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Thread: NO GUNS ALLOWED at Waterside???

  1. #1
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    I recovered sufficiently from last night's fall down stairs to go to the range for a littlewhile today. Shot until I was sufficiently sore and then departed. Bridget wanted to go to MacArthur, but I was pretty sure they were anti-gun so we went to Waterside where I knew everyone had been to Hooters several times after entertaining the Norfolk City Council or other business downtown.

    We actually stopped to read the VERY small print of the "rules" posted to the right of the doors you enter through when coming from the parking garage. Near the bottom, Bridget read "No Firearms".

    I was simply :what:at the thought, but we entered anyway. We passed several unarmed security guards and they didn't even notice we were BOTH OCing. I asked how "noticeable" my new Kimber was and she said "VERY!" We walked around inside, then outside to see the boats. I was also very interested to see a new sign posted in the bushes in front (waterfront side)of Watersidethat declared the outside areas a "park" that was open from sunrise to sunset. I laughed out loud at their feeble attempt to cut down on the crime rate. How creative! Take the victims out of the picture and you have no more crime! Brilliant!



    Going off on a tangent...
    OT: That's as entertaining Military Circle Mall security morons harassing me for using a WALKING STICK! While visiting there about a year ago, a MallPutz-SecurityClownconfronted me about "carrying a weapon". Since I had installed a "cane tip" to prevent it from slipping, he took my word that I was disabled. I went on to describe mycar that was parked close to the doors in a disabled parking spot and then asked himif he had any doubts about my status.

    This is the same place that has had more shootouts than the OK Corral, but they want to take a walking stick away from a disabled white man?

    I guess if my trousers had been hanging past my buttocks with circus-colored boxer shortsclearly visible in their entiretyand a "nine-milly" tucked somewhere I can't even bring myself to thinking about;
    I would have been allowed to walk through the mall with 10 of myHomeys in the middle of the day, the middle of the week,wearing jewelry valuedmore than my .45 caliber pistol collection completely unmolested...

    Its 11am in the middle of the week... D you know where your school-aged children are???

    Still OT: Want an education and some cheap entertainment at the same time? If you can go during the day (or at night if you bring Craig), visit Military Circle. Definitely don't go unarmed. You'll be outgunned regardless, but you have a better chance of encountering fewer scumbags. This is an OC board, but I would recommend CCing all the way on this field trip. You need the COMPLETE experience of the whole place. It istruly an interesting sociological experience.

    I'm game for the trip anytime. Send me a PM and let's go there for lunch!!!
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Hmmm....

  3. #3
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    nova wrote:
    Hmmm....
    Waterside or my Military Circle OT tirade?
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Hmmm....
    Waterside or my Military Circle OT tirade?
    waterside...I thought that was cleared up already. That's the cause of my Hmmm....

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    AFAIK Waterside and the City Council know quite well that they cannot ban guns from Waterside. My guess is that nobody has scraped the paint off the window since the court hearing. I'll admit that the last time I was at Waterside I did not bother looking to see if there was any "no guns" language because I knew that issue had been settled.

    It might be instructive to have a date-stamped picture sent tp the City Attorney with a request to fix it ASAP - maybe with a reminder that if it becomes necessary to go to court the City will have to pay the winner's legal expenses.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    skidmark wrote:
    AFAIK Waterside and the City Council know quite well that they cannot ban guns from Waterside. My guess is that nobody has scraped the paint off the window since the court hearing. I'll admit that the last time I was at Waterside I did not bother looking to see if there was any "no guns" language because I knew that issue had been settled.

    It might be instructive to have a date-stamped picture sent tp the City Attorney with a request to fix it ASAP - maybe with a reminder that if it becomes necessary to go to court the City will have to pay the winner's legal expenses.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    Skid? You mean to say I can win the NORFOLK OC LOTTERY???
    I thought that game was declared "over", too.
    I'll try to get a pic of the signage. it looked NEW, though.
    I really was suprised to see it there.

    Mike
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    I just might have to swing by there later this week to check that sign out. Like others, I was not looking for signs after the recent Norfolk City Council meeting as I had also assumed the problem was resolved.

    At any rate, the NPD inside paid us very little heed for the duration our large party was at Hooters. A couple of them merely nodded and went on about their business.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    We actually stopped to read the VERY small print of the "rules" posted to the right of the doors you enter through when coming from the parking garage. Near the bottom, Bridget read "No Firearms".
    HeHeHe

    Is Norfolk still a target rich environment for a gun rights activist?
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    skidmark wrote:
    AFAIK Waterside and the City Council know quite well that they cannot ban guns from Waterside. My guess is that nobody has scraped the paint off the window since the court hearing. I'll admit that the last time I was at Waterside I did not bother looking to see if there was any "no guns" language because I knew that issue had been settled.

