houses, police stations, and anywhere that serves predominantly alcohol.
    I totally agree with your statement ToniDa but this business is a public grocery store, No signs posted, No indication for an anti-gun stigma either. I personally know this place of business, I shop there alot. This was only the second time I've been in there with my sidearm. Another manager had even been joking around with me earlier while I was in there shopping and looking around. That manager had not said anything in reference to my sidearm. In fact that manager knows that I OC from time to time but that ALWAYS carry my gun in my vehicle.

    But I digress, The conversation with that one manager was a calm and polite one, I know that manager as well and I explained that I was not meaning to sound like a smart aleck but that he had been mis-informed by corporate as to the law concerning OC. This was in reference to his statement that it was "illegal to OC in the state of Kentucky". Not looking to cause a rift that might cause a negative POV of people who OC, I currently do not have my CCDW as of yet, working on that. *S*

    Anyway, I'll be filing a complaint with the corporate office about this incident so that they do know that it is in fact legal to OC unless they have it posted on the doors.
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    APGHunter wrote:
    I live around the same area, I'll try to OC there the next time I go in just to see what their response is. Maybe print the KY OC pamplet and deliver it to the manager
    APG Hunter: The actual store manager is currently off work due to medical reason but should be returning soon. The acting managers though might be interested in knowing about the law pertaining to OC & CC in Ky.

    Anyone that might like to weigh in on this to the KVAT corporate office, you can go to the Food City website here: www.foodcity.com

    Gun owners need to make their voices heard within the sea of rhetoric. I'm working to keep this situation calm and polite, I know all these people personally and to cause a negative POV of gun owners both, OC, & CC , is NOT my desire here. I seek to educate them about the law.
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

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    APGHunter wrote:
    I live around the same area, I'll try to OC there the next time I go in just to see what their response is. Maybe print the KY OC pamplet and deliver it to the manager
    Have you had the chance to stop it there yet? If so, did they say anything?
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    A manager may or not be an "agent" of the corporation.
    If not, he cannot speak / act in an official position as it pertains to the wishes of the owner.
    In KY any employee is considered an "agent" of the business (owner). Whether or not an employee has the permission of the owner to prohibit any activity is another question.

    Been there. Done that. Was in business here for a number of years - and I've got the attorneys' bills for it. I got to the point that we had to seek legal counsel on almost everything in this litigious society (translation: "IT'S SOMEBODY ELSE'S FAULT. I'M NOT RESPONSIBLE.).

    I once had to fend off a lawsuit from a guy that got bitten by his own dog on company property. We won.

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    Sorry if I misquoted. Dug up Kentucky law for reference:

    (16) Except as provided in KRS 527.020, no license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed firearm into:

    (a) Any police station or sheriff's office;

    (b) Any detention facility, prison, or jail;

    (c) Any courthouse, solely occupied by the Court of Justice courtroom, or court proceeding;

    (d) Any meeting of the governing body of a county, municipality, or special district; or any meeting of the General Assembly or a committee of the General Assembly, except that nothing in this section shall preclude a member of the body, holding a concealed deadly weapon license, from carrying a concealed deadly weapon at a meeting of the body of which he or she is a member;

    (e) Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense beer or alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to that purpose;

    (f) Any elementary or secondary school facility without the consent of school authorities as provided in KRS 527.070, any child-caring facility as defined in KRS 199.011, any day-care center as defined in KRS 199.894, or any certified family child-care home as defined in KRS 199.8982, except however, any owner of a certified child-care home may carry a concealed firearm into the owner's residence used as a certified child-care home;

    (g) An area of an airport to which access is controlled by the inspection of persons and property; or

    (h) Any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.

    (17) The owner, business or commercial lessee, or manager of a private business enterprise, day-care center as defined in KRS 199.894 or certified or licensed family child-care home as defined in KRS 199.8982, or a health-care facility licensed under KRS Chapter 216B, except facilities renting or leasing housing, may prohibit persons holding concealed deadly weapon licenses from carrying concealed deadly weapons on the premises and may prohibit employees, not authorized by the employer, holding concealed deadly weapons licenses from carrying concealed deadly weapons on the property of the employer. If the building or the premises are open to the public, the employer or business enterprise shall post signs on or about the premises if carrying concealed weapons is prohibited. Possession of weapons, or ammunition, or both in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the weapons, or ammunition, or both are not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. A private but not a public employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employer, but may not prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employee, except that the Justice and Public Safety Cabinet may prohibit an employee from carrying any weapons, or ammunition, or both other than the weapons, or ammunition, or both issued or authorized to be used by the employee of the cabinet, in a vehicle while transporting persons under the employee's supervision or jurisdiction. Carrying of a concealed weapon, or ammunition, or both in a location specified in this subsection by a license holder shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial from the premises or removal from the premises, and, if an employee of an employer, disciplinary measures by the employer.

