Concealed Carry Without A Permit

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What's an "OP?" Old person?

I'm not an ANTI. I moved here from Arizona 16 years ago. I lived there for almost 20 years. In Arizona I wore a loaded .357 magor 9 mm into the store more than once, and people usually didn't even look twice. It's normal down there.

I haven't done much with guns in this state. My ex kept my SKS. (But, I still had the 7.62 x 39mm ammo - hah hah.) I had to start all over. Now I have Ruger GP100 in .357 mag. ANTI! I'm anti idiots making stupid laws.

I had to ask because I have looked at RCW 9.41.050 and 9.41.060 over and over and it looks like those two work against each other. But, you're right. The written laws, no matter how clear they may seem to be, are open to "interpretation" (or perversion) by judges and lawyers looking to undo what the legislature has done.

I've never even tried to get a concealed carry permit. I just assumed that they would ask you what sort of pistol you have. Well, they won't do that. They'll just "know" (or think) that you have one when times get tough and they come knocking at your door asking for the pistol that you may, or may not, actually own. When they get done cutting open all of your leather furniture and dumping all of your cupboards and drawers out on the floor, then maybe they'll believe you when you tell them you don't own a pistol (even though you bought a concealed carry permit.) Of course you'll be smiling as they drive away because you buried the pistol in a watertight cache a week ago along with 5,000 rounds of ammo. (Great little story, huh?)

So, it appears that the best bet is to pull the car clear off of the road, get out and walk 50 feet away from it before facing off with anybody dumb enough to start a fight.

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Calm down newbie-

OP is original post. And if you are indeed who you say you are on position, thats great. We have alot of ANTI's that cruise this site looking to cause hate and discontent in the ranks. You can browse nearly all the threads here and find an ANTI searching for a fight.

I would just say to you that its far easier to get a CPL than to try to duke it out in court. I would also mention that you need not be fifty feet from your rig to shoot, not 50 inches, not even 50 centimeters. I was simply trying to give you an alternative to getting a CPL. I pop the clip outeverytime I get out because I'm STILL waiting on my CPL.

They (LEO/Gov't) never asked any questions when I applied for my CPL, never asked if I own a gun. They never even asked why I wanted a CPL. They can't come search your home JUST because you are a CPL holder, there's absolutely no reason to go bury your guns.

-tyguy808


ETA: A very wise man once told me the America has three precious metals: gold, silver and LEAD. He also told me that if they (gov't) ever came to take his guns that he'd be giving them the bullets first.

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pistolero57 wrote:

I've never even tried to get a concealed carry permit. I just assumed that they would ask you what sort of pistol you have. Well, they won't do that. They'll just "know" (or think) that you have one when times get tough and they come knocking at your door asking for the pistol that you may, or may not, actually own. When they get done cutting open all of your leather furniture and dumping all of your cupboards and drawers out on the floor, then maybe they'll believe you when you tell them you don't own a pistol (even though you bought a concealed carry permit.) Of course you'll be smiling as they drive away because you buried the pistol in a watertight cache a week ago along with 5,000 rounds of ammo. (Great little story, huh?)

Click to expand...

Safeway and Albertson's both have foil on sale this week. Stock up!

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

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pistolero57 wrote:

What's an "OP?" Old person?

I'm not an ANTI. I moved here from Arizona 16 years ago. I lived there for almost 20 years. In Arizona I wore a loaded .357 magor 9 mm into the store more than once, and people usually didn't even look twice. It's normal down there.

I haven't done much with guns in this state. My ex kept my SKS. (But, I still had the 7.62 x 39mm ammo - hah hah.) I had to start all over. Now I have Ruger GP100 in .357 mag. ANTI! I'm anti idiots making stupid laws.

I had to ask because I have looked at RCW 9.41.050 and 9.41.060 over and over and it looks like those two work against each other. But, you're right. The written laws, no matter how clear they may seem to be, are open to "interpretation" (or perversion) by judges and lawyers looking to undo what the legislature has done.

I've never even tried to get a concealed carry permit. I just assumed that they would ask you what sort of pistol you have. Well, they won't do that. They'll just "know" (or think) that you have one when times get tough and they come knocking at your door asking for the pistol that you may, or may not, actually own. When they get done cutting open all of your leather furniture and dumping all of your cupboards and drawers out on the floor, then maybe they'll believe you when you tell them you don't own a pistol (even though you bought a concealed carry permit.) Of course you'll be smiling as they drive away because you buried the pistol in a watertight cache a week ago along with 5,000 rounds of ammo. (Great little story, huh?)

