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Thread: No carry in places of worship

  1. #1
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    I don't know if carry in churches is allowed in any state, but for the sake of argument I'll go with it's not like here in VA. How can the government get away with banning carry on property that they do not own and shouldn't this be some type of deal where seperation between church and state comes into play? J/w how the state can make that a law. Of course... this is the same government that tells us how many rounds we can carry or what types of weapons we can own.

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    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
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    The Government can take your frikken property.... There are a bazillion laws that affect private property. BTW you can carry in Church in Va, 'With good and sufficent reason'
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Are you sure this isn't just church policy?

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    Nothing against church carry here in PA.

    Not that you'd ever catch me in one.

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    I don't think there is anything in TN statutes about carry in churches either. Pretty much left up to the churches, themselves.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    can SOMEONE PLEASE FIND "Separation of Church and State" in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, Articles of Confederation of the Declaration of Independence?

    NO YOU CAN'T because it isn't THERE!!!

    The wording comes from a LETTER written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists and actually means the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what most people think it does! It was later quoted by SCOTUS in 1878 and got pretty out of hand after that...

    Talk about ABUSED statements??? This is the most abused and misused statement in the HISTORY of the United States and it REALLY PISSES ME OFF!

    <rant off>
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    True about the "sufficient reason" lol. It came up in conversation w/ a guy from a church I attended a while back. We were talking about a lot of the guys that deal with the money carry there.

    As far as the "seperation of church and state" part... I didn't know, that's why I was asking. I don't claim to know exactly where or when it originated or why or how it applies. Hence the question of if it would have anything to do with carrying there... Take a breath. It's going to be okay.

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    MSC... I wasn't trying to be a jerk w/ that statement. Didn't mean to get you heated. lol

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    can SOMEONE PLEASE FIND "Separation of Church and State" in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, Articles of Confederation of the Declaration of Independence?

    NO YOU CAN'T because it isn't THERE!!!

    The wording comes from a LETTER written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists and actually means the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what most people think it does! It was later quoted by SCOTUS in 1878 and got pretty out of hand after that...

    Talk about ABUSED statements??? This is the most abused and misused statement in the HISTORY of the United States and it REALLY PISSES ME OFF!

    <rant off>
    It would be interesting to debate which has done more damage to the country, the mythical "Separation of Church and State", or the court's constant mis-interpretation and wholesale abuse of the Commerce Clause.

    TFred


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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    the bill of rights, ratified dec. 15, 1791. the 1st 10 amendments to the constitution. #1 congress shall make no law respecting an establishment religion, or prohibiting the free excercise thereof...

    these are the words that seem to create the "seperation of church and state".

    washington state law does not prohibit carrying into a church, its private property and they can set thier own rules.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    No. The wall between church and state dates from a Thomas Jefferson letter of 1802 to a Baptist congregation.

    The Establishment Clause of the 1A prohibits 'embracing' and/or a national church depending on which Justice is read or which SCOTUS decision.

    Remember that when you hear 'Another brick in the wall, Teacher! Leave that kid alone.'

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    can you cite that for me, master doug? i think it all grows out of the 1st!

    the founders wrote lotsa letters, how many were ratified by the congress of the united states of america?
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  13. #13
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    proud_to_serveUSAF wrote:
    MSC... I wasn't trying to be a jerk w/ that statement. Didn't mean to get you heated. lol
    I am way OT here.
    Humble apologies to all...

    Proud:

    You didn't bother me. Thank you for your service to our country. You weren't a jerk at all. The thing that bugs me is when politicians, political commentators and others that are overly full of themselves (usually demoncraps)use statements in the exact OPPOSITE way in whichthey were originally intended.

    Its just a bunch of morons and idiots trying to impress people with "look how smart I am" talk; In reality, they are pretty stupid...
    They don't bother to LOOK IT UP! They just open their cumdumpsters without engaging their brains.Typical behavior oftheir mindset: They quote famous authors all day long, but they don't know WHO wrote a particular quote, when it was inspired or what it actually means.

    Reminds me of the indignant French woman that demanded to know where she was supposed to be and what timeher eventstarted at the Yorktown Day Celebration. When I told her where she could get directions and asked what her "number" was for the parade lineup, she got REALLY pissed off and left. How dare I not know where SHE was supposed to be and what time she was supposed to be there! :shock: I wasn't the one that was lost and late, but it darn sure was MY FAULT!!!

    Just ask the guy that's running around the world apologizing for our country's history and bowing to EVERY other world leader.

    P.S. The leader of this country bows to no one, nor do we EVER "dip" our colors to another country until they dip theirs FIRST...
    In Japan, the deeper the bow, the more "deep" the apology or the more subsurvient you are to their leader.
    SimplyfugginAMAZING...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    1245A Defender wrote:
    can you cite that for me, master doug? i think it all grows out of the 1st!

    the founders wrote lotsa letters, how many were ratified by the congress of the united states of america?

    Amendment 1

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    Reading a separation of Church and State into that line is no different than readingthe rightto arm the National Guard into this one.

    Amendment 2

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    You can't pick and choose which of the Bill of Rights are to be taken literally and which are to be translated. They are either to be read how they are written or not, all or none.