    It might be instructive to have a date-stamped picture sent tp the City Attorney with a request to fix it ASAP - maybe with a reminder that if it becomes necessary to go to court the City will have to pay the winner's legal expenses.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    Skid? You mean to say I can win the NORFOLK OC LOTTERY???
    I thought that game was declared "over", too.
    I'll try to get a pic of the signage. it looked NEW, though.
    I really was suprised to see it there.

    Mike
    I don't think there is any OC Lottery to be won. The law says the courts may award your attorney fees and costs (that's not a quote), but nothing about punitive damages. And the court is not required to even do that.

    I think we've seen good results from simply informing the local jurisdiction that they are in violation and are exposed to additional expense if they choose to ignore it.

    Having said all that however, it is quite disturbing that Norfolk seems to be particularly hard-headed on this matter. Unfortunately, the law does not provide any bigger hammers for us to use, that I know of.

    TFred

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    there actually may be a "Norfolk OC Lottery" - just need to look a little further into the forest.

    Norfolk is on notice that it cannot restrict the carry of firearms. If the sign is up at Waterside and IF a cop attempted to enforce the signage, it could qualify as a Federal 1983 suit (violation of rights under color of law). I am not suggesting that anyone try to entice a Norfolk cop to arrest someone OCing at Waterside, but I have faith that there is at least one officer who would screw the pooch.

    Getting back to the state law issue, my opinion is that the Norfolk Circuit Court judge who hears a case against the city would be inclined to award fees based on the fact that the City surely seemed to be in contempt of the lower court's ruling by either allowing the sign to remain or adding it at some later date (whichever the case may be).

    I agree the first step should be to go to the City Attorney and inform him of the problem. (Be sure to go there OCing.)

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    skidmark wrote:
    I agree the first step should be to go to the City Attorney and inform him of the problem. (Be sure to go there OCing.)
    Now why do you want to get Fishy to soil his panties? He has been bruised pretty badly by all of his failed attempts to violate our rights.:celebrate

    Can't we all just get along?


    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    I don't have any plans tomorrow. Maybe if I can find his office, I'll go see the Norfolk City Atty and share my feelings with him.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    I don't have any plans tomorrow. Maybe if I can find his office, I'll go see the Norfolk City Atty and share my feelings with him.
    Got off phone with Norfolk City Attorney's office. Spoke to a lawyer there that told me Waterside is owned and operated by private entities. I told him I was pretty sure the city had a part of it and he kept to his party song, but added a new line: Down the "lineage" of owners is the "Housing Authority". I asked if they were a city or state organization orfunded by either of those. He just sang the same song.

    Doesn't having the "Housing Authority" as an owner make it PUBLIC property? he kept insisting it was PRIVATELY Owned. If it is privately owned, WHY do they have CITY COPS there?

    I didn't think they could have it "both ways"...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I thought this was already settled when Danbus was acquitted of his trespass charge.

    TFred


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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    I thought this was already settled when Danbus was acquitted of his trespass charge.

    TFred
    It was...but as the warden in "Cool Hand Luke" said," Some men you just can't reach..."
    Bitka Sve Rešava!
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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I don't recall, were there any newspaper articles that articulated this? Might be fun to take a copy to the city attorney...

    TFred


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    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    I don't have any plans tomorrow. Maybe if I can find his office, I'll go see the Norfolk City Atty and share my feelings with him.
    Got off phone with Norfolk City Attorney's office. Spoke to a lawyer there that told me Waterside is owned and operated by private entities. I told him I was pretty sure the city had a part of it and he kept to his party song, but added a new line: Down the "lineage" of owners is the "Housing Authority". I asked if they were a city or state organization orfunded by either of those. He just sang the same song.

    Doesn't having the "Housing Authority" as an owner make it PUBLIC property? he kept insisting it was PRIVATELY Owned. If it is privately owned, WHY do they have CITY COPS there?

    I didn't think they could have it "both ways"...
    It was settled with Danbus. Waterside is publicly owned. The Housing Authority was determined to be a political subdivision of the City of Norfolk and therefore, subject to pre-emption.

    For those that will ask... the links to that info are in the past on this very forum; merely a simple search away as it were.


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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Ah yes, here it is:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...mp;forum_id=54

    That's the post which quoted the VCDL Alert.

    http://www2.vcdl.org/cgi-bin/wspd_cg...LTER=waterside

    The Alert mentions that they were going to try to get a copy of the ruling, does anyone know if that ever happened?

