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Thread: Firearms Banned at Costco on Wall Avenue in Ogden

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    I went to Costco in Ogden, Utah on November 11, 2009. I was legally carrying a handgun in plain view on my right side, along with an extra magazine. My wife, son, and I proceeded to shop for about an hour and at the end of our shopping purchased some hot dogs and drinks to sit and eat prior to leaving. While I was sitting and finishing my hot dog I was approached by a member of the Costco staff and was politely informed that I was not allowed to wear my firearm on Costco private property, whether I had a permit or not. There was not a single sign at the entrance to the store that indicated Costco prohibited the legal carrying of firearms by licensed individuals inside the establishment. The employee, who was very polite, professional, and discrete, allowed me to finish my hot dog, and leave.

    However, the eating area was crowded, and I was approached by two members of Costco, who had overheard the exchange, and thanked me for carrying my handgun after the employee had walked away.

    Since Costco does not allow the legal carrying of firearms by law abiding citizens, you will not be able to defend yourself or others on their property, and thus Costco may not be the safest place to do your Christmas shopping this year, since I'm afraid criminals read these message boards also.

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    There are no signs, but it IS in the membership contract if I remember correctly.

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    CONTRACT TERMINATEDDDD!

    take your rights elsewhere my friend!

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    I cant believe it. Costco should know better.

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    Got this from JPFO:


    From: Stephanie Bradley [mailto:sabradley@costco.com]
    Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 12:43 PM
    To: Investor Relations
    Subject: RE: Banning guns

    Dear Mr. xxx,

    This email is in response to your October 20, 2006 letter to our Investor Relations department, regarding Costco's "No Firearms" policy at its warehouse stores.

    As an initial matter, Costco is not a place of "public accommodation" within the meaning of civil rights laws. The definition of "public accommodation" does not include a bona fide private club or other establishment that is not in fact open to the public. Costco Wholesale is a membership-only warehouse club. It is not open to the general public. It restricts membership to a limited group of qualified individuals who agree to membership conditions. We have the right, and the obligation to our members, to enact and enforce membership rules. The Member Service Employees at the exit doors are obliged to follow these rules. By obtaining a Costco membership card, our members agree to comply with the Membership Rules and the Privileges and Conditions of membership.

    Costco does not believe that it is necessary for firearms to be brought into its warehouse stores, except in the case of authorized law enforcement officers. For the protection of all our members and employees, we feel this is a reasonable and prudent precaution to ensure a pleasant shopping experience and safe workplace. Our policy is meant to protect our members and employees in all warehouses around the world. This is not a new policy and we do not customize the policy for each individual city/county/state/country where we do business.The shopping experience is not enhanced by bringing a firearm into our warehouse.

    Our primary goal at Costco Wholesale is to keep our members happy.

    Sincerely,

    Stephanie Bradley
    Executive Assistant to:
    . . Joel Benoliel - SVP-Legal & Administration
    . . Paul Latham - VP-Membership, Marketing & Services
    sabradley@costco.com

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    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    If you are dissatisfied with Costco for any reason, they will refund your membership in full.

    Let them know you are unhappy, and take your membership dues to Sam's where there is no corporate policy banning firearms.

    Oh, and welcome to OCDO! :celebrate
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    I don't care if it's in the membership contract. They should still make the effort to post it. I see your point and don't necessarily disagree but how much is a little sign, really? Does anyone really read something like a Costco membership contract in its entirety?

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    Yeah, I already have a Sam's Club card any way. I think I will just start buying most of my stuff there. They do whatever the local law says.

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    I'm not a fan of businesses posting signs. They hold no legal weight in Utah, but some people get confused and think they do.

    I think this thread gives us all an idea of Costco's general view towards carrying in their warehouses, that should be enough.