So, it appears that the best bet is to pull the car clear off of the road, get out and walk 50 feet away from it before facing off with anybody dumb enough to start a fight.

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Print off the CPL form. Fill it out. Go to LESA in Tacoma, WA. Stand in line. Go to the counter and give the lady your drivers license, CPL application, and cash/check. Get your prints done, electronically. Wait 2 weeks. Learn to be a little less paranoid about the government taking your guns.

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911Boss wrote:

pistolero57 wrote:

I've never even tried to get a concealed carry permit. I just assumed that they would ask you what sort of pistol you have. Well, they won't do that. They'll just "know" (or think) that you have one when times get tough and they come knocking at your door asking for the pistol that you may, or may not, actually own. When they get done cutting open all of your leather furniture and dumping all of your cupboards and drawers out on the floor, then maybe they'll believe you when you tell them you don't own a pistol (even though you bought a concealed carry permit.) Of course you'll be smiling as they drive away because you buried the pistol in a watertight cache a week ago along with 5,000 rounds of ammo. (Great little story, huh?)

Click to expand...

Safeway and Albertson's both have foil on sale this week. Stock up!

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

Click to expand...

There is a problem in your link that I have fixed I think. However I cannot stress the importance of this statement on that site. Also I have invested heavily in the Aluminum industry as the importance will become very clear shortly.

The absolute best afbd is made from the metals recovered from downed UFO's but the military keeps that stuff under tight control so unless you can get some before the military finds them you are out of luck.

BEWARE OF COMMERCIAL AFDBS: Since you should trust no one, always construct your AFDB yourself to avoid the risk of subversion and mental enslavement. Sometimes, AFDBs will be sold on places like eBay. Do not purchase these pre-made AFDBs, even if the seller seems trustworthy. They may contain backdoors, pinholes, integrated psychotronic circuitry or other methods that actually promote mind control.

Click to expand...

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And I quote Art Bell:

"I want to know why I want to know why I want to know WHY you call yourself JC!"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Disciples_Of_JC/

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Interesting (to me) that someone would state that he thinks requiring purchase of a license to carry a concealed pistol is de facto gun registration and will eventually lead to government's confiscation of our legally-owned firearms.

Washingtonis THEORIGINAL shall-issue state. We require absolutely no proof of competence with handguns and no training at all in order to apply for a CPL (one of ONLY 4 STATES in that regard --even though some of us may not believethat's necessarily a good thing), and our licensing fee (for a fairly long term, 5 years) is pretty cheap ($60 for original CPL, $35 for renewals) is on the low end compared to the other 40-some shall-issue states.

Whether or not you believe that licensing fees constitute any sort of "infringement" on your 2A rights, if you consider our state relative to at least 47 of the other 49 (let's exclude Alaska and Vermont for now), we have little to complain about.

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I agree Bo, our state is pretty nice for issuance of a CPL. I keep hearing $60, I only paid $55.25, maybe you're rounding up (or overpaying).

ETA: Dang, I'm really having a grammar problem today. Hope it gets better tomorrow!

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PT111 wrote:

911Boss wrote:

pistolero57 wrote:

I've never even tried to get a concealed carry permit. I just assumed that they would ask you what sort of pistol you have. Well, they won't do that. They'll just "know" (or think) that you have one when times get tough and they come knocking at your door asking for the pistol that you may, or may not, actually own. When they get done cutting open all of your leather furniture and dumping all of your cupboards and drawers out on the floor, then maybe they'll believe you when you tell them you don't own a pistol (even though you bought a concealed carry permit.) Of course you'll be smiling as they drive away because you buried the pistol in a watertight cache a week ago along with 5,000 rounds of ammo. (Great little story, huh?)

Click to expand...

Safeway and Albertson's both have foil on sale this week. Stock up!

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

Click to expand...

There is a problem in your link that I have fixed I think. However I cannot stress the importance of this statement on that site. Also I have invested heavily in the Aluminum industry as the importance will become very clear shortly.

The absolute best afbd is made from the metals recovered from downed UFO's but the military keeps that stuff under tight control so unless you can get some before the military finds them you are out of luck.

