Scary incident involving shots fired

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Hmm. Forget the law, think about this on a practical level.

Bad guy (BG) demands money and grabs the good guy (GG) and attempts to pull him to the back seat. BG has just initiated force.

GG grabs gun.

BG responds to gun by escalating force, and attempting to disarm GG.

In a confined space, pinned by your clothing is a really crappy place to be beat up. While I'm sure our hero (GG) in this situation doesn't want to think about it, pulling someone into the back is a great way to get someone into a choke hold, either strangling them or causing neck injury. He responded with the amount of force that he had and could reasonably use, effectively.

I'm sorry but using your hands in this manner is particuarly sinister. Using a weapon is easy and impersonal - beating someone over $10 is a lot of work and is just plain cruel. The whole situation reeks of either drugs (as mentioned) or this guy just being a spawn of satan.

Sounds like the OP's user name came true. I'm glad you got through this OK, and I hope you make a speedy recovery from your injuries. Headaches are no fun.

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According to what I was taught. If you are in a fist fight and getting the crap beat out of you it is not legal to escalate the incident to lethal force. The BG did not have a weapon. I can easily see this going to trial.

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ravonaf wrote:

According to what I was taught. If you are in a fist fight and getting the crap beat out of you it is not legal to escalate the incident to lethal force. The BG did not have a weapon. I can easily see this going to trial.

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Since you were taught this, you can provide some references to what you are referring to.

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hsmith wrote:

ravonaf wrote:

According to what I was taught. If you are in a fist fight and getting the crap beat out of you it is not legal to escalate the incident to lethal force. The BG did not have a weapon. I can easily see this going to trial.

Click to expand...

Since you were taught this, you can provide some references to what you are referring to.

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Well, considering it's common knowledge that Virginia law says you must reasonably have fear of being killed or being seriously injured (yourself or others) do I really need to cite a quote? What I'm saying is a DA is going to go after a cab driver for shooting a man that was admittedly only going after $10 and only swinging a fist. I can easily see a Jury convicting this man.

What I was taught is that a single man swinging a fist and getting killed for it is going to go to trial. I know I don't fear death from a couple swings. Maybe you do.

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It's common knowledge that only people who feel the need to prove themselves to be "tough guys" ever argue that punches to the head don't constitute lethal force.

Them, and HankT.

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marshaul wrote:

It's common knowledge that only people who feel the need to prove themselves to be "tough guys" ever argue that punches to the head don't constitute lethal force.

Them, and HankT.

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Well, I am by no means a tough guy. But here is my rule of thumb that I hope keeps me out of prison when it comes to firearms.

1) If a BG attempts to harm me with non lethal force I will resist with non lethal force.

2) If a BG attempts to harm me with lethal force I will resist with lethal force.

I assume my definition of what constitutes lethal force is what you object too. After killing a fare and admitting to the DA that the man was yelling at him to give him $10 I would bet every last penny I own this goes to trial.

Men fight every day with their fists and it's not considered lethal force. Otherwise we would never have assault and battery charges, only attempted murder. If it can be proven to a jury that this cab driver knows fists aren't lethal force then there's a pretty good chance he goes to prison.

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Ever heard of "beating someone to death?" It literally can happen not to mention severe brain damage. Also if you were to get knocked out and the BG grabbed your gun he could easily kill you and run away with the gun to kill other innocent people. There are many reasons to defend your life as well as your gun IMO.

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CRF250rider1000 wrote:

Ever heard of "beating someone to death?" It literally can happen not to mention severe brain damage. Also if you were to get knocked out and the BG grabbed your gun he could easily kill you and run away with the gun to kill other innocent people. There are many reasons to defend your life as well as your gun IMO.

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Yes it can happen. But from what this cab driver described he was in no danger of being beaten to death. It was admitted by the man himself that the BG only wanted the $10 and it can be reasonably told to a Jury that he would have left after he had gotten the money.

You say defend your gun? Using lethal force to defend property is definitely illegal in Virginia.


I wanna know why when I got my ass kicked by the school bully he didn't go to jail for attempted murder. :cuss:I guarantee I took more of a beating than this cab driver did.

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Ravonaf, You will trust in the altruism of a thug who is beating you with his fists, to stop before he does serious injury? You sir are a candidate for the Darwin award. There is little difference in your method of self defense and dialing 911 and waiting for the cops.

Just how do you determine that a thugs intent is just to hurt you a little bit? Will you wait until he pulls a knife or gun before you engage from 1 foot distance?I don't know who trained you, but it sounds like the Brady Campaign method ofself destruction.:banghead:

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Seriously... have you never seen the end of The Godfather? The guy in the front seat, mostly facing away from his attacker is at all kinds of a disadvantage here. The OP is very lucky he was able to initiate any defense at all.

TFred

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ravonaf wrote:

According to what I was taught. If you are in a fist fight and getting the crap beat out of you it is not legal to escalate the incident to lethal force. The BG did not have a weapon. I can easily see this going to trial.

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According to what I was taught; if one is in imminent fear for his life or seriously bodily injury he may act with deadly force to stop and control the situation.

A bad guy jacked up on PCP or other illegal narcotics and who demonstrates enhanced strength lays violent hands upon good guy. Fearing a person who is under the effect of a controlled narcotic and with enhanced strength and impaired judgment; good guy tries to defend himself. Bad guy upon seeing a lawfully carried firearm escalates his attack to punching good guy in the head to take control of said firearm.