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    Signs at the entrance of a business do not make it a crime to carry a firearm into that business if you have a permit. However, they do allow you the opportunity to be a good patron and follow the rules of the establishment without having to be asked to do so by management. This makes for better relationships between all parties involved. I certainly had no intention of the offending anyone in Costco. Just by the fact that there were Costco members who heard the exchange between myself and the Costco employee and then thanked me for carrying a firearm in there means that it was probably quite the contrary. They were not offended. They felt more secure.

    In the State of Utah, if you enter a business, legally carrying a firearm, and are asked to leave or return your firearm to your vehicle, and fail to do so promptly, you can be charged with trespassing. So, for the sake of saving everyone all of the trouble, a sign would just make it more convenient. It is difficult for a busy person at the door, who is responsible for checking your membership identification and making sure you have a shopping cart to also make you turn around in order to verify that you do not have a firearm.

    A CFP in the State of Utah allows the holder only three rights that any other 21-year-old person who is not otherwise prohibited from carrying a firearm to do. It allows that person the right to carry the firearm on school grounds, which I do not advocate, the right to conceal the firearm, and the right to carry the firearm with a round in the chamber. I can assure you that there are people walking around in Costco every day with concealed, loaded firearms. The only difference between myself and them is that I happened to be carrying a firearm openly that day.

    The primary problem arises when criminals know that people inside, or outside, a certain business are defenseless. This is the case with Costco. Many members carry large sums of cash around Christmas time and take the money to Costco with the intention of purchasing big-ticket items. If you have a lot of cash, or even if you are returning an expensive item to your car, you are vulnerable if criminals know you are unable to defend yourself. That is why I would suggest not shopping at Costco around Christmas time if you are carrying large sums of cash, you intend to purchase expensive items that could be easily stolen from you in the parking lot, or even if you drive a vehicle, like an Escalade, that is commonly carjacked. I like Costco, but everyone thought Trolley Square was safe too, and they had the same policy that Costco has now. Five people died and others were seriously injured because no one had the ability to defend themselves. The death toll would have certainly been higher had it not been for one heroic off duty police officer, who was able to pin the shooter down until back-up arrived. What if he hadn't been there? People's lives are worth more than other people's negative feelings regarding the 2nd Amendment.

    I just do not believe that any person who completes a CFP course, is fingerprinted five ways from Sunday, and passes a rigorous FBI background check poses a danger to anyone at Costco. It is the people lurking in the parking lots, or even in the store, with illegally concealed firearms or knives in their pockets who pose a threat to the members and employees of Costco.

    Respect the rights of private businesses, but carry your firearm responsibly wherever you are legally permitted to do so, and be careful around, or avoid completely businesses that prohibit your legal rights. They put you and others in danger, especially in this economy.

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    kirkaroberts wrote:
    In the State of Utah, if you enter a business, legally carrying a firearm, and are asked to leave or return your firearm to your vehicle, and fail to do so promptly, you can be charged with trespassing.
    It's worth remembering that you can probably beat the charge, though.

    Utah law states that it is a defense to trespassing that the property was open to the public at the time and you were not interfering with the owner's use of their property.

    That means that in order to convict you, the prosecutor will have to prove that your actions caused the store to lose money. It hasn't been tried, that I'm aware of, but I think that would be difficult to prove.

    Note that I don't recommend refusing to leave and then trying to fight it. If you're asked to leave, leave. I think it's important to keep in mind that you're doing so out of courtesy, though, not because you have to.

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    kirkaroberts wrote:
    It allows that person the right to carry the firearm on school grounds, which I do not advocate,
    I do. I have carried openly several times in my daughters elementary school, and nobody ever says anything.

    Just last night, I went to a Veterans Day Concert at Payson Junior High School put on by the student band.

    We were there for an hour and a half, and nobody said a word about my openly displayed GLOCK 35.

