No carry in places of worship

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proud_to_serveUSAF wrote:

I don't know if carry in churches is allowed in any state, but for the sake of argument I'll go with it's not like here in VA.

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It is allowed in VA, unless you're doing it without good & sufficient reason and a meeting for religious purposes is underway.

§ 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.

(Code 1950, § 18.1-241; 1960, c. 358; 1962, c. 411; 1975, cc. 14, 15.)
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-283

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MSC 45ACP wrote:

can SOMEONE PLEASE FIND "Separation of Church and State" in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, Articles of Confederation of the Declaration of Independence?

NO YOU CAN'T because it isn't THERE!!!

The wording comes from a LETTER written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists and actually means the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what most people think it does! It was later quoted by SCOTUS in 1878 and got pretty out of hand after that...

Talk about ABUSED statements??? This is the most abused and misused statement in the HISTORY of the United States and it REALLY PISSES ME OFF!

<rant off>

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You are correct except that Jefferson spoke of the "wall of separation". But as for the Bill of Rights, a correct reading of the First Amendment clearly states that congress shall make no law..... And guess what? Congress never has made any such law. It says absolutely nothing about schools, firehouses, parks. etc.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.."

This is the section in question and it not only states that congress shall make no law, but it also clearly states that congress may not prohibit the free exercise of religion.

Since 1962 (or was it 1963), this simple English text has been so twisted as to essentially remove anything religious from public life. This is the danger of blanket interpretation, something the Founders were totally against.

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TFred wrote:

MSC 45ACP wrote:

can SOMEONE PLEASE FIND "Separation of Church and State" in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, Articles of Confederation of the Declaration of Independence?

NO YOU CAN'T because it isn't THERE!!!

The wording comes from a LETTER written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists and actually means the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what most people think it does! It was later quoted by SCOTUS in 1878 and got pretty out of hand after that...

Talk about ABUSED statements??? This is the most abused and misused statement in the HISTORY of the United States and it REALLY PISSES ME OFF!

<rant off>

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It would be interesting to debate which has done more damage to the country, the mythical "Separation of Church and State", or the court's constant mis-interpretation and wholesale abuse of the Commerce Clause.

TFred

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Add to this list Amendments Two, Four, Five, and Ten as well. It's funny how us "lay" people have no trouble reading English while our lofty members of the Supremes and both houses of congress can't seem to understand this wonderful language.

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I'd be perfectly content if the whole issue was settled by simply outlawing religion. Anyone who needs such a flimsy crutch should probably be let fall anyhow.

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Armond Reese wrote:

I'd be perfectly content if the whole issue was settled by simply outlawing religion. Anyone who needs such a flimsy crutch should probably be let fall anyhow.

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Please tell us you're not serious.

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I do need a crutch to get me through some situations, but it's not religion. Religion is just the belief and study of a higher power. It's God that gets me through.Seen too many miracles in my short life to not believe it. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

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proud_to_serveUSAF wrote:

I do need a crutch to get me through some situations, but it's not religion. Religion is just the belief and study of a higher power. It's God that gets me through. Seen too many miracles in my short life to not believe it. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

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Yeah, crutches like that.

YOU get you through. Your friends help you through. Imaginary men do nothing for you.

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Armond Reese wrote:

proud_to_serveUSAF wrote:

I do need a crutch to get me through some situations, but it's not religion. Religion is just the belief and study of a higher power. It's God that gets me through. Seen too many miracles in my short life to not believe it. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

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Yeah, crutches like that.

YOU get you through. Your friends help you through. Imaginary men do nothing for you.

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While mankind may be the dominant life form on this planet, we don't know enough about this universe, let alone our planet to fill a thimble.

We don't know all there is to know. Thus God or any other number of higher (or lower depending on your viewpoint) beings could very well exist.

It's far easier to take a live and let live perspective. While you may choose to not believe in God, there are those who do. Funnily enough, there are many here who are Pagan. But *their* religius beliefs have nothing to do with the purpose of this site.

Oddly enough, our Founding Fathers noted many times that our firearms rights (self-defense) come from our Creator. Please note that they did NOT specifically state Creator = God and that all others are pretenders.

So please don't trample over others' religious beliefs. We aren't trampling over yours. All we want is the same courtesy we are showing you.

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How in the world could you justify making religion illegal?

Unconstitutional on it's face.

Aside from which, that is the same thinking that so many of our anti gun "friends"subscribe too.

"I don't like guns, they should be banned."

"I don't like religion, religions should be banned."

