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Thread: Anti-gun control article in Santa Barbara paper

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    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    From a calguns post... http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=239649

    http://www.thedailysound.com/opinion/111009rot



    So much for gun control

    By RANDY ALCORN — Nov. 10, 2009

    There is little to salvage from last week’s mass murder at Fort Hood, Texas, but there are some stark realizations this heartbreaking horror exposes. One is the wishful but mistaken notion that such incidents can be prevented by laws prohibiting or strictly restricting access to firearms. The Second Amendment not with standing, U.S. military bases prohibit unauthorized personnel from carrying firearms on base. Access to military weapons is carefully restricted and weapons are secured in armories.

    Never the less, even within the well regulated conditions of a military base, a man was able to acquire and conceal two powerful personal handguns which he used to murder 13 people and wound dozens of others.

    The argument that a prohibition against firearms will eliminate the possession of firearms by anyone is clearly refuted by the ample empirical evidence that prohibition simply does not succeed in its intended objective when the subject of the prohibition is something that enough of the population wants. No matter how draconian the restrictions or dire the legal consequences prohibition is defeated by desire.

    Prostitution, booze, and drugs are or have been prohibited by law with no appreciable effect on eliminating any of them. In fact, illegal drugs consistently find their way into prisons—the most secured, restrictive institutions in society. Obviously, if prison inmates can gain access to drugs, and military base personnel can gain access to guns, in spite of heavy security and strict prohibitions, how will laws prevent anyone from having either?

    While good people are rightly concerned and alarmed by the lethal violence visited on society through the device of firearms, rational people understand that there is no legal magic wand that will abolish such violence simply by prohibiting possession of the device. People who want guns will get them. People who want to harm others will do so, but the amount of harm they can do could be reduced if more people were armed rather than disarmed.

    If among the murdered and wounded at Fort Hood any had been armed, the slaughter would have been less. The gunman would have been confronted by people who could defend themselves rather than by helpless victims. Free people should not only be able to arm themselves, they should be able to carry those arms on their person as they do their cell phones. Self defense is among the most basic of human and civil rights.

    Those who fear a dangerous wild-west scenario if citizens were freely armed should consider that there is danger now. There are not enough armed police to be everywhere all the time, and anyone can be caught in a situation as occurred at Fort Hood. Most people who drive cars do not drive them recklessly, and most people who own a gun do not go about shooting others without just cause.

    Another realization coming out of the Fort Hood incident is that twisted minds often wrap themselves around fixed ideologies. That, however, does not prove a cause and effect relationship between a particular ideology and the detrimental behavior of those with twisted minds.

    The murdering major at Fort Hood was a devout Muslim who was heard to shout “God is Great” as he mercilessly and methodically shot his victims. Not unexpectedly, after the shootings there soon followed threats against mosques and condemnations of Muslims.

    If murder and savagery can be eliminated by eradicating a religion, then not one but nearly all religions, and many political ideologies, must be eliminated as well. Damaged psyches, weak minds, and evil souls embrace and employ ideologies to justify their heinous actions and to salve their psychological pain. These disordered minds can be found within the Christian, Muslim, and Jewish faiths. There are also practicing paranoids preaching hyper-patriotic versions of political ideologies who can become mass murders for the cause. Recall Timothy McVeigh.

    Eliminating entire categories of people based on their religious or political beliefs will be ineffective in riding society of senseless violence. Savagery and mayhem lurk under even the thickest veneer of civilization. Wackos will simply blend in to what ever social milieu is available and pervert any ideology to validate their homicidal violence.

    Unless and until science can develop a flawless wacko-meter that detects these aberrant personalities, they will always be moving unidentified among us. Ironically, the perpetrator of the Fort Hood massacre was a psychiatrist, the closest thing we have to a wacko-meter. So, maybe we should round up all the shrinks.

    There are no ready remedies to prevent further incidents as occurred at Fort Hood, but there is awareness, for those with open minds, that police state restrictions or targeted pogroms would not only be ineffective, they would undermine the very essence of freedom and justice upon which this nation was founded, and eventually make victims of us all.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    Well, the first half of the article made me want to subscribe to this paper. The second half of the article changed my mind.

    These people are not crazy. To write them off as just being twisted, disordered, wack-ois to underestimate the enemy...a grave mistake that costs lives of Americans. To ignore the source of their motivation (their religion) is to ignore the root cause of the problem and hide the solution under the covers of political correctness.
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    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    Well, the first half of the article made me want to subscribe to this paper. The second half of the article changed my mind.
    Similar reaction. Wow to the first half, switched off at the religion bit. Bleh to it all.

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    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    Well, the first half of the article made me want to subscribe to this paper. The second half of the article changed my mind.

    These people are not crazy. To write them off as just being twisted, disordered, wack-ois to underestimate the enemy...a grave mistake that costs lives of Americans. To ignore the source of their motivation (their religion) is to ignore the root cause of the problem and hide the solution under the covers of political correctness.
    Like the way we ignore the dangers of Christianity? From witch-burning to God telling mothers to drown their children to the Crusades... a LOT of murder has occurred in the name of Jesus Christ.