    There is simply no excuse for the Norfolk City Attorney to try this again.

    TFred


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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Here's the text. It's only been nine months... do they think we're just going to forget something like this?

    TFred



    Abbreviations used in VA-ALERT: http://www.vcdl.org/help/abbr.html
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Big Win for Gun Owners! 2/10/09

    I just got the word - Danladi Moore, who was arrested for trespass by
    a Norfolk police officer last August while Danladi was lawfully open
    carrying at Norfolk's Waterside Mall, has just won his case in court!

    The judge told the Norfolk City Attorney that because of the City's
    financial interest in the mall, the mall is considered PUBLIC property
    and Danladi was therefore NOT trespassing. All charges are to be
    dropped.

    Well, well - another most deserved lesson to City Attorney Bernard
    Pishko on not harassing law-abiding gun owners.

    Pishko was hell-bent on prosecuting Danladi Moore to teach him a
    lesson because Danladi had challenged Norfolk's authority in a
    previous harassment case and won a $10,000 settlement.

    Hopefully Dan can now sue the pants off Norfolk AGAIN!

    I wonder how much this latest blunder is going to cost Norfolk?
    Perhaps another zero on the end of the previous settlement?

    Go get 'em, Danladi! ;-)

    We are attempting to get the transcript of the ruling as it could have
    much bigger implications for other such government-owned venues across
    the state.

    -------------------------------------------
    ***********************************************

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    Well, I headed out to waterside tonight.

    I had dinner with family and friends. Two of us opencarried. We sat in the common area for a wile and then had a meal at hooters. I am sure I was seen by security, if they missed the HK45 they need a new job. No comment, no hard, looks nothing...

    That said, there are new signs up! On the long list of rules there is this one about two thirds the way down:

    "possession of a weapon, even if legally carried except by law enforcement personnel"

    Pic taken, but not sure how to upload it. If someone knows how and will post it for me I would be happy to picture text the message to them.

    I am guessing they know the signs are wrong and know they cant enforce it, but are betting it will dissuade some from exercising there rights.

    I am undecided what the next step should be, but the signs need to go!



  21. #21
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I'd be tempted to print out a copy of the preemption law and tape it to all the signs. You wouldn't be able to see what happens in the managers office but wow I bet it would be funny!

    TFred


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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    I'd be tempted to print out a copy of the preemption law and tape it to all the signs. You wouldn't be able to see what happens in the managers office but wow I bet it would be funny!

    TFred
    +1

    I'll do it!
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    They'll probably charge you with defacing "public" property. I'd like to see them explain that one.
    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Not ifa "coordinated attack" is made...
    Not advocating breaking the law, but I have an idea how we can do it quickly and with minimal chance of immediate discovery.

    PRICELESS would be the management's reading of the sticker...

    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  25. #25
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    I've been sitting here stewing about this...
    The City Attorney (or one of them) outright LIED TO ME...
    Over and over... KNOWING he was doing it.
    WTF is WRONG with them?
    I also mentioned that they had been sued for violating someone's rights for OCing at Waterside and he DENIED it. I then said "Ok, you settled out of court..." He STILL denied anything ever happened.

    What are the chances this guy NEVER HEARD about Danbus???

    My guess is Slim and NONE (and Slim just left town!!!)

    That REALLY frosts my doodads...

    I found this quote from a Virginian Pilot Article...



    The city’s housing authority bought the marketplace from its private owner in early 1999. At the time, Norfolk leaders said they planned to eventually find a private owner and get out of the landlord business.

    Nearly 10 years later, the city still owns Waterside, which has become less of a boon to municipal coffers.

    It brought in roughly $2.2 million in revenue from real estate, food, beverage and admission taxes last year. That’s a $300,000 drop in annual tax revenue since 2004.

    Leases in recent years haven’t covered the marketplace’s operating costs and debt payments. The city has subsidized the facility with $850,000 annually. This year, Norfolk will have to find an additional $250,000 before the end of June to make up for additional lease shortfalls.

    With its questionable future, one of the biggest challenges is getting people to sign new leases, said John Kownack, an assistant executive director for Norfolk’s Redevelopment and Housing Authority. Some business owners shy away from leasing and making upgrades to spaces that they may have for only a couple of years, he said.

    WTF, O?!?!?!?!?!

    I have a newfoundamazing dislikefor Norfolk's "government". This "lawyer" outright LIED to me OVER AND OVER. The most troubling part of it was that I was on speakerphone while he did it and he did it with such conviction! I wonder how many others were in the room and involved in this CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY???

    I asked for his name, he gave it to me, but I didn't write it down.
    I'll find out what it was and call him out on this...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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