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Thread: Is Philp Van Cleave an Extremist?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    According to Elita Habtu, a survivor of Cho's murder spree, he is:


    Concealed carry permits are too easily obtained


    Like the Editorial Board of the Collegiate Times, I was deeply disturbed when the SCCC invited Eric Thompson to Tech shortly after the one-year anniversary of the shootings. The online gun dealer sold guns and accessories to the Tech shooter, to the Northern Illinois University shooter, and to George Sodini, the aforementioned concealed carry permit holder and mass murderer.

    SCCC’s featured speaker on Monday night, Philip Van Cleave of the Virginia Citizens’ Defense League (VCDL), is equally such an extremist on the gun issue. Van Cleave and the VCDL have pushed to force guns to be allowed everywhere, including in government buildings, restaurants where alcohol is served, and now on school campuses. At a recent speech at Liberty University, Van Cleave noted with pride: “At the end of the day, I don’t think there should be restrictions of firearms. Period.”

    That means no background checks to help prevent dangerous individuals, like the Virginia Tech and NIU shooters, from wreaking havoc with easily obtained handguns and assault weapons. SCCC and VCDL might be content to settle matters by engaging in shootouts with disturbed individuals who have gained easy access to firearms, but the rest of us deserve more thoughtful, practical solutions on how to prevent violence on America’s college campuses.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    If Mr. Van Cleave is an "extremist", Then words to describe me and hundreds of other people I know cannot be printed here in polite company. These words would be so full of "colorful metaphors" and descriptive adjectives they would make even a seasoned sailor blush.

    The REAL extremists are the ones that STILL want to deny other human beings the God-Given RIGHT to protect themselves and their families.

    These people piss me off beyond comprehension. Some of them are so far "out of whack"they would willingly give up their own lives and those of others to protect criminals and various other scumbags.

    SimplyfugginAMAZING... It truly is...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Phillip left a comment on that site.

    Lots of tin foil hat comments there.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    Glock27Bill wrote:
    Phillip left a comment on that site.

    Lots of tin foil hat comments there.
    Those 'comments' are mostly from Anonymous.

    Seems obsessed, doesn't he?

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    Never met the man; but have read his words, updates, etc ... have nodded my head plenty, rarely shaking in contradiction....

    Maybe there should be a "Stockholm Syndrome" seminar there as well....?

    Unsure how much ofa "victim" the author of the article may have been - there are all types - but most "victims" that I know or have meet - tend to be much more centered in not being a victim again; the only differences that I have notice is that some "still" want to "depend" on the others to protect them - rather than taking to task their own protection and survival (easier I guess to write editorials, make speeches, etc - about limiting the "evil-doers" ability to get firearms - without pause to how that "blanket-approach" affects those who are law-abiding....), yanno, if we don't agree with "them" we are the extremists.....

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    Our country is in a sad state when people call someone that wants the Constitution and 2nd Ammendment enforced, an extremist!!

    I wish we couldship them off to some island and let them form their sociopathic communist system. I suggest Antarctica.

    After a few yearsthey would be begging to come back to a free country. For now they are simply useful idiots to those who would destroy this country.

    Edited for correct spelling of Antarctica :-)




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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Of course Phil is an extremist. He's also the front-man for a single-issue organization.

    What's amazing is that most of the members of VCDL are also extremists. A good number of them have admitted to voting based solely on the issue of gun rights, regardless of the candidate's political affiliation.

    It's called an ad hominem attack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominemfor those of you who want to learn in depth). The tactic is when you are losing based on facts, logic and rationality you go after the person.If that does not work, the next step is usually a straw man attack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man.

    The difference between the positions of the twoextremist camps (he says, preaching to the choir) is that one side sticks to facts, logic and rationality while the other side relies on hysterics.

    I almost feel sorry for folks like Elita Habtu, but then I remember that they freely chose to behave like they do. If it walks like a duck etc. but you insist it is a zebra, then that's your problem. I learned a long time ago not to buy into the delusions of others - mine are enough for me to worry about.

    stay safe.

    skidmark

    ** Edited to add: Andrew Buyalos wrote a very good counter-point editorial that was published the day afterwards. Read it here: http://www.collegiatetimes.com/stori...ives-takes-few

    stay safe.

    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    Phil is one of the most honorable men I've ever met and it is my honor to have been in his company.
    Bitka Sve Reava!
    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    Repeater wrote:
    According to Elita Habtu, a survivor of Cho's murder spree, he is:
    <snip>

    That means no background checks to help prevent dangerous individuals, like the Virginia Tech and NIU shooters, from wreaking havoc with easily obtained handguns and assault weapons. SCCC and VCDL might be content to settle matters by engaging in shootouts with disturbed individuals who have gained easy access to firearms, but the rest of us deserve more thoughtful, practical solutions on how to prevent violence on America’s college campuses.
    Actually, Elita Habtu is an extremist. She wants to go to great lengths to restrict, if not outright ban, ownership and possession of firearms. The VCDL is the antithesis of extremism because the organization intends to have the unproven, exaggerated legislation repealed from law. The goal of the VCDL is to adhere to and uphold the U.S. and Virginia Constitutions. She'd have a point if the VCDL were pushing for legislation to force everyone to bear arms. That's not what the VCDL wants; it is pro-choice.