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    Well, seeing as how the Commonwealth of Kentucky assumed proprietership of the Pennsylvania Rifle and Pennsylvania Bourbon (hey, I can live with it - it's okay), let's see where we differ:

    (a) Any police station or sheriff's office; Nope,no such restriction here for police stations. Our sheriffs are, however, court officers and not law enforcement officers, so we have a restriction here.

    (b) Any detention facility, prison, or jail; Same, same.

    (c) Any courthouse, solely occupied by the Court of Justice courtroom, or court proceeding; Same, same.

    (d) Any meeting of the governing body of a county, municipality, or special district; or any meeting of the General Assembly or a committee of the General Assembly, except that nothing in this section shall preclude a member of the body, holding a concealed deadly weapon license, from carrying a concealed deadly weapon at a meeting of the body of which he or she is a member; No restrictions on municipal government meetings. The state capitol houses the state supreme court, and the county government is in the county court house, so the court restriction applies to the whole building.

    (e) Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense beer or alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to that purpose; No such restriction - the law is silent on such.

    (f) Any elementary or secondary school facility without the consent of school authorities as provided in KRS 527.070, any child-caring facility as defined in KRS 199.011, any day-care center as defined in KRS 199.894, or any certified family child-care home as defined in KRS 199.8982, except however, any owner of a certified child-care home may carry a concealed firearm into the owner's residence used as a certified child-care home; K-12 schools only, except an exception is made when carrying for "other lawful purposes" which really hasn't been clearly identified (many would argue that self defense is a lawful purpose).

    (g) An area of an airport to which access is controlled by the inspection of persons and property; This is federal. or

    (h) Any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. This needed repeating in state law?



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    Excellent reference, however, I want to point out that it only refers to CC while my comments pertained only to OC.

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    Statkowski, you're going to have to cite your bourbon reference!

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    Bourbon reference: http://www1.american.edu/TED/kentuckybourbon.htm

    Pennsylvania whiskey producers fought the Whiskey Rebellion against a tyrannical central government. They lost. But, to placate the vanquished, they were offered land in the Territory of Kentucky. They moved their business to Kentucky.

    So, it started out in Pennsylvania.

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    Statkowski, I know it's off topic but I'm a stickler when it comes to bourbon. Most credit Elijah Craig of Georgetown, KY of inventing the strict process of making bourbon. I have no doubt that whiskey distillers from PA came to KY in what was Bourbon Co. and produced whiskey. However, the name and process of Bourbon is generally credited to Craig.

    Sorry, KY bourbon is what I'm finicky about

    Oh yeah, sorry for the hijack!

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    New locale, new water, new flavor. No problem.

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    The original store manager returned back to work today. If anyone would like to make there voices heard on this, please feel free to stop in. If they don't hear from us then this will only continue.
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

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    ToniDaTyga wrote:
    Sorry if I misquoted. Dug up Kentucky law for reference:

    (16) Except as provided in KRS 527.020, no license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed firearm into:

    (a) Any police station or sheriff's office;

    (b) Any detention facility, prison, or jail;

    (c) Any courthouse, solely occupied by the Court of Justice courtroom, or court proceeding;

    (d) Any meeting of the governing body of a county, municipality, or special district; or any meeting of the General Assembly or a committee of the General Assembly, except that nothing in this section shall preclude a member of the body, holding a concealed deadly weapon license, from carrying a concealed deadly weapon at a meeting of the body of which he or she is a member;

    (e) Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense beer or alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to that purpose;

    (f) Any elementary or secondary school facility without the consent of school authorities as provided in KRS 527.070, any child-caring facility as defined in KRS 199.011, any day-care center as defined in KRS 199.894, or any certified family child-care home as defined in KRS 199.8982, except however, any owner of a certified child-care home may carry a concealed firearm into the owner's residence used as a certified child-care home;

    (g) An area of an airport to which access is controlled by the inspection of persons and property; or

    (h) Any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.

