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Thread: Concealed Carry Without A Permit

  1. #1
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    Maybe this topic has already been discussed here before. Maybe not.

    I just want to make sure I understand the Washington laws perfectly.

    The way I read RCW 9.41.050 and its ever-important exceptions in RCW 9.41.060 it is perfectly legal to carry a concealed pistol as long as it is unloaded (correct?) In fact RCW 9.41.060 (9) specifically requires that an UNloaded pistol must be carried concealed. It is against the law to carry an UNloaded pistol openly (correct?)

    Based on these facts...

    I should be perfectly within my rights to carry an UNloaded semiautomatic pistol in one pocket of my overcoat and carry the loaded magazine for it in a different pocket (or in my hand for that matter...correct?) If this is true, then it is possible to stay 100% legal and yet be able to produce a loaded pistol in about two seconds time if it's needed (right?)

    Please correct me if I have read the Washington laws incorrectly.

    In my opinion the whole concealed carry permit conecpt is nothing more than a scam to con legal gun owners into registering their pistols (for collection at a later date.)

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    (1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.



    dont care if its loaded or not still a pistol

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    Here is a better question... Why would you rather carry an UNLOADED concealed firearm then a loaded visible one?

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    Regular Member j2l3's Avatar
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    and a lot of CPL holders don't own guns... not sure why. There is no gun registration with issuance of a CPL. It's a state money grab is all it is.
    CZ 75B 9mm, Ruger P94 .40 S&W, Bersa Thunder .380, AR-15 Homebuild

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    As far as I know, you may not carry a pistol concealed without a permit (loaded or unloaded) without a permit,except as noted in WA RCW 9.41.060.

    9.41.060: "The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 shall not apply to:",basically says that you may carry a pistol (concealed or not, loaded or not) if you are: (these are lamens terms)

    1. LEO

    2. Military

    3.Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed pistol; (fed?)

    4. Gumsmith or the like, while conducting business

    5. FFL holder

    6. member of a gun club, going DIRECTYto or from target practice

    7. member of a gun club, going DIRECTLY to or from a show

    8. doing something outdoors, hunting, fishing, etc.; or traveling DIRECTLY to or from said activities

    9.any person, carrying an unloaded pistol in a case

    10. retired LEO, as long as you've not been found mentally ill or insane.


    ETA: #9 says, i believe, that you MAY carry an UNloaded pistol in an opaque (not see through) case, not that it MUSTbe in an opaque case.
    I am the person responsible for myself, my wife and my son. I take that VERY seriously.

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    But, look at RCW 9.41.060 (especially #9.) I think that a coat pocket is " closed opaque case or secure wrapper" especially if it's zipped or buttoned shut.

    RCW 9.41.060Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.
    The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 shall not apply to:

    (1) Marshals, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens or their deputies, or other law enforcement officers of this state or another state;

    (2) Members of the armed forces of the United States or of the national guard or organized reserves, when on duty;

    (3) Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed pistol;

    (4) Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of the person, if possessing, using, or carrying a pistol in the usual or ordinary course of the business;

    (5) Regularly enrolled members of any organization duly authorized to purchase or receive pistols from the United States or from this state;

    (6) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of target shooting, when those members are at or are going to or from their places of target practice;

    (7) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of modern and antique firearm collecting, when those members are at or are going to or from their collector's gun shows and exhibits;

    (8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;

    (9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper; or

    (10) Law enforcement officers retired for service or physical disabilities, except for those law enforcement officers retired because of mental or stress-related disabilities. This subsection applies only to a retired officer who has: (a) Obtained documentation from a law enforcement agency within Washington state from which he or she retired that is signed by the agency's chief law enforcement officer and that states that the retired officer was retired for service or physical disability; and (b) not been convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity of a crime making him or her ineligible for a concealed pistol license.


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    j2l3 wrote:
    and a lot of CPL holders don't own guns... not sure why. There is no gun registration with issuance of a CPL. It's a state money grab is all it is.
    Because RCW 9.41.050 plainly states that you cannot carry a loaded pistol in a vehicle without a concealed carry permit. I want to carry a pistol while I'm driving, and I don't want to pay for the "privilege" to do it.

    Read closely RCW 9.41.060 (9) and see if that exception doesn't apply to carrying an unloaded pistol in a vehicle (as in my coat pocket.) I would LOVE to hear a lawyer's opinion about this. Even better I would love it in writing so I can tape it up in the driver's side rear window of my car so that an uninformed peace officer can see it.

    This appears to be THE BIG LOOPHOLE in the entire concealed weapons permit-to-carry a pistol in your car licensing scam.

