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Thread: Interstate Sale Technicalities

  1. #1
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    There have been a number of posts on the Ohio forum regarding the ownership and OCing of adults under the age of 21 (myself included). I recently spent some time re-reading the ORC and found no law stating that it is illegal to OWN a handgun under the age of 21, just to buy it. Here are the relevant codes:

    2923.21 Improperly furnishing firearms to minor
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.21

    2923.211 Underage purchase of firearm or handgun
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.211


    Here comes the interesting part. Ohio allows for
    Any resident of Ohio age eighteen or over ... [to] purchase or obtain a rifle, shotgun, or ammunition therefor in Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Pennsylvania, or West Virginia
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.22

    In 2923.11 Weapons control definitions the word "rifle" is not defined.
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.11

    So one of the things I need cleared up is if there is any precedent regarding the definition of "rifle" set by an Ohio court of law. If not, then I could assume that a "rifle" is, according to the New Oxford American Dictionary,
    a gun, esp. one fired from shoulder level, having a spirally grooved barrel intended to make a bullet spin and thereby have greater accuracy over a long distance.

    Note that it includes BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO "one fired from shoulder level". As long as the handgun has a rifled barrel it could conceivably be considered a "rifle".

    To recap so far, there is no law specifically making the ownership of a handgun by an adult below the age of 21 illegal, and there *may* be a way to transfer ownership to such a person while still obeying the law.

    As far as I can tell, any help being appreciated, the Kentucky Revised Statues allow for the purchase and ownership of a handgun and its ammunition above the age of 18. Relevant statues include

    527.100 Possession of handgun by minor.
    http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/KRS/527-00/100.PDF



    So the question becomes:

    Would it be lawful, being an Ohio resident above the age of 18 and below the age of 21, to purchase a handgun in Kentucky and transport it to Ohio, thereby retaining full legal ownership of the handgun? Could it be a private transfer? Could it be a private transfer between two Ohio residents who happen to be in Kentucky? Please cite any court cases that may be relevant as I would like to read about them.


    A corollary to this is "handgun ammunition". Could someone please enlighten me regarding the purchase of ammunition commonly used in handguns, i.e. 9mm, as opposed to ammunition commonly used in long-barreled weapons, i.e. .223/5.56? I've heard a number of conflicting ideas about this and can't seem to find anything in the ORC.

  2. #2
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    NavyLT
    1.* No.* An out of state handgun purchase from an FFL is in violation of Federal law, 18 USC 922(b)(3).

    2.* No.* A private party sale of a firearm to a resident of a different state is a violation of two Federal laws: 18 USC 922(a)(3) and (a)(5).

    3.* That is an interesting question.* Technically, it would appear as if the Ohio law would not have jurisdiction in KY.* Definitely ask a lawyer.* Federal law would not be violated if both parties were RESIDENTS of the same state, physical presence in that state is not required.

    4.* Can't answer that one, myself.

    5.* The Federal handgun ammunition restriction only applies to ammo purchased from licensed dealers, not private parties.* The Ohio laws you posted do not apply to ammunition... it's late and I'm not going to look up the Ohio ammo laws tonight :-).* What is illegal in the Federal law is for a person <21 years of age to buy ammunition INTENDED to be used in a handgun from a LICENSED dealer.* The intended USE of the ammo is what is pertinent... not the caliber of ammo.

    Thanks for the reply. I've been making my way through the section of the USC you referred to (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18...2----000-.html for anyone who may be interested) and man is it dense. The saying that no one can know for sure that they've never committed a crime certainly rings true. I know of many people who go to out-of-state gun-shows and such and I'm pretty sure they have no idea that they're breaking federal law and as far as I can tell, buying my son a trusty .22 for christmas would be a felony too...

    Anyway, back on topic, it seems as though ORC 1923.22(A) is null and void considering USC 18,922, except if both the buyer and seller are residents of the same state, so now the only thing to figure out is if the term "rifle" as used in ORC 2923.22 encompasses handguns or not. I'll consult a lawyer on that one.


    Thanks again,

    -poddus

  3. #3
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    There are a couple of problems with that FFL Newsletter. First of all, its target audience is firearms dealers, so private transfers were probably not considered in the writing of the newsletter.
    the GCA allows dealers to sell or dispose of [emphasis added]
    Secondly, the terminology used in the referenced section is "long gun", which, although still rather ambiguous, implies the exclusion of handguns much more than simply "rifle", which, lacking a definition in the ORC, could very well mean a gun having a rifled barrel regardless of size, this being the crux of my argument.

    Thirdly, it is not law. My point is that the ORC leaves a very important part of the law up to interpretation, and although the colloquial definition of the term "rifle" may not include handguns, the legal definition is missing and therefor left to interpretation by the courts of Ohio, or, lacking judicial precedent, by me, a law-abiding citizen

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    NavyLT
    It is allowed, by Federal and state laws, for a KY licensed dealer to sell a rifle or a shotgun to an OH resident. The definitions of rifle and shotgun are in Federal law as well and general mean a firearm with a barrel over 18" long and designed to be fired from the shoulder. A handgun is generally defined in Federal law as a firearm with a barrel 18" or less and designed to be fired using a single hand.

