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Thread: Some ?'s

  1. #1
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    So at my job right now i am doing security at night due to the fact we just fired someone that has extra keys and probably will come steal stuff. But we also get a lot of vandalism. First question is that I am currently open carry. But I just purchased a ruger LCP for when I get my CFP. But my boss said that I can CC If I want ready to go. But does this make it legally? I don't think so but just want to know. Also say this ex-co worker does come. Can I legally detaine him? Handcuffs, zipties, gun point? And same with vandilisers. I would think not but again would like to know due to the fact of if not why am I here? Sorry for the dumb questions but I want to know. Also I want to point out I am not a security officer or anything like that just a maintence worker doing night security. And anyone here after hourse is tresspassing

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    You bring up some good questions. My understanding is that the owner of the property may be able to CC on his own property (or does this only apply to a residence and or vehicle). Can a property owner delegate that right to you because you are acting as his agent? Don't know.

    I would defiantly OC for the time being, your employer may be putting you in a situation that could be a legal nightmare for you and for him. It might get complicated real quik..You can't shoot him for just steeling property. If you happened to get injured, would your employer foot the medical bills? WCF would probably question your claim if you got injured doing the duties of a security guard when they have you listed as a janator...not the same risk as a rent a cop.

    Can you detain him: I think you, as acitizen,can arrest/detain a person if you suspect they are or about to commit a Felony.

    Be careful





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    EDIT: Never mind

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    Regular Member Utah_Patriot's Avatar
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    First of all you have no arrest powers since you are not a LEO. Now you can make a citizens arrest which means you detain him while waiting for the police.

    Now a firearm are you currently a Concealed Carry Permit Holder. If Not then it must be two actions from firing unless you have the property owners permission to carry loaded on private property.

    Please keep in mind a firearm is to be only used in a life or death situation. Protecting property is not reason to draw your firearm. If you saw your co-worker and you drew your firearm you better have a good reason other then he was trespassing on private property.

    Handcuffs and other restraint devices should require training. You can do damage to a person if not used correctly.

    Remember you are not a police officer or a security officer you are a maintenance worker. I think it is unfair for your employer to put you in this situation. Your best bet is to call the police if you see this person and not approach the person. Unless you have a good lawyer who is willing to defend you.
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    Observe and report, my friend. To do otherwise would be foolish.


    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    JoeRandall wrote:
    First question is that I am currently open carry. But I just purchased a ruger LCP for when I get my CFP. But my boss said that I can CC If I want ready to go. But does this make it legally?
    No. The law is fairly clear on this. If your place of employment was under your control, you could make that call.

    Unless you own the Utah State Fairpark, CC without a permit is a no-go, regardless of who says it's OK.

    76-10-504. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
    (1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2), (3), and (4), a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, including an unloaded firearm on his or her person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in or on a place other than the person's residence, property, a vehicle in the person's lawful possession, or a vehicle, with the consent of the individual who is lawfully in possession of the vehicle, or business under the person's control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor.
    (2) A person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a loaded firearm in violation of Subsection (1) is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) A person who carries concealed a sawed-off shotgun or a sawed-off rifle is guilty of a second degree felony.
    (4) If the concealed firearm is used in the commission of a violent felony as defined in Section 76-3-203.5, and the person is a party to the offense, the person is guilty of a second degree felony.
    (5) Nothing in Subsection (1) or (2) shall prohibit a person engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23, Wildlife Resources Code of Utah, from carrying a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm with a barrel length of four inches or greater as long as the taking of wildlife does not occur:
    (a) within the limits of a municipality in violation of that municipality's ordinances; or
    (b) upon the highways of the state as defined in Section 41-6a-102.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    First of all you have no arrest powers since you are not a LEO. Now you can make a citizens arrest which means you detain him while waiting for the police.
    Under Utah law, arrest is arrest, and citizens absolutely have arrest powers (77-7-3). The only differences between LEO arrest and citizen arrest are (a) citizens may arrest for misdemeanors only if the offense was committed in their presence and (b) LEOs may use deadly force to effect an arrest.