    She is naive to think that any amount of paperwork, eg. background checks, forms, laws, would ultimately prevent anyone and everyone from committing violence. The only practical answer to the reality of violence is to take cover and return fire. The MW dictionary specifically states that practical is "not theoretical or ideal." Her words ooze of theory and idealism. The results of a background check are nothing more than a theory. They are not and never could be proof that a person is not and will never become homicidal. What I don't hear coming from these extremists are any thoughtful ideas on how their admittedly failing background checks could be better. They just argue that there should be more of them. I believe that is because there is no practical way to make them better; they're as good as they'll ever be.

    She willingly admitted that George Sodini had a background check and still became a homicidal maniac, but subsequently contradicts herself by proposing more background checks. It's well known that even Cho Seung-Hui went through background checks to purchase his firearms, but in the next paragraph she still praises how mandatory background checks help prevent "havoc." Mandatory background checks have succeeded in creating a false sense of security leading to widespread, voluntary disarmament. To that, I cite the plethora of unarmed people who beg the question "why do you need a gun here?" Anyone who regularly carries, especially openly, has no doubt heard that question more than once.

    She implies that we, the armed citizenry, do not deserve the same as the "rest of [them]?" What does anyone really deserve? The pursuit of life, liberty, property, happiness. We all deserve to pursue those things, but only to the extent to which we do not infringe on anyone else's rightful pursuits. Elita Habtu has the right to refuse to take-up arms. I respect her decision and expect her to respect mine.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    skidmark wrote:
    Of course Phil is an extremist.
    Hell yes, and thank god he is. He stands in front for all of us. We were "lucky" to make Virginia Red this elecdtion. There is still lots of purple and blue out there trying to take away our rights.

    Philip.. you do a great job and I am PROUD to know you and PROUD of the work you do for us and I personally thank you for your service.

    Ed
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Philip is well known to be extreme - extremely knowledgeable, extremely accurate, extremely available, extremely recognized as an expert on the subject of the 2A and RKBA in Va.

    PHILIP VAN CLEAVE FOR PRESIDENT.......Oh that's right, he already is.

    None better, no one more honorable.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Bulldog1967's Avatar
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    Repeater wrote:
    According to Elita Habtu, a survivor of Cho's murder spree, he is:


    That means no background checks to help prevent dangerous individuals, like the Virginia Tech and NIU shooters, from wreaking havoc with easily obtained handguns and assault weapons. SCCC and VCDL might be content to settle matters by engaging in shootouts with disturbed individuals who have gained easy access to firearms, but the rest of us deserve more thoughtful, practical solutions on how to prevent violence on America’s college campuses.
    What a stupid argument.

    Background checks DIDN'T stop Cho.

    Strict "No Gun Zones" ENSURE mass murders like this will CONTINUE to happen.

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    Antarctica is not an option. All nations have agreed not to pollute the last "virgin" continent.

    Shipping those individuals would definitely be considered pollution and the US would be blamed for their transgressions.

    Better yet, ship them to China where they don’t allow gun ownership!

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    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    Reviewed the whole article.

    Nothing she says will make a difference. Simply because she was involved with the VT shooting doesn't give her words any additional merit nor make her "more correct" because of her life experience. She seriously needs to get over herself.

    If anything, this shows the true fear the antis are experiencing with the recent political shift and the distinct possibility of getting some common sense freedoms restored which never should have been taken in the first place.

    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when youre serious and when youre being sarcastic. Abraham Lincoln

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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    People....they only call us extremists because they get a certain reaction out of us and because it convinces their readers to react a certain way. When people call us extremists we must reply but reply in the sense that we are PROUD to be gun rights extremists. In today's society...sadly, some things such as gun rights are sort of "extreme". Harness it. The movement against us is all about the manipulation of language. If we can neutralize their language AND combat them with easily understood factual information....they will be rendered harmless.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Philip is well known to be extreme - extremely knowledgeable, extremely accurate, extremely available, extremely recognized as an expert on the subject of the 2A and RKBA in Va.

    PHILIP VAN CLEAVE FOR PRESIDENT.......Oh that's right, he already is.

    None better, no one more honorable.

    Yata hey
    Actually, I've never seen Philip as extreme. To be honest, he's very receptive to new ideas. As already said, he's a very honorable and intelligent man.

    I've seen him take a moderate approach many times. Calling Philip extreme because he believes in the Constitution, is like calling the Pope extreme because he believes in God.