    If you are willing to blame the Muslim religion for the actions of certain individuals, then you logically must also blame Christianity for all the wars/murders committed in Jesus' name.

    Of course, there is an alternative...

    The truth as I see it is that there are simply dangerous people. These people will use whatever excuse they want to do harm to others. IMO it's no different to scream "Jihad!" and then blow yourself up than to burn a "witch" or drown a baby in the name of Jesus. In most cases, religion is the excuse, not the cause

    Just a skeptic/atheist's view from the outside looking in. (Also formerly a Christian for 24 years of my life.)
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    Well, the first half of the article made me want to subscribe to this paper. The second half of the article changed my mind.

    These people are not crazy. To write them off as just being twisted, disordered, wack-ois to underestimate the enemy...a grave mistake that costs lives of Americans. To ignore the source of their motivation (their religion) is to ignore the root cause of the problem and hide the solution under the covers of political correctness.
    Like the way we ignore the dangers of Christianity? From witch-burning to God telling mothers to drown their children to the Crusades... a LOT of murder has occurred in the name of Jesus Christ.

    If you are willing to blame the Muslim religion for the actions of certain individuals, then you logically must also blame Christianity for all the wars/murders committed in Jesus' name.

    Of course, there is an alternative...

    The truth as I see it is that there are simply dangerous people. These people will use whatever excuse they want to do harm to others. IMO it's no different to scream "Jihad!" and then blow yourself up than to burn a "witch" or drown a baby in the name of Jesus. In most cases, religion is the excuse, not the cause

    Just a skeptic/atheist's view from the outside looking in. (Also formerly a Christian for 24 years of my life.)

    A little confused here.

    I'm not trying to lump all Muslims into one stereotype, nor any religion. I'm sayingdon't discount a person's religious motivation just because their views don't agree with what you expect their views to be. To label people like this as wackos or twisted or disordered is a mistake.

    There is a significant number of Muslims across the world who believe in a literal "death to infidels". These people are not wackos. Nor are they to be looked upon as individuals. When people share the same beliefs and are motivated to act in similar fashion, I would consider the actions of an individual to be that of the group. To believe that there are only one or two in the U.S. who believe this is to hide your face from the truth.

    To address the problem, you cannot ignore the source.

    (My last post on this subject since we seemed to have digressed from open carryissues.)



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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    Well, the first half of the article made me want to subscribe to this paper. The second half of the article changed my mind.

    These people are not crazy. To write them off as just being twisted, disordered, wack-ois to underestimate the enemy...a grave mistake that costs lives of Americans. To ignore the source of their motivation (their religion) is to ignore the root cause of the problem and hide the solution under the covers of political correctness.
    Like the way we ignore the dangers of Christianity? From witch-burning to God telling mothers to drown their children to the Crusades... a LOT of murder has occurred in the name of Jesus Christ.

    If you are willing to blame the Muslim religion for the actions of certain individuals, then you logically must also blame Christianity for all the wars/murders committed in Jesus' name.

    Of course, there is an alternative...

    The truth as I see it is that there are simply dangerous people. These people will use whatever excuse they want to do harm to others. IMO it's no different to scream "Jihad!" and then blow yourself up than to burn a "witch" or drown a baby in the name of Jesus. In most cases, religion is the excuse, not the cause

    Just a skeptic/atheist's view from the outside looking in. (Also formerly a Christian for 24 years of my life.)
    You are wayy off base. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach to drown babies or burn witches. The people who did that were NOT Christian. I can claim to be a vegetarian and then go off and have a 3-course meal at the local outback steak house and then by your logic you would call all vegans a bunch of meat eating hypocrites based off my actions and me proclaiming to be vegan.

    As for the Muslim religion, a Jihad can very well be taught to be a violent act in the name of Allah taught by the qur'an.

    You may be spot-on on most posts but that post was just blatantly ignorant.

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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    Well, the first half of the article made me want to subscribe to this paper. The second half of the article changed my mind.

    These people are not crazy. To write them off as just being twisted, disordered, wack-ois to underestimate the enemy...a grave mistake that costs lives of Americans. To ignore the source of their motivation (their religion) is to ignore the root cause of the problem and hide the solution under the covers of political correctness.
    Like the way we ignore the dangers of Christianity? From witch-burning to God telling mothers to drown their children to the Crusades... a LOT of murder has occurred in the name of Jesus Christ.

    If you are willing to blame the Muslim religion for the actions of certain individuals, then you logically must also blame Christianity for all the wars/murders committed in Jesus' name.

    Of course, there is an alternative...

    The truth as I see it is that there are simply dangerous people. These people will use whatever excuse they want to do harm to others. IMO it's no different to scream "Jihad!" and then blow yourself up than to burn a "witch" or drown a baby in the name of Jesus. In most cases, religion is the excuse, not the cause

    Just a skeptic/atheist's view from the outside looking in. (Also formerly a Christian for 24 years of my life.)
    Oops, I went back and re-read your comment and corrected mine.