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    Thanks you for the replies and no I do not have a CCW yet. And I know I cannot shoot him for stealing. I would not draw my weapon unless life threatening. What I ment was If life threatening situation happened I could draw and if he stopped his/hers assault I could hold them until the police got there with the weapon. As for handcuffs I do not own any but put them to help understand why I put zip-ties. Thanks again guys.

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    Also I dont find it unfair. My Job is whatever is asked of my to do. Wrench, Weld, Security, or clean a craper. I was jus wondering what I am able to do. We are having the ski sale and its been broken into quite a bit lately and its easy to get away befor the police can arrive to the park

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    gunsfreak4791 wrote:
    Please keep in mind a firearm is to be only used in a life or death situation. Protecting property is not reason to draw your firearm.
    Not entirely true. Deadly force is authorized to prevent any forcible felony INCLUDING robbery and burglary. Don't want to get into what you should or should not do, just what is legal.

    -U.C.A 76-2-402:

    (1) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that force is necessary to defend himself or a third person against such other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, that person is justified in using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if he or she reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or a third person as a result of the other’s imminent use of unlawful force, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

    (4) For purposes of this section, a forcible felony includes aggravated assault, mayhem, aggravated murder, murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, and aggravated kidnapping, rape, forcible sodomy, rape of a child, object rape, object rape of a child, sexual abuse of a child, aggravated sexual abuse of a child, and aggravated sexual assault as defined in Title 76, Chapter 5, and arson, robbery, and burglary as defined in Title 76, Chapter 6. Any other felony offense which involves the use of force or violence against a person so as to create a substantial danger of death or serious bodily injury also constitutes a forcible felony. Burglary of a vehicle, defined in Section 76-6-204, does not constitute a forcible felony except when the vehicle is occupied at the time unlawful entry is made or attempted.


  11. #11
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    I disagree with Gunsfreak... If someone is in your house, and you do not know them, you better point your gun at them until you find out what they're there for... or atleast a FREEZE... yes, it may be a good guy, but chances are, if theres a person whom you don't know... IN YOUR HOUSE... better to be safe than sorry. Entering someones house without their consent IS very illegal

  12. #12
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    Rusty_Shackleford wrote:
    You bring up some good questions. My understanding is that the owner of the property may be able to CC on his own property (or does this only apply to a residence and or vehicle). Can a property owner delegate that right to you because you are acting as his agent? Don't know.

    I would defiantly OC for the time being, your employer may be putting you in a situation that could be a legal nightmare for you and for him. It might get complicated real quik..You can't shoot him for just steeling property. If you happened to get injured, would your employer foot the medical bills? WCF would probably question your claim if you got injured doing the duties of a security guard when they have you listed as a janator...not the same risk as a rent a cop.

    Can you detain him: I think you, as acitizen,can arrest/detain a person if you suspect they are or about to commit a Felony.

    Be careful



    +1 to the OC part... I strongly suggest armed security OPENCARRY!!! Everyone knows, if a bad guy sees unarmed security... what can they do? "stop, or ill tell you to stop again" like an english bobby... if they see ARMED security, the first thing that pops in their mind... "Cop???" and they will reconsider their actions... just like us civvies who OC, if a bad guy wants to rob or kill someone, and they see one of us... they will reconsider their acts because they have a visual on our firearm, and know that we can shoot back

    (said this just to inform JoeRandall)

    Also joe... even if you DO just decide to opencarry... STILL get your CWP, that way it can be loaded (bullet in the chamber) and you can enter school property. Just because someone has a CWP does not mean you have to stop Opencarrying. (I have had to correct MANY people, including a cop, on this subject. I bet the cop still does'nt believe me.)

  13. #13
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    As long as you are on PRIVATE Property (NOT on a public highway) you are under no restiction to carry Utah Unloaded. Carry Fully Loaded in your desire but keep it OPEN!



    Just remember to be Utah Unloaded before you go on the road. But once in your vehicle you can be fully loaded and concealed IF YOU DESIRE.



    Seems just a little complex but at least we don't have California's issues with the Loaded/unloaded checks!
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