BEWARE OF COMMERCIAL AFDBS: Since you should trust no one, always construct your AFDB yourself to avoid the risk of subversion and mental enslavement. Sometimes, AFDBs will be sold on places like eBay. Do not purchase these pre-made AFDBs, even if the seller seems trustworthy. They may contain backdoors, pinholes, integrated psychotronic circuitry or other methods that actually promote mind control.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

To be paranoid there has to be no credible threat, and ne precedent. Look around the world at Great Britain and Australia and then tell me that governments don't change their minds about whether or not to allow their citizens to own firearms. We have the Second Amendment. That's great for as long as martial law isn't declared. By the way I thought this was an open carry forum. I now see that it's actually a open carrry-with-a-government issued concealed carry permit forum. It's people who say they believe in open carry but who do not have the balls to do so without first obtaining a concealed carry permit. (Talk about paranoia!) I think I'll spend my time elsewhere, with people who do what they believe without first hedging their bets.

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pistolero57 wrote: By the way I thought this was an open carry forum. I now see that it's actually a open carrry-with-a-government issued concealed carry permit forum. It's people who say they believe in open carry but who do not have the balls to do so without first obtaining a concealed carry permit. (Talk about paranoia!) I think I'll spend my time elsewhere, with people who do what they believe without first hedging their bets.



my rebuttal: So, why the hell are you so damn concerned about CC if you're onan OC forum.BTW, I have no CPL and I OC everywhere!

SAYONARA! Pistolero57

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I know of no judge that would construe a zippered coat pocket to be a secure case/opaque wrapper. You definitely do not want to carry assuming it is as I fear all you are doing is asking for trouble.

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PT111 wrote:

G27 wrote:

You obviously (the OP) seem to have thought this through and aren't going to budge. By all means then carry anyway you want to and break the law. If you get caught, you can debate it with the judge all you want and see what his final verdict is. We are always looking for test cases to see how far the law can be pushed! :banghead:

Edited to add further sarcasm.

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He evidently has more money than the rest of us if he is willing to challenge that interpretation. I will be willing to bet most any amount that this will take the State Supreme Court to decide in the OP's favor. I don't know a lot about Washington laws but considering a coat pocket an enclosed case for purposes of carrying a gun is pushing it much further than about any thing else I have seen discussed on here. :what:

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Both are wrong, with more sarcasm yet. There is NO interpretation.

ITs beyond me why pro-gunners here ignore the law and substute their own opinions, especially when they limit their own rights/positions.

RCW 7.80.120Monetary penalties — Restitution.
(1) A person found to have committed a civil infraction shall be assessed a monetary penalty.

(a) The maximum penalty and the default amount for a class 1 civil infraction shall be two hundred fifty dollars, not including statutory assessments, except for an infraction of state law involving potentially dangerous litter as specified in RCW 70.93.060(4) and an infraction of state law involving violent video or computer games under RCW 9.91.180, in which case the maximum penalty and default amount is five hundred dollars;

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The LAW levies a $250 monetary fine for CCW w/o permit. Can't be arrested for it. No court date. Judge just wants the money.

Carrying w/o is a Class 1 civil infraction, its a GLORIFIED LITTERING TICKET. You can't be arrested for it unless you cannot produce ID.

These loopholes are left in law by a wise Legislature. Use them.

IT'S CONCEALED, how will anyone know? They must see it, then call LEO, then, then... Then they have to KNOW you DONT have a CWP.

I can show that RCW allows CC without a permit anywhere except restricted areas. Care to debate it, anyone? I realize its not exactly on-topic on a OC bbs but I can prove it, and I think it would be good to put it to the Legislature.

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Are you a lawyer? I am not. If you are also not a lawyer, nor are most of us, then I see no value in debating point of law unless you have case law you can cite.

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Capn Camo wrote:

Carrying w/o is a Class 1 civil infraction, its a GLORIFIED LITTERING TICKET. You can't be arrested for it unless you cannot produce ID.

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RCW 9.41.050
Carrying firearms.

(1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.

RCW 9.41.810
Penalty.

Any violation of any provision of this chapter, except as otherwise provided, shall be a misdemeanor and punishable accordingly.

RCW 9.92.030
Punishment of misdemeanor when not fixed by statute.

Every person convicted of a misdemeanor for which no punishment is prescribed by any statute in force at the time of conviction and sentence, shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a maximum term fixed by the court of not more than ninety days, or by a fine in an amount fixed by the court of not more than one thousand dollars or both such imprisonment and fine.

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IANAL, but I read this a little differently. 9.41.050 states that a violation of subsection (1)(B) , not having your CPL in your possesion when required by law,is a civil infraction.