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    I understand that you could potentially have it in a pocket unloaded, I don't think that it would hold up in court. You're probably better off spending the $55.25 and getting a CPL, rather than the thousands on a defense attorney cuz he/she'll never find a judge in this statethat agrees that a coat pocket is "secure".

    Think about this, if you did have to draw your pistol and shot someone or something, do you think that a LEO arriving on scene 10-15 minutes later would believe that you didn't have it loaded already, especially if the bullet catcher is still alive to testify?
    I am the person responsible for myself, my wife and my son. I take that VERY seriously.

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    tyguy808 wrote:
    I understand that you could potentially have it in a pocket unloaded, I don't think that it would hold up in court. You're probably better off spending the $55.25 and getting a CPL, rather than the thousands on a defense attorney cuz he/she'll never find a judge in this statethat agrees that a coat pocket is "secure".

    Think about this, if you did have to draw your pistol and shot someone or something, do you think that a LEO arriving on scene 10-15 minutes later would believe that you didn't have it loaded already, especially if the bullet catcher is still alive to testify?
    So, once again, the law (the written statute) is being prostituted by corrupt judges.

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    Since you have no CPL, the law says that you CANNOT carry a LOADED pistol in a vehicle and that YOU (no CPL holder) cannot carry a pistol concealed unless (RCW 9.41.060 circumstances).

    What you can do in your particular case is OC your pistol, drop the clip and clear the chamber BEFORE you enter your vehicle. Then when you get where you're going; AFTER you get out just insert clip, re-chamber a round (if you're that type of OC'er, nothing wrong with that) and holster your rig. Also, there is no mention in this state of how for ammunition has to be from that weapon, like Illinois' "Six Seconds to Safety" law, you can just drop the clip into your console, cup holderor other convenient location. Your weapon is nearby and easy to access and load, should you ever need it.

    Carry on!

    I am the person responsible for myself, my wife and my son. I take that VERY seriously.

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    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/33305.html

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/32766.html

    I speak from recent experience. Iwas asking these very same questions a couple weeks ago. Good guys here, gave me all the info I needed to answer my questions. I neversaid"Welcome Aboard" to you.Well, <<< like that last one said!



    I am the person responsible for myself, my wife and my son. I take that VERY seriously.

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    pistolero57 wrote:
    j2l3 wrote:
    and a lot of CPL holders don't own guns... not sure why. There is no gun registration with issuance of a CPL. It's a state money grab is all it is.
    Because RCW 9.41.050 plainly states that you cannot carry a loaded pistol in a vehicle without a concealed carry permit. I want to carry a pistol while I'm driving, and I don't want to pay for the "privilege" to do it.

    Read closely RCW 9.41.060 (9) and see if that exception doesn't apply to carrying an unloaded pistol in a vehicle (as in my coat pocket.) I would LOVE to hear a lawyer's opinion about this. Even better I would love it in writing so I can tape it up in the driver's side rear window of my car so that an uninformed peace officer can see it.

    This appears to be THE BIG LOOPHOLE in the entire concealed weapons permit-to-carry a pistol in your car licensing scam.
    I understand what you are saying, but it has nothing to do with my comment about many CPL holders NOT OWNING guns.
    CZ 75B 9mm, Ruger P94 .40 S&W, Bersa Thunder .380, AR-15 Homebuild

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    j2l3 wrote:
    pistolero57 wrote:
    j2l3 wrote:
    and a lot of CPL holders don't own guns... not sure why. There is no gun registration with issuance of a CPL. It's a state money grab is all it is.
    Because RCW 9.41.050 plainly states that you cannot carry a loaded pistol in a vehicle without a concealed carry permit. I want to carry a pistol while I'm driving, and I don't want to pay for the "privilege" to do it.

    Read closely RCW 9.41.060 (9) and see if that exception doesn't apply to carrying an unloaded pistol in a vehicle (as in my coat pocket.) I would LOVE to hear a lawyer's opinion about this. Even better I would love it in writing so I can tape it up in the driver's side rear window of my car so that an uninformed peace officer can see it.

    This appears to be THE BIG LOOPHOLE in the entire concealed weapons permit-to-carry a pistol in your car licensing scam.
    I understand what you are saying, but it has nothing to do with my comment about many CPL holders NOT OWNING guns.
    If they decide they want to buy one, they don't want the waiting period? They have friends with guns and don't want to inadvertently get caught as a passenger in a vehicle with a loaded gun, say if the friend runs into 7-11 but leaves gun in glove box?