    Not even the uniformed Orem police officer a few rows behind me, or the plain clothed State Trooper watching his kid perform. :P
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    kirkaroberts wrote:
    A CFP in the State of Utah allows the holder only three rights that any other 21-year-old person who is not otherwise prohibited from carrying a firearm to do. It allows that person the right to carry the firearm on school grounds, which I do not advocate, the right to conceal the firearm, and the right to carry the firearm with a round in the chamber.
    Only three, eh? :P

    What about the "right" to carry on a bus? 76-10-1504.

    What about the "right" to carry in a bus terminal? 76-10-1507.

    What about the "right" to not have to pay a fee of $7.50 to purchase a firearm? 76-10-526.

    What about the "right" to carry in more than 30 other States? http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/FAQother.html

    I realize that these are no longer our rights, as the State has stripped them from us and charged a fee to get them back.

    They should really rename it the "Firearm Privileged Permit".

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    kirkaroberts wrote:
    A CFP in the State of Utah allows the holder only three rights that any other 21-year-old person who is not otherwise prohibited from carrying a firearm to do. It allows that person the right to carry the firearm on school grounds, which I do not advocate, (I do! Schools are no different than say your example of Trolly Square. It would make me feel safer & my kids feel safer knowing that someone has the means to defend themselves or the students... I wonder how many teachers have a concealed weapon with them? Maybe they need to start carrying- are they allowed too? Any rules/laws that say a teacher can or can't carry?)
    I like Costco, but everyone thought Trolley Square was safe too, and they had the same policy that Costco has now. Five people died and others were seriously injured because no one had the ability to defend themselves. The death toll would have certainly been higher had it not been for one heroic off duty police officer, who was able to pin the shooter down until back-up arrived (his actions might have been heroic that day but what about his actions afterwards or prior to this event? He's since left the force due to criminal charges due to inappropriate sexual relations or whatever...not very heroic in my book) What if he hadn't been there?
    I just do not believe that any person who completes a CFP course, is fingerprinted five ways from Sunday, and passes a rigorous FBI background check poses a danger to anyone at Costco (I agree to a certain point however, there are plenty of stories out there where someone who has gone through this whole process and than either they "snap" emotionally for whatever reason & thanmake a poor choice &"abuse" the priviledge: granted it's a small percentage & not all CFP holders are like this. You just never know).Take for instance the two CFP holders that had discharges: one in the bathroom of Carl's Jr the other in an Olive Garden resturant- they went through the training/classes, they should have been more responsible, just negligence/stupidity on their part. Thankfully no one was hurt.Just because someone has a CFP or has gone through the process doesn't make them exempt from making stupid/poor choices, they're just has dangerous as they have a weapon that can do some serius damage or worse kill.Another reason why I'm always keeping alert & my eyes open even towards everyone, even the average everyday "joe" or soccer mom...

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    bmeldrum wrote:
    I wonder how many teachers have a concealed weapon with them? Maybe they need to start carrying- are they allowed too? Any rules/laws that say a teacher can or can't carry?
    School faculty may carry just like you or I. A valid permit is a valid permit, it does not matter who possess it.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    bmeldrum wrote:
    I wonder how many teachers have a concealed weapon with them? Maybe they need to start carrying- are they allowed too? Any rules/laws that say a teacher can or can't carry?
    School faculty may carry just like you or I. A valid permit is a valid permit, it does not matter who possess it.
    Well why the hell don't the teachers start carrying? We'd probably have less school shootings if theyall carried... I could just see theband teacher or english teacher or who ever come running into the hallway & dropping the bad guy! That would be great

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    SGT Jensen wrote:
    kirkaroberts wrote:
    It allows that person the right to carry the firearm on school grounds, which I do not advocate,
    I do. I have carried openly several times in my daughters elementary school, and nobody ever says anything.

    Just last night, I went to a Veterans Day Concert at Payson Junior High School put on by the student band.

    We were there for an hour and a half, and nobody said a word about my openly displayed GLOCK 35.