Subsection (1)(A), theprohibition againstcarrying concealed without a license, does not specify a penalty, which puts it under 9.41.810 and 9.92.030, classifying it as a misdemeanor with a maximum penalty of 90 days and $1000.

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Capn Camo wrote:

RCW 7.80.120Monetary penalties — Restitution.
(1) A person found to have committed a civil infraction shall be assessed a monetary penalty.

(a) The maximum penalty and the default amount for a class 1 civil infraction shall be two hundred fifty dollars, not including statutory assessments, except for an infraction of state law involving potentially dangerous litter as specified in RCW 70.93.060(4) and an infraction of state law involving violent video or computer games under RCW 9.91.180, in which case the maximum penalty and default amount is five hundred dollars;

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The LAW levies a $250 monetary fine for CCW w/o permit. Can't be arrested for it. No court date. Judge just wants the money.

Carrying w/o is a Class 1 civil infraction, its a GLORIFIED LITTERING TICKET. You can't be arrested for it unless you cannot produce ID.

These loopholes are left in law by a wise Legislature. Use them.

IT'S CONCEALED, how will anyone know? They must see it, then call LEO, then, then... Then they have to KNOW you DONT have a CWP.

I can show that RCW allows CC without a permit anywhere except restricted areas. Care to debate it, anyone? I realize its not exactly on-topic on a OC bbs but I can prove it, and I think it would be good to put it to the Legislature.

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That is the process IF you have a valid CPL but don't have it with you. If you have NO CPL at all, then you are looking at criminal charges, and yes you certainly can be arrested and jailed for it.

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The original topic is "Concealed Carry Without A Permit" and the poster felt that RCW 9.41.050 and 9.41.060 offset each other.

That is incorrect as RCW 9.41.050 Carrying firearms sets the standards and RCW 9.41.060 are the Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.

RCW 9.41.060 Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.

The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 shall not apply to:

(1) Marshals, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens or their deputies, or other law enforcement officers of this state or another state;

(2) Members of the armed forces of the United States or of the national guard or organized reserves, when on duty;

(3) Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed pistol;

(4) Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of the person, if possessing, using, or carrying a pistol in the usual or ordinary course of the business;

(5) Regularly enrolled members of any organization duly authorized to purchase or receive pistols from the United States or from this state;

(6) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of target shooting, when those members are at or are going to or from their places of target practice;

(7) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of modern and antique firearm collecting, when those members are at or are going to or from their collector's gun shows and exhibits;

(8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;

(9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper; or

(10) Law enforcement officers retired for service or physical disabilities, except for those law enforcement officers retired because of mental or stress-related disabilities. This subsection applies only to a retired officer who has: (a) Obtained documentation from a law enforcement agency within Washington state from which he or she retired that is signed by the agency's chief law enforcement officer and that states that the retired officer was retired for service or physical disability; and (b) not been convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity of a crime making him or her ineligible for a concealed pistol license.

This does not mean you can carry anywhere concealed only when it fulfills the criteria as stated above.

There are other statements about blurring the lines of being legal or not and how will they know if you are carrying concealed or not, its concealed, isn't this about legal carry?

If one was to be caught in an area carrying concealed illegally then it would be a misdemeanor, and it is possible to be find out as we cannot control all circumstances that occur around us.

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This is interesting, it is posted on Wikipedia.

'Washington State law also carves exemptions into state law regarding Concealed Pistol Licenses. Perhaps the most interesting is RCW 9.41.060, section 8: "Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;". This little known law essentially allows vehicle and concealed carry WITHOUT a CPL as normally required in 9.41.050 as long as you meet the provisions of that section.'

Hiking is a pretty big loophole, I can hike in just about any open place in the state.

Thoughts?

(by the way, I have had a CPL for over a decade)

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i always carry concealed without a cpl, this is my thought process:
if its concealed properly noone will see it so no cop will ask to see my cpl, if i have to draw or use the gun i'll just say it was being open carried at the time, its very far fetched that there will be a witness who will be able to say with certainty that it was a concealed handgun. Oh and you want to know whats the big deal get a cpl to which i reply i just dont feel like it give me a good reason and i might

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What is up with all the goofballs I keep seeing lately?

OP, the laws may suck but they are still currently in effect and trying to finagle your way around something is just stupid and will end with you in jail. Operate within the law or you will eventually suffer the consequences.

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And speaking specifically to eric55, the regulars (not to mention the site owners!) don't look very kindly on the advocacy of illegal behavior.