    I'm a little extreme though, so I won't comment on why some people are allowed to survive when the world would be so much better without them:X

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    I've taken Philip's Utah ccw course, and you couldn't ask for a nicer, more down to earth guy who is also extremely knowledgeable.

    Extreme? Where is that umbrella term coming from?

    VT's also not as anti-gun as one would think. I see a few misinformed articles get into the collegiate times (on-campus paper), but the very next day there is an article which clears all that stuff up; written by well informed students.

    I've also taken my fair share of liberal hokies out to the range and every one has enjoyed themselves.

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    peter nap wrote:
    I'm a little extreme though, so I won't comment on why some people are allowed to survive when the world would be so much better without them:X
    People are "allowed" to survive because we have a free country and they have God given rights too. While there are people that we will strongly disagree with, there is always hope that they will change their view. Some people that are our worst enemy become our best ally when a change of heart occurs. Look at Saul (later Paul who wrote a large part of the new testament) Look at abortion doctors that testified before the supreme court FOR abortion, years later coming to terms and fighting it now. They have the inside scoop and can help the cause.

    God doesn't smite each sinner at their first sin, He allows as much time as is needed to give that person an opportunity to change. It took me 34 years before I accepted His call so I am glad I wasn't smited early.

    Many anti-gun people become pro-gun people after traumatic realization that the police are minutes away when they need help right now. This woman has lived through the traumatic event at VT and luckily survived. The fact that she doesn't change her view on self defense probably simply shows how much she has bought into the lies that are constantly regurgitated by the media etc.

    Yes I agree in ourmind the world would look like a better place without some people. The problem is ourmind can't see the future. We can only fight the good fight and hope for the best.

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    ChinChin wrote:
    Reviewed the whole article.

    Nothing she says will make a difference. Simply because she was involved with the VT shooting doesn't give her words any additional merit nor make her "more correct" because of her life experience. She seriously needs to get over herself.

    If anything, this shows the true fear the antis are experiencing with the recent political shift and the distinct possibility of getting some common sense freedoms restored which never should have been taken in the first place.
    Habtu's attitude seems to be: "I'm a victim of gun violence -- listen to me!"

    Except that's no excuse to be anti-gun, anti self-defense, or anti-freedom.

    A positive role model, in contrast, would be Suzanna Gratia Hupp. As a survivor of the Luby's massacre, instead of being anti-gun, she was just the opposite:



    Death of parents

    On Wednesday, October 16, 1991, Hupp and her parents were having lunch at the Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen. She had left her gun in her car to comply with Texas state law at the time which forbade carrying a concealed weapon. When George Hennard drove his truck into the cafeteria and opened fire on the patrons, Hupp instinctively reached into her purse for her weapon, but it was in her vehicle. Her father, Al Gratia, tried to rush Hennard and was shot in the chest. As the gunman reloaded, Hupp escaped through a broken window and believed that her mother, Ursula Gratia, was behind her. Hennard put a gun to her mother's head as she cradled her mortally wounded husband. Hupp's mother and father were killed along with twenty-one other persons. Hennard also wounded some twenty others. As a survivor of the Luby's massacre, Hupp testified across the country in support of concealed-handgun laws. She said that had there been a second chance to prevent the slaughter, she would have violated the Texas law and carried the handgun inside her purse into the restaurant.

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    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    I certainly hope Phil considers himself an "extremist"! Quoting Barry Goldwater, "....extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.....and.... moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"

    I am described here under my name as an activist member. Perhaps that should be changed to extremist member. Works for me!

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    I find it humorous that after reviewing so many 2A debates and such, we keep hearing, "Well background checks would save the world." Oddly enough they haven't done anything to keep weapons out of someones hands that doesn't care about the law. And for the ones that know they actually DO exist, when they don't work, you hear it being the fault of the guy that sold him the guns. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the government conduct the checks and give the store owner thumbs up or down?

    Also, why do people REFUSE to notice these massacres all happen in Gun Free Zones?!

    It's hopeless.

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    proud_to_serveUSAF wrote:
    ... Also, why do people REFUSE to notice these massacres all happen in Gun Free Zones?! ...
    Because it's an inconvenient truth.

    And neither truth -- nor factual accuracy -- advance their agenda.

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    Regular Member Bubba Ron's Avatar
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    Dutch Uncle wrote:
    I certainly hope Phil considers himself an "extremist"! Quoting Barry Goldwater, "....extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.....and.... moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"

    I am described here under my name as an activist member. Perhaps that should be changed to extremist member. Works for me!
    Works for us too!!!

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    Campaign Veteran kimbercarrier's Avatar
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    Philip Van Cleave is my president. I'm glad he's on our side. His extremism on our side is what has helped us to get our GOD given rights back. Thank you Philip.

    Funny how when they are extreme in their pursuit to disarm us it's just fine.

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    PVC is on Armed American Radio right now, for another 1/2 hour. http://den-a.plr.liquidcompass.net/p...AM&uid=193

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