    I could think of reasons.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    I don't think some lawyer's interpretation posted on the window of your car is going to protect you from the most likely outcome in your little scenario. I also think you will have a pretty hard time finding a lawyer to agree with your interpretation, much less put it in writing. Even if you do, it really doesn't matter as it is going to be a judge who makes the decision, one that most likely isn't going to go your way. By the time that decision is made, you are probably going to have spent a lot of money for that unfavorable decision and it will probably come with another bill attached as well.

    Common sense, legislative intent, etc. "...a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol." is really pretty self-explanatory. A jacket is not "...a closed opaque case or secure wrapper", it is clothing. If it could be considered a case or wrapper, then why wouldn't your pant's pocket be considered one as well? If it could be considered as a case or wrapper don't you think someone would have tried that excuse before?

    I am not a lawyer (and sounds like you sure aren't either), but I think in this case it isn't the judges perverting the law, it is someone trying to ridiculously split hairs and redefine common, every day terms to fit some misguided attempt to rationalize illegal and or stupid behavior.



    Eight posts and and a member for one whole day... Maybe you should just lurk for a while.


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    pistolero57 wrote:
    ...In my opinion the whole concealed carry permit conecpt is nothing more than a scam to con legal gun owners into registering their pistols (for collection at a later date.)
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall having to register any weapon to be approved for my CPL.
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -John Stuart Mill

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    pistolero57 wrote:
    In my opinion the whole concealed carry permit conecpt is nothing more than a scam to con legal gun owners into registering their pistols (for collection at a later date.)
    Everyone is entitled to their opinions, even the wrong ones.

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    You obviously (the OP) seem to have thought this through and aren't going to budge. By all means then carry anyway you want to and break the law. If you get caught, you can debate it with the judge all you want and see what his final verdict is. We are always looking for test cases to see how far the law can be pushed!

    Edited to add further sarcasm.

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    G27 wrote:
    You obviously (the OP) seem to have thought this through and aren't going to budge. By all means then carry anyway you want to and break the law. If you get caught, you can debate it with the judge all you want and see what his final verdict is. We are always looking for test cases to see how far the law can be pushed!

    Edited to add further sarcasm.
    He evidently has more money than the rest of us if he is willing to challenge that interpretation. I will be willing to bet most any amount that this will take the State Supreme Court to decide in the OP's favor. I don't know a lot about Washington laws but considering a coat pocket an enclosed case for purposes of carrying a gun is pushing it much further than about any thing else I have seen discussed on here. :what:

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    Just recognize the OP for what he is...He is an ANTI trying to plant an idea that would cause us all problems of major size.

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    Trigger Dr wrote:
    Just recognize the OP for what he is...He is an ANTI trying to plant an idea that would cause us all problems of major size.

    Dang, and here I was thinking I was helping someone out, (no sarcasm), damn ANTI's!!!

    I am the person responsible for myself, my wife and my son. I take that VERY seriously.

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    What's an "OP?" Old person?

    I'm not an ANTI. I moved here from Arizona 16 years ago. I lived there for almost 20 years. In Arizona I wore a loaded .357 magor 9 mm into the store more than once, and people usually didn't even look twice. It's normal down there.

    I haven't done much with guns in this state. My ex kept my SKS. (But, I still had the 7.62 x 39mm ammo - hah hah.) I had to start all over. Now I have Ruger GP100 in .357 mag. ANTI! I'm anti idiots making stupid laws.

    I had to ask because I have looked at RCW 9.41.050 and 9.41.060 over and over and it looks like those two work against each other. But, you're right. The written laws, no matter how clear they may seem to be, are open to "interpretation" (or perversion) by judges and lawyers looking to undo what the legislature has done.

    I've never even tried to get a concealed carry permit. I just assumed that they would ask you what sort of pistol you have. Well, they won't do that. They'll just "know" (or think) that you have one when times get tough and they come knocking at your door asking for the pistol that you may, or may not, actually own. When they get done cutting open all of your leather furniture and dumping all of your cupboards and drawers out on the floor, then maybe they'll believe you when you tell them you don't own a pistol (even though you bought a concealed carry permit.) Of course you'll be smiling as they drive away because you buried the pistol in a watertight cache a week ago along with 5,000 rounds of ammo. (Great little story, huh?)

    So, it appears that the best bet is to pull the car clear off of the road, get out and walk 50 feet away from it before facing off with anybody dumb enough to start a fight.

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    Calm down newbie-

    OP is original post. And if you are indeed who you say you are on position, thats great. We have alot of ANTI's that cruise this site looking to cause hate and discontent in the ranks. You can browse nearly all the threads here and find an ANTI searching for a fight.