    Point taken.

    Why is it that,following your examples ofhorrible acts committed by christians,when some whacko does something in the name of religion, religion gets blamed even ifthat religiondoesn'tteach such act? Usingthat logic, I can go TP my neighbor's house while shouting that Son's of Liberty commanded me to, and even if you had no knowledge nor approved such act, my neighbors would still be automatically justified inegging you at first sight. Not very logical.

    Yes, Islam teaches something called"jihad," but I am as of yet not knowledgeable enough about the minutiae of such a teaching to condemn it or absolve it as a negative influence (maybe Streetbikerr6 or the article's author are more knoledgeable on the issue. Maybe not).I am a skeptic, as of yet unconvinced either way. However, since you seem to speak with more authority on the matter, isthere something specific about theconcept of "jihad"that you know excludes it as a negative influence and relegate to a mere excuse like the excuses used by christians centuries ago?


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    Nopal wrote:
    ...you seem to speak with more authority on the matter, isthere something specific about theconcept of "jihad"that you know excludes it as a negative influence and relegate to a mere excuse like the excuses used by christians centuries ago?

    I don't speak with any authority on the subject. I'm speaking from my limited knowledge. The Qu'ran didn't make my summer reading list this year.

    Streetbikerr6 wrote:
    ...You are wayy off base. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach to drown babies or burn witches...
    On murdering babies: http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm#Murdering_Children

    (a lot of incredible quotes there)

    On murdering (not necessarily burning, usually stoning) witches:

    "You should not let a sorceress live." (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

    "A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death." (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

    (left out a bunch about "false prophits" and others that may not be considered witches)

    ============================================

    As a recovering Christian, I empathize with all who are still trapped in their illogical beliefs, whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jew, etc. My only point here is that it is hypocritical to say "the Qu'ran mentions Jihad, so the entire religion and the follows are prone to violence against all non-believers" unless you apply the same to the Bible. Logicially, the same logic would conclude that Christians tend to be prone to murdering babies, homosexuals, promiscuous teenagers, et al.

    All I'm trying to say is from the outside looking in, it's obvious to me neither Muslims nor Christians should have their faith held against them. I find both groups equally violent, right along with atheists, Mormons, etc. The simple fact is that they're a slice of the same world population. There's going to be violent wackos in every religion.

    =============================================

    I'll refrain from further discussion on the topic here, but I'd be willing to discuss it in PM's if anyone is interested. My apologies for posting off-topic as far as I have.
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Nopal wrote:
    ...you seem to speak with more authority on the matter, isthere something specific about theconcept of "jihad"that you know excludes it as a negative influence and relegate to a mere excuse like the excuses used by christians centuries ago?

    I don't speak with any authority on the subject. I'm speaking from my limited knowledge. The Qu'ran didn't make my summer reading list this year.

    Streetbikerr6 wrote:
    ...You are wayy off base. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach to drown babies or burn witches...
    On murdering babies: http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm#Murdering_Children

    (a lot of incredible quotes there)

    On murdering (not necessarily burning, usually stoning) witches:

    "You should not let a sorceress live." (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

    "A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death." (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

    (left out a bunch about "false prophits" and others that may not be considered witches)

    ============================================

    As a recovering Christian, I empathize with all who are still trapped in their illogical beliefs, whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jew, etc. My only point here is that it is hypocritical to say "the Qu'ran mentions Jihad, so the entire religion and the follows are prone to violence against all non-believers" unless you apply the same to the Bible. Logicially, the same logic would conclude that Christians tend to be prone to murdering babies, homosexuals, promiscuous teenagers, et al.

    All I'm trying to say is from the outside looking in, it's obvious to me neither Muslims nor Christians should have their faith held against them. I find both groups equally violent, right along with atheists, Mormons, etc. The simple fact is that they're a slice of the same world population. There's going to be violent wackos in every religion.

    =============================================

    I'll refrain from further discussion on the topic here, but I'd be willing to discuss it in PM's if anyone is interested. My apologies for posting off-topic as far as I have.
    Except for the first Isaiah quote on the link (which lacks context, therefore I can't comment), the rest speak of God killing children, or specific commands for specific battles, edicts given to a specific ancient peoples engaged in tribal warfare.

    The same goes for the quotes of the witch burning. Unless I'm mistaken, Exodusand Leviticus lay down laws for the ancient Israelites. Among these ancient laws, it included things like circumcision and hollocausts, yet I've yet to meet a priest or pastor who has suggested all our first-borns are to be circumcised and that we should slaughter lambs and burn them as offerings.

    I see your point. None of what you quoted is thaught by modern christianity, so condemning Christians for those things you quoted would be like condemning a modern human for running afoul with something written in the Magna Carta. Yet, my point still stands. I can't claim to know enough about Islam to say that the situation is analogous, and I don't think you can, either. If some of the teachings that lead people to commit such heinous crimes in the name of Islam are current, mainstream teachings, then your examples do not apply.



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