Good guy; already having violent hands laid upon him now has bad guy physically striking him in an attempt to take control of his firearm. Good guy absolutely has the legal right to introduce deadly force as not only was he being assaulted, but the bad guy now is trying to take control of his firearm.

I cannot see this going to trial. I don't even see this going as far as an indictment or having charging papers filed.

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ravonaf wrote:

According to what I was taught. If you are in a fist fight and getting the crap beat out of you it is not legal to escalate the incident to lethal force. The BG did not have a weapon. I can easily see this going to trial.

Click to expand...

This whole line of thinking kinda reminds me of this famous quote:

Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

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TFred

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ravonaf wrote:
Well, I am by no means a tough guy. But here is my rule of thumb that I hope keeps me out of prison when it comes to firearms.

1) If a BG attempts to harm me with non lethal force I will resist with non lethal force.

2) If a BG attempts to harm me with lethal force I will resist with lethal force.

I assume my definition of what constitutes lethal force is what you object too. After killing a fare and admitting to the DA that the man was yelling at him to give him $10 I would bet every last penny I own this goes to trial.

Men fight every day with their fists and it's not considered lethal force. Otherwise we would never have assault and battery charges, only attempted murder. If it can be proven to a jury that this cab driver knows fists aren't lethal force then there's a pretty good chance he goes to prison.

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Being attacked with fists in a dark alley by a man who seems to be under the influence of narcotics is a very, very different situation to some guy in a bar throwing a punch at you-- in that case it's almost certain that the bartender, patrons and/or bouncers will restrain the individual.

If you can reasonably articulate a fear of death or serious bodily injury, you can mount an affirmative defense of self-defense.

If he was at the point that he was beginning to feel dizzy, he was close to unconsciousness, which of itself can lead to serious brain injury. On top of that, he was in a very tight space with a man whose sanity was in question, was already violent, and was making a grab for the firearm.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me, though had the BG been shot, there very well may have been a civil suit filed, and while I disagree that it should be successful, the realist in me says that the moment you shoot someone you're out at the least $20k-$100k.

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Sorry it took me awhile to get to the replies. Gave a statement to 2 detectives, and they agreed that I would be in the clear if I had connected. If you go out in front of 814 48th st you will likely still see the broken glass everywhere.

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Ravonaf,

Perhaps I was not clear enough. The assault began at the same time he demanded 10 dollars. No time was given for compliance. The first hit was more of a sucker-punch that made me dizzy. After being hit, I presented the .45 which only caused him to strike me harder. I still only regret that I did not connect.

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ravonaf wrote:

marshaul wrote:

It's common knowledge that only people who feel the need to prove themselves to be "tough guys" ever argue that punches to the head don't constitute lethal force.

Them, and HankT.

Click to expand...

Well, I am by no means a tough guy. But here is my rule of thumb that I hope keeps me out of prison when it comes to firearms.

1) If a BG attempts to harm me with non lethal force I will resist with non lethal force.

2) If a BG attempts to harm me with lethal force I will resist with lethal force.

I assume my definition of what constitutes lethal force is what you object too. After killing a fare and admitting to the DA that the man was yelling at him to give him $10 I would bet every last penny I own this goes to trial.

Men fight every day with their fists and it's not considered lethal force. Otherwise we would never have assault and battery charges, only attempted murder. If it can be proven to a jury that this cab driver knows fists aren't lethal force then there's a pretty good chance he goes to prison.

Click to expand...

If number 2 happens you are already screwed. Waiting for him to stab or shoot you will do no good as you will already be one move down.

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Murphy's law, the camera was not working. The other car I picked him up in had a working camera but the data had been written over when it was driven by someone else.

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I think Insured did the right thing. In a situation where things were already bad, they could have gotten alot worse, and he was at a clear disadvantage position wise. If someone is yanking on you like that and trying to pull you into the back seat, it is quite possible to be choked out or even have your neck broken - all over $10.

Personally at that point I think I might be in fear for my life as well, especially after you consider all the types of things you read/see in the media about murder/death/kills by the animals in our society. How is Insured to know that isn't what he has on his hands verses just some hopped up meth head?How many rape cases end up with the victim being alive compared to dead?



<heavy sarcasm/rant>

Which brings up another point. Why would Insured even feel or think that is possible, and who is responsible for making him feel that way? None other than the media and entertainment industry. Why, if no one ever said any icky news stories and it was all blue skies and open pastures, Insured would never know what fear and M/D/K is all about. I say he sues industry to compensate for his now altered mental state.

</end heavy sarcasm/rant>

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ravonaf wrote:

According to what I was taught. If you are in a fist fight and getting the crap beat out of you it is not legal to escalate the incident to lethal force. The BG did not have a weapon. I can easily see this going to trial.

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Again, Huh?!!!!
Please show me where the OP stated he was engaged in a fist fight!

A fight involves combatants not a victim and an attacker.

The fare demanded money and used force to gain compliance, that force (blows to the head) could main or kill.

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If you don't believe it could happen I'll be happy to demonstrate how easy it is.
I would let you use real pepper spray and/or a real stun gun NO GUN OR KNIFE SINCE YOU DON'T BELIEVE THEY SHOULD BE USED AS THEY ARE LETHAL FORCE.

Send me a pm when you're in my area and I'll arrange for someone to video tape,it will be used as a training aid.

Ps.
You should ask for a refund from whoever taught you.

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I wonder if the BG had on body armor that deflected the round.