    I would just say to you that its far easier to get a CPL than to try to duke it out in court. I would also mention that you need not be fifty feet from your rig to shoot, not 50 inches, not even 50 centimeters. I was simply trying to give you an alternative to getting a CPL. I pop the clip outeverytime I get out because I'm STILL waiting on my CPL.

    They (LEO/Gov't) never asked any questions when I applied for my CPL, never asked if I own a gun. They never even asked why I wanted a CPL. They can't come search your home JUST because you are a CPL holder, there's absolutely no reason to go bury your guns.

    -tyguy808


    ETA: A very wise man once told me the America has three precious metals: gold, silver and LEAD. He also told me that if they (gov't) ever came to take his guns that he'd be giving them the bullets first.

    I am the person responsible for myself, my wife and my son. I take that VERY seriously.

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    pistolero57 wrote:
    I've never even tried to get a concealed carry permit. I just assumed that they would ask you what sort of pistol you have. Well, they won't do that. They'll just "know" (or think) that you have one when times get tough and they come knocking at your door asking for the pistol that you may, or may not, actually own. When they get done cutting open all of your leather furniture and dumping all of your cupboards and drawers out on the floor, then maybe they'll believe you when you tell them you don't own a pistol (even though you bought a concealed carry permit.) Of course you'll be smiling as they drive away because you buried the pistol in a watertight cache a week ago along with 5,000 rounds of ammo. (Great little story, huh?)
    Safeway and Albertson's both have foil on sale this week. Stock up!

    http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

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    pistolero57 wrote:
    What's an "OP?" Old person?

    I'm not an ANTI. I moved here from Arizona 16 years ago. I lived there for almost 20 years. In Arizona I wore a loaded .357 magor 9 mm into the store more than once, and people usually didn't even look twice. It's normal down there.

    I haven't done much with guns in this state. My ex kept my SKS. (But, I still had the 7.62 x 39mm ammo - hah hah.) I had to start all over. Now I have Ruger GP100 in .357 mag. ANTI! I'm anti idiots making stupid laws.

    I had to ask because I have looked at RCW 9.41.050 and 9.41.060 over and over and it looks like those two work against each other. But, you're right. The written laws, no matter how clear they may seem to be, are open to "interpretation" (or perversion) by judges and lawyers looking to undo what the legislature has done.

    I've never even tried to get a concealed carry permit. I just assumed that they would ask you what sort of pistol you have. Well, they won't do that. They'll just "know" (or think) that you have one when times get tough and they come knocking at your door asking for the pistol that you may, or may not, actually own. When they get done cutting open all of your leather furniture and dumping all of your cupboards and drawers out on the floor, then maybe they'll believe you when you tell them you don't own a pistol (even though you bought a concealed carry permit.) Of course you'll be smiling as they drive away because you buried the pistol in a watertight cache a week ago along with 5,000 rounds of ammo. (Great little story, huh?)

    So, it appears that the best bet is to pull the car clear off of the road, get out and walk 50 feet away from it before facing off with anybody dumb enough to start a fight.
    Print off the CPL form. Fill it out. Go to LESA in Tacoma, WA. Stand in line. Go to the counter and give the lady your drivers license, CPL application, and cash/check. Get your prints done, electronically. Wait 2 weeks. Learn to be a little less paranoid about the government taking your guns.

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    911Boss wrote:
    pistolero57 wrote:
    I've never even tried to get a concealed carry permit. I just assumed that they would ask you what sort of pistol you have. Well, they won't do that. They'll just "know" (or think) that you have one when times get tough and they come knocking at your door asking for the pistol that you may, or may not, actually own. When they get done cutting open all of your leather furniture and dumping all of your cupboards and drawers out on the floor, then maybe they'll believe you when you tell them you don't own a pistol (even though you bought a concealed carry permit.) Of course you'll be smiling as they drive away because you buried the pistol in a watertight cache a week ago along with 5,000 rounds of ammo. (Great little story, huh?)
    Safeway and Albertson's both have foil on sale this week. Stock up!

    http://zapatopi.net/afdb/



    There is a problem in your link that I have fixed I think. However I cannot stress the importance of this statement on that site. Also I have invested heavily in the Aluminum industry as the importance will become very clear shortly.

    The absolute best afbd is made from the metals recovered from downed UFO's but the military keeps that stuff under tight control so unless you can get some before the military finds them you are out of luck.
    BEWARE OF COMMERCIAL AFDBS: Since you should trust no one, always construct your AFDB yourself to avoid the risk of subversion and mental enslavement. Sometimes, AFDBs will be sold on places like eBay. Do not purchase these pre-made AFDBs, even if the seller seems trustworthy. They may contain backdoors, pinholes, integrated psychotronic circuitry or other methods that actually promote mind control.


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