    Making no law does not mean denying or ignoring any recognition of it.


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    1245A Defender wrote:
    can you cite that for me, master doug? i think it all grows out of the 1st!

    the founders wrote lotsa letters, how many were ratified by the congress of the united states of america?
    Someone else has quoted 1A including the Establishment Clause prohibiting "respecting an establishment of religion."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_of_separation

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_of..._separation.22
    1. ^ "Mr. Cotton's Letter Lately Printed, Examined and Answered," The Complete Writings of Roger Williams, Volume 1, page 108 (1644).^ Feldman, Noah (2005). Divided by God. Farrar, Straus and Giroux, pg. 24 ("Williams's metaphor was rediscovered by Isaac Backus, a New England Baptist of Jefferson's generation, who believed, like Williams, that an established church -- which he considered to exist in the Massachusetts of his day -- would never protect religious dissenters like himself and must be opposed in order to keep religion pure.")^ To Messrs. Nehemiah Dodge and Others, a Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association, in the State of Connecticut. January 1, 1802. Full text available online.
    http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jefferson_dba.html

    Letter to the Danbury Baptist Association To Messrs. Nehemiah Dodge and Others, a Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association,
    in the State of Connecticut. January 1, 1802
    .
    by Thomas Jefferson

    entlemen, — The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
    Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
    I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.

    Thomas Jefferson: Writings, New York: Library of America, 1994, p. 510. )





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    In SC the ban on carry in churches is the same as the ban on carry in Hospitals so the separation of Church and state is not even a factor. In both cases the laws says your can't carry without permission of whoever is in charge of it so there is not a ban, only a requirement to get the permission of the owner. This says that both are private property and respects that they are private property.

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    SC law used to not define a 'medical facility' allowing the ARC or Dr. Yueh's Mentat Academy to prohibit guns.

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    I agree that it violates 1A, by restricting the "free exercise thereof". I also think it violates 5A not just for churches, but also hospitals, bars, private schools, sporting events in privately-owned venues, or any other private property that is statutorily off limits.



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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    SC law used to not define a 'medical facility' allowing the ARC or Dr. Yueh's Mentat Academy to prohibit guns.
    Some have questioned if this applies to Veterinary offices and I don't know.


    23-31-215 (M)
    (10) hospital, medical clinic, doctor's office, or any other facility where medical services or procedures are performed unless expressly authorized by the employer.



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    Carry every Sun in NC. As long as there is no K-12 school on the property. I have recently had a few discussion about Sunday School not being an actual school as defined by law. I find it amusing the folks blindly assume the word school is what bans guns.

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    proud_to_serveUSAF wrote:
    I don't know if carry in churches is allowed in any state, but for the sake of argument I'll go with it's not like here in VA.
    It is allowed in VA, unless you're doing it without good & sufficient reason and a meeting for religious purposes is underway.

    § 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

    If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

    (Code 1950, § 18.1-241; 1960, c. 358; 1962, c. 411; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-283

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    can SOMEONE PLEASE FIND "Separation of Church and State" in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, Articles of Confederation of the Declaration of Independence?

    NO YOU CAN'T because it isn't THERE!!!

    The wording comes from a LETTER written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists and actually means the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what most people think it does! It was later quoted by SCOTUS in 1878 and got pretty out of hand after that...

    Talk about ABUSED statements??? This is the most abused and misused statement in the HISTORY of the United States and it REALLY PISSES ME OFF!

    <rant off>
    You are correct except that Jefferson spoke of the "wall of separation". But as for the Bill of Rights, a correct reading of the First Amendment clearly states that congress shall make no law..... And guess what? Congress never has made any such law. It says absolutely nothing about schools, firehouses, parks. etc.

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.."

    This is the section in question and it not only states that congress shall make no law, but it also clearly states that congress may not prohibit the free exercise of religion.

    Since 1962 (or was it 1963), this simple English text has been so twisted as to essentially remove anything religious from public life. This is the danger of blanket interpretation, something the Founders were totally against.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  23. #23
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    can SOMEONE PLEASE FIND "Separation of Church and State" in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, Articles of Confederation of the Declaration of Independence?

    NO YOU CAN'T because it isn't THERE!!!

    The wording comes from a LETTER written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists and actually means the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what most people think it does! It was later quoted by SCOTUS in 1878 and got pretty out of hand after that...

    Talk about ABUSED statements??? This is the most abused and misused statement in the HISTORY of the United States and it REALLY PISSES ME OFF!

    <rant off>
    It would be interesting to debate which has done more damage to the country, the mythical "Separation of Church and State", or the court's constant mis-interpretation and wholesale abuse of the Commerce Clause.

    TFred
    Add to this list Amendments Two, Four, Five, and Ten as well. It's funny how us "lay" people have no trouble reading English while our lofty members of the Supremes and both houses of congress can't seem to understand this wonderful language.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    I'd be perfectly content if the whole issue was settled by simply outlawing religion. Anyone who needs such a flimsy crutch should probably be let fall anyhow.

  25. #25
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Armond Reese wrote:
    I'd be perfectly content if the whole issue was settled by simply outlawing religion. Anyone who needs such a flimsy crutch should probably be let fall anyhow.
    Please tell us you're not serious.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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