    (17) The owner, business or commercial lessee, or manager of a private business enterprise, day-care center as defined in KRS 199.894 or certified or licensed family child-care home as defined in KRS 199.8982, or a health-care facility licensed under KRS Chapter 216B, except facilities renting or leasing housing, may prohibit persons holding concealed deadly weapon licenses from carrying concealed deadly weapons on the premises and may prohibit employees, not authorized by the employer, holding concealed deadly weapons licenses from carrying concealed deadly weapons on the property of the employer. If the building or the premises are open to the public, the employer or business enterprise shall post signs on or about the premises if carrying concealed weapons is prohibited. Possession of weapons, or ammunition, or both in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the weapons, or ammunition, or both are not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. A private but not a public employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employer, but may not prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employee, except that the Justice and Public Safety Cabinet may prohibit an employee from carrying any weapons, or ammunition, or both other than the weapons, or ammunition, or both issued or authorized to be used by the employee of the cabinet, in a vehicle while transporting persons under the employee's supervision or jurisdiction. Carrying of a concealed weapon, or ammunition, or both in a location specified in this subsection by a license holder shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial from the premises or removal from the premises, and, if an employee of an employer, disciplinary measures by the employer.
    Those prohibitions refer to KRS 237.110 on carrying concealed deadly weapons, and does not apply to open carry. This is further evidenced by the insertion of the word "concealed" before every mention of weapon or firearm in the subsections.

    To the best of my knowledge, the Kentucky state legislature does not have the power to regulate open carry

    237.110 License to carry concealed deadly weapon -- Criteria -- Training --
    Application -- Issuance and denial of licenses -- Automated listing of license
    holders -- Suspension or revocation -- Renewal -- Prohibitions -- Reciprocity --
    Reports -- Requirements for training classes.

    This is supported by existing case law. My apologies to those who have to read these references repeatedly. Apparently this misconception is widespread throughout Kentucky.

    Holland v Commonwealth 294 S.W.2d 893 (1956)

    Prosecution of a deputy sheriff for carrying a concealed deadly weapon. The Circuit Court, Perry County, C.C. Wells, Judge, entered judgment of conviction and defendant appealed. The Court of Appeals, Moremen, Judge, held that where deputy sheriff went outside of the county in which he was appointed to locate an alleged offender for the purpose of offender’s arrest pursuant to a warrant which had been delivered to him, he had the right to carry a concealed deadly weapon.
    Judgment reversed with instructions that indictment be dismissed.
    MOREMEN, Judge.
    "……Section 1, subd. 7 of the Bill of Rights, which is concerned with inherent and inalienable rights, grants to all citizens:
    The right to bear arms in defense of themselves and of the State, subject to the power of the General Assembly to enact laws to prevent persons from carrying concealed weapons.’
    The foregoing section is an exemplification of the broadest expression of the right to bear arms. Some states give the legislature the right to regulate the carrying of firearms; at least one state prohibits even the possession of firearms. See cases collected in the annotation of Pierce v State of Oklahoma, 42 Okl. Cr. 272, 275 P. 393, 73 A.L.R. 833.
    In our state the legislature is empowered only to deny to citizens the right to carry concealed weapons. The constitutional provision is an affirmation of the faith that all men have the inherent right to arm themselves for the defense of themselves and of the state. The only limitation concerns the mode of carrying such instruments. We observe, via obiter dicta, that although a person is granted the right to carry a weapon openly, a severe penalty is imposed for carrying it concealed. If the gun is worn outside the jacket or shirt in full view, no one may question the wearer’s right so to do; but if it is carried under the jacket or shirt, the violator is subject to imprisonment for not less than two nor more than five years. The heavy emphasis, we suppose, is upon the undue advantage given to a person who is able suddenly to expose and use a weapon, although the gun itself is the vicious instrument………."
    Emphasis supplied.

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    Regular Member neuroblades's Avatar
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    Just an update on the situation. I've been in contact with one of the store managers who seems to be in the same mindset (Pro-Firearms, Pro 2A). I've requested a copy of the corporate policy concerning OC within the store and he's supposed to be contacting the gentleman in charge of corporate security for this information.

    Somewhere along the line it had been mentioned that the manager that told me that it was "illegal to OC in Kentucky" had apparently mentioned the incident to store management and I'd heard indirectly that the store manager had no issues supposedly with my carrying as long as it was legal and by the law, which it is.

    As soon as I have the said information and get to look it over and determine how they stand on this issue, I'll post it here for the rest of the forum.
    Got SIG? MOLON LABE

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