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Thread: Defensive Systems Unit Ballistic Research

  1. #1
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    WARNING SOME PHOTOS IN THE FBI'S RESEARCH IS EXTREMELY GRAPHIC.


    http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

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    lol at his tattoo. guess its what he wanted

    they defiantly did a number on him

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    Yep, I should have put this in my knock down thread, but felt it should be a new thread.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

  4. #4
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    zack991 wrote:
    Yep, I should have put this in my knock down thread, but felt it should be a new thread.
    Think I saw your thread, or a similar one. Let me add this short hunting story.

    My first hunt involved two buddies and my self driving for a day and night to get to a spot in northeast Washington state. To make a long story short, Bill and I were startled by a porcupine crossing the road about 50 yards in front of us. Startled, we were. Looking for deer.

    So, like a two buck hungry idiots, we started pumping shots with our 30-30s through this poor critter. I scored the first hit, and was puzzled why it kept walking across the road. Which begs another question: Why does a porcupine cross the road, with two idiots shooting at it?

    Anyhow, the two of us finally managed to kill him with 7 shots from our .30-.30s.

    So, I believe the ability for a shot animal to continue on .... is quite probable.

    post scriptum: I was young and stupid at the time, and offer this experience only as educational. Don't kill it if you won't eat it.

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    I'm a bit confused was the official & true report that,

    1) the 40 cal's from the Glock's were doing the job and acceptable or not ?

    2) The Hornady 223 TAP was acceptable or not ?


    From the 1st hand evidence of Sergeant Belavia in Falusa (( read his book House To House, in his numerous house to house and room to room fire fights (( with multiple kills to his credit & count )) the 5.65 /223 is NOT a good round and as Sergeant Belavia say's, quote: "the 5.65/223 is a varmint round NOT a man stopper, it only good for grievously wounding the enemy but NOT "stopping" a man in his tracks it usually takes multiple hits to put the enemy down but 1 AK round can knock you off you ass .

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    SteveInAshand wrote:
    I'm a bit confused was the officialÂ* & true report that,

    1)Â* the 40 cal's from the Glock's were doing the job and acceptable or not ?

    2) The Hornady 223 TAP was acceptable or not ?


    From the 1st hand evidence of Sergeant Belavia in FalusaÂ* (( read his book House To House,Â* in his numerous house to house and room to room fire fights (( with multiple kills to his credit & count )) the 5.65 /223 is NOT a good round and as Sergeant Belavia say's, quote: "the 5.65/223 is a varmint round NOT a man stopper, it only good for grievously woundingÂ* the enemy but NOT "stopping"Â* a man in his tracks it usually takes multiple hits to put the enemy down but 1 AK round can knock you off you ass .

    Yeah, I'd love to have an AK47, but, I just like guns.
    :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

  7. #7
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    SteveInAshand wrote:
    I'm a bit confused was the official & true report that,

    1) the 40 cal's from the Glock's were doing the job and acceptable or not ?

    2) The Hornady 223 TAP was acceptable or not ?


    From the 1st hand evidence of Sergeant Belavia in Falusa (( read his book House To House, in his numerous house to house and room to room fire fights (( with multiple kills to his credit & count )) the 5.65 /223 is NOT a good round and as Sergeant Belavia say's, quote: "the 5.65/223 is a varmint round NOT a man stopper, it only good for grievously wounding the enemy but NOT "stopping" a man in his tracks it usually takes multiple hits to put the enemy down but 1 AK round can knock you off you ass .
    I highly disagree with the above bold sentence. It had no problems at stopping the insurgents that we ran into in Iraq or Afghanistan. Like it has been said before it all depends on where the round has hit and it has been said the police in a shootout have a hit % below 50%. It has more to do with the person using the firearm then the round itself. With his logic you would think a .50 BMG would turn someone into large pink mist, I have seen personally a insurgent get back up after being hit by a .50 bmg and then stumbled a few yards away and died. Just reading that sentence shows bias of the round more then actual facts. There is a substantial body of academic forensic analysis of the .223s terminal performance. This includes extensive autopsy work, as well as prolonged accumulation of wound and mortality data from battlefield and law enforcement encounters.

    My friend said it best.
    The United States Department of Defense studied terminal performance of the 5.56 NATO round during the initial deployment of that round to Southeast Asia. Setting aside the later problems that would tarnish the M16 reputation, and unfortunately taint the round by association, the terminal performance of the round itself was deemed to be excellent.
    The most documented encounter involving the .223 is the infamous FBI Miami shootout. With the exception of several presidential assassinations and attempts, this is the most carefully, forensically analyzed gunfight in history. In that fight, five FBI agents were hit with a .223 round fired from a Ruger Mini-14: Head (1), neck (1), arm (1) and torso (2). All four of the men hit in the torso, head and neck were immediately removed from the fight. The man hit in the arm was unable to operate that limb.

    People suggest that slow expansion soft points are needed for the .223 to be potent. The .223 FMJ was developed specifically to remove that need. At appropriate weight, velocity, and stabilization, the .223 was designed to overcome the disadvantages of internationally mandated military FMJ ammunition. It yaws upon entry into flesh, tumbling and traveling sideways to create a large wound channel, coming apart during the process.
    Yes, .30 cal rifles have superior penetration performance against targets behind cover, and in the case of rounds like the .308 Win., will carry more energy at very long ranges. But they don't necessarily have better terminal performance than the .223 at the ranges at which most people are capable of
    accurate fire.

    Factor in the number of platforms available, the ubiquity of the ammo, the low recoil, the cost, the ability to store and carry more rounds: The .223 is a very good choice in a main defensive weapon.
    Regards, - Rich S.

    I really wish people would keep a open mind and really look at the facts of the rounds pros and cons verses claiming it to be the God of all rounds.

    As for your question neither round was able to stop them as soon as the officers thought they would. Both rounds performed as they where designed to do, but police are looking for an excuse in this case as it being the bullets fault rather then police having poor shooting skills. Looking at the facts and photos in the file that supports this. If they could even get half of those rounds center mass on the assailant then they would have stopped him so much sooner.


    At least 107 rounds (.40/.223) were fired by two
    officers.

    • First officer on scene seriously wounded in left
    forearm and seat-belted in cruiser was unable to
    return fire.
    • Assailant fired 26 rounds and reloaded magazine
    from box of loose ammunition.
    • Assailant was shot 17 times with 11 rounds
    exiting body.
    • Incident lasted approximately 3.5 minutes.

    LESS THEN 10% HIT PERCENTAGE.

    Page 20

    The performance of the .223 TAP ammunition,
    although consistent with manufacturer’s claims,
    did not perform terminally as this Police
    Department expected.


    Page 21
    Determined individuals can sustain many
    gunshot wounds in areas that produce great
    pain and continue to fight a long time, even
    without the aid of drugs or alcohol.
    • Shot placement is everything in a gunfight
    and always the key to stopping a threat
    effectively.



    In short both rounds where more then effective in stopping the person, but had people less effective in being able to be accurate with those rounds. The PD felt it was not their officers piss poor performance, but the rounds not turning the man into jello when they shot him in the foot.
    -I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you screw with me, I'll kill you all.
    -Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    Marine General James Mattis,

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