    Not even the uniformed Orem police officer a few rows behind me, or the plain clothed State Trooper watching his kid perform. :P
    My experience is the same, carrying at South Weber Elementary, Sunset Junior High and Northridge High School. The Northridge safety officer (Layton PD, I think, assigned to the high-school full-time) smiles and nods when he sees me.

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    bmeldrum wrote:
    Well why the hell don't the teachers start carrying? We'd probably have less school shootings if theyall carried... I could just see theband teacher or english teacher or who ever come running into the hallway & dropping the bad guy! That would be great
    There are teachers who carry.

    And... what school shootings? Has there EVER been a school shooting in Utah?

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    swillden wrote:
    bmeldrum wrote:
    Well why the hell don't the teachers start carrying? We'd probably have less school shootings if theyall carried... I could just see theband teacher or english teacher or who ever come running into the hallway & dropping the bad guy! That would be great
    There are teachers who carry.

    And... what school shootings? Has there EVER been a school shooting in Utah?
    not to my knowledge, I was just speaking in general "less school shootings" in the U.S: columbine, V.Tech etc etc (school officer can't be every where or two places at once so it'd help to have more teacher carry)

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    bmeldrum wrote:
    SGT Jensen wrote:
    bmeldrum wrote:
    I wonder how many teachers have a concealed weapon with them? Maybe they need to start carrying- are they allowed too? Any rules/laws that say a teacher can or can't carry?
    School faculty may carry just like you or I.¬* A valid permit is a valid permit, it does not matter who possess it.
    Well why the hell don't the teachers start carrying? ¬*We'd probably have less school shootings if they¬*all carried... I could just see the¬*band teacher or english teacher or who ever come running into the hallway & dropping the bad guy! That would be great
    More often than not teachers get dissuaded from carrying by the teacher's union. From what I heard, if you carry and have any issues where your employment is in jeopardy (firearm related or not), the Union will not assist you.

    This is all hearsay, but it has been verified by two K12 teachers I talked to.

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    kirkaroberts wrote:
    It allows that person the right to carry the firearm on school grounds, which I do not advocate,


    I see so it is ok to have a free fire zone at school but not Costco? You have no grasp of our rights.

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    bmeldrum wrote:
    swillden wrote:
    bmeldrum wrote:
    Well why the hell don't the teachers start carrying? We'd probably have less school shootings if theyall carried... I could just see theband teacher or english teacher or who ever come running into the hallway & dropping the bad guy! That would be great
    There are teachers who carry.

    And... what school shootings? Has there EVER been a school shooting in Utah?
    not to my knowledge, I was just speaking in general "less school shootings" in the U.S: columbine, V.Tech etc etc (school officer can't be every where or two places at once so it'd help to have more teacher carry)
    I agree, but in those places teachers CAN'T carry. In Utah they can and some do.

    Coincidence? Maybe a little, but not entirely.

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    Enforcement of this policy seems to vary from store to store. Also probably depends on just how noticeable your firearm is. I find Costco to be a fine place to CC, or casually CC (the Utah permit gives one a lot of options). The money I save shopping there compared to other available alternatives can be used for any number of worthy causes including ammo purchases.

    As for school zones, Utah law is clear: Those with permits may legally carry at schools. Furthermore, because most government entities other than the State legislature are not allowed to regulate guns at all, school districts cannot have a "no guns" policy as part of their employment contract. Most school districts do seem to have a policy of requiring employees to keep their guns out of sight.

    We've never had a school shooting in Utah. A couple of false scares (kid walking home with his model of a Revolutionary musket causing concern) and maybe one incident that did not result in anyone getting shot. But no school shootings.

    Charles

    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    For what it's worth, I OC at COSTCO all the time with no issues. I've had more problems at Wally World than COSTCO.

    YMMV

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    I too carry openly at Costco, Orem and Lehi to be specific, and have done so without incident.

    The only Costco I have been asked to leave is in Murray, with TJ and Travis.

    Never been hassled at any Walmart. :P
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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