Sound familiar?

I have no problem with anyone that holds beliefs different than my own, and would never try and force my beliefs on others.

Some however, try to do just that.

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thx997303 wrote:

How in the world could you justify making religion illegal?

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I wouldn't take him seriously. I think he's just trolling for a reaction.

I can't imagine anyone here seriously posting something so bigoted, stupid, and just plain prickish. What's next, rants against blacks, Jews, or women?

Maybe I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt, since I tend to do that, but I cannot believe he's serious.

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Unfortunately, posts like these tend to be used to attempt to make this site look like a bunch of radical nut jobs.

We at least need to make a discernible effort to make clear that these sorts of people are NOT representative of the membership of this site.

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Armond Reese wrote:

I'd be perfectly content if the whole issue was settled by simply outlawing religion. Anyone who needs such a flimsy crutch should probably be let fall anyhow.

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Please reread Basic Rule #5 http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum1/1.html

Quoted out of context here:
[font="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"]OCDO will NOT tolerate...... general bashing of groups of people based upon ........ religion...........[/font]

Religion is NOT a suitable topic for discussion on OCDO IMO.

Hope you take this in the spirit in which it is intended.

Yata hey

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proud_to_serveUSAF wrote:

I don't know if carry in churches is allowed in any state, but for the sake of argument I'll go with it's not like here in VA. How can the government get away with banning carry on property that they do not own and shouldn't this be some type of deal where seperation between church and state comes into play? J/w how the state can make that a law. Of course... this is the same government that tells us how many rounds we can carry or what types of weapons we can own.

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In the State of Utah it is perfectly legal to carry your firearm into a church unless the church gives some form of notice that guns are not allowed. If they give notice in one of several legally prescribed ways, then possession of a gun in the church (other than by a government agent of course) is not only a violation of the church's policy, but also a criminal offense: an infraction to be precise.

The exact same law applies to private homes as well.

However, there is no law creating any criminal offense for ignoring the private, anti-gun policies of other property owners including retail establishments or employers. You can be fired for violation of a no gun policy just as you might be for violation of the dress code. We do have "parking lot preemption" that prevents enforcement of a no guns employment policy within your own vehicle parked in the company parking lot. You might face a trespassing charge if you refuse to leave a private business when asked. But simple violation of the policy is not a crime itself.

But back to your original question, I agree. It seems to me to be a violation of freedom of religion for government to impose a gun ban inside a church. What of a church that WANTED guns present?

But since when has government given a damn about its proper role or constitutional limits of power?

Charles

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Grapeshot wrote:

Religion is NOT a suitable topic for discussion on OCDO IMO.

Hope you take this in the spirit in which it is intended.

Yata hey

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Sorry for getting OT everyone.

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Never met an athiest in a Defensive Fighting Position (Foxhole for you oldtimers)under fire while either "OCing or CCing" <keeping it On Topic here>

Grapeshot is correct, though... This is an OPEN CARRY FORUM;
Not a place to debate Religion, Sex or Politics (Three subjects one doesn't discuss in polite company accoring to my dear departed Grandmother and her "sister" Emily Post).

Semper Paratus

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So can we OC in Church in Wisconsin?

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It is not prohibited by state statute. Considering the schism that the dominant church is now undergoing, I expect guns to be the next Lutheran heresy. My pastor has not directly engaged any controversy in sermon or public.

Our fat greasy ex-cop attended once or twice while openly armed but never otherwise.

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Master Doug Huffman wrote:

Our fat greasy ex-cop attended once or twice while openly armed but never otherwise.

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:lol:Now Doug, that isn't very nice. hehe

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Speaking specifically to experience in WA State:

1.) Firearms Laws speak generally to things the State has control over. Religion isnt one of them (yet)

2.) A certain House of Worship (must go un-named for tactical reasons) dealt with this issue at the Board/Membership level. They have an experienced former LEO on the board. Their decision, with anti-gun Members kicking and screaming, was that once it was decided officially that the policy of the Organization was that firearms were allowed on Org property that someone carrying was not subject to the Org filing a Trespass complaint. Never mind its a moot point in light of WA Law which prevents them (anyone) from claiming Criminal Trespass when the incident is in a place open to the Public, but people have this innate nature that they like to control and manipulate others, so they made their little "decision" anyway... RCW cites that a defense to Criminal Trespass is that the premesis are open to the Public and that the individual didnt break any laws in entering in the first place.

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It's not prohibited by statute in NC. Unless they got signs on the door, it's OK.