    It MIGHT be legal for one OH resident to sell a handgun to another OH resident who is 18+ a handgun IF they are both physically located in KY. I don't know how the law handles two residents of a state going to another state to conduct a transaction that would be illegal for them to conduct in their home state and then bringing the result of that transaction back into their home state.
    This is the only information I was really asking for in the first place, though I concede that, due to my preoccupation with Ohio law without really taking federal law into account, my request may have been difficult to understand. Sorry for any frustration. Interesting stuff though.


    (This next bit is intended more for anyone reading along)
    Reading through the Code of Federal Regulations, I found the two important sections to consider:

    CFR Title 27, Volume 3, Chapter II, §§ 478.29 - 478.30
    http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_20...7cfr478.29.htm
    http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_20...7cfr478.30.htm

    §478.29 basically states that it is illegal to transport a firearm to one's State of residence from another State unless it is in accordance with §478.30. This is important because §478.30 forbids the transfer, sale, trade, giving, transportation, or delivery of a firearm, but, and here's the kicker, only to whom

    the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides
    So, hypothetically, two Ohio residents in Kentucky both reside in the same state and are therefor in compliance with §478.30, meaning a transfer of a firearm may be carried out legally. Upon legal transfer, the firearm may subsequently be transported back to Ohio in compliance with §478.29. Ohio law only allows the selling of handguns to persons of age 21, but Kentucky law allows this for persons of age 18. Ohio law only applies in Ohio, so this would potentially allow for the transfer of a handgun to an Ohio resident older than 18 years but younger than 21 years.

    What I was initially attempting to exploit was the lack of a definition of the term "rifle" as used in ORC §2923.22. This, however, is an outdated law as discussed in the FFL NEWSLETTER referred to by NavyLT:

    ATF takes the position that if the laws of a given State allow its residents to acquire a long gun in a contiguous State, those laws also allow its residents to acquire a long gun in any other State where the laws of that State permit such transactions, unless the language contained in that State’s law expressly prohibits it residents from acquiring a firearm outside that State.
    This only discusses "long guns" due to the fact that many States previously had (and still do to some extent) provisions allowing for purchases of "shotguns and rifles". These laws are outdated though, and, if I understand correctly, not even relevant to the hypothetical situation being discussed since, at least the provision in the ORC, does not specifically prohibit handgun transfers, which then presumably allows for the unusual circumstances of the hypothetical.

    I think that about covers it. If I have made any blatant errors, please let me know. I don't feel like proof-reading this whole thing :P


    Oh and in case anyone was interested, here is the definition of "rifle" to which (I believe) NavyLT was referring:

    CFR Title 27, Volume 3, Chapter II, §478.11 COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION subsection B DEFINITIONS, found here
    http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_20...7cfr478.11.htm
    Rifle. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended
    to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or
    remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge
    to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single
    pull of the trigger.
    the above refers (though not exclusively) to firearms transactions within the United States as per the definition of "commerce" in the section. There is another section of the law the deals specifically with importation, where the definition is as follows
    (found here http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_20...7cfr447.11.htm)
    Rifle. A shoulder firearm discharging bullets through a rifled
    barrel at least 16 inches in length, including combination and drilling
    guns.

    Update!
    Wednesday; May 26, 2010

    NavyLT mentioned a very important oversight (here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to..._id=43#p775414 ) that effectively closes this loophole. The code in question is 18 USC 922 (a)(3) which can be found here:

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/71...2----000-.html
    (a) It shall be unlawful— (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
    In short, I only really took the Code of Federal Regulations into account when I wrote the final explanation in the aforementioned thread, which has very clear similarities to 18 USC 922 (a)(5) but is, however, more lenient than 18 USC 922 (a)(3). (a)(3) contradicts the CFR and (a)(5) in this regard, but, since (a)(3) specifically prohibits this type of transfer regardless of the exemption in the CFR and (a)(5), any transfer of this sort would be illegal.* In layman's terms, just because something is exempted in one code doesn't mean it isn't outlawed in another.


    *IANAL

  5. #5
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    poddus wrote:
    There have been a number of posts on the Ohio forum regarding the ownership and OCing of adults under the age of 21 (myself included). I recently spent some time re-reading the ORC and found no law stating that it is illegal to OWN a handgun under the age of 21, just to buy it. Here are the relevant codes:

    2923.21 Improperly furnishing firearms to minor
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.21

    2923.211 Underage purchase of firearm or handgun
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.21


    Here comes the interesting part. Ohio allows for
    Any resident of Ohio age eighteen or over ... [to] purchase or obtain a rifle, shotgun, or ammunition therefor in Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Pennsylvania, or West Virginia
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.22

    In 2923.11 Weapons control definitions the word "rifle" is not defined.
    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.11

    So one of the things I need cleared up is if there is any precedent regarding the definition of "rifle" set by an Ohio court of law. If not, then I could assume that a "rifle" is, according to the New Oxford American Dictionary,
    a gun, esp. one fired from shoulder level, having a spirally grooved barrel intended to make a bullet spin and thereby have greater accuracy over a long distance.

    Note that it includes BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO "one fired from shoulder level". As long as the handgun has a rifled barrel it could conceivably be considered a "rifle".

    To recap so far, there is no law specifically making the ownership of a handgun by an adult below the age of 21 illegal, and there *may* be a way to transfer ownership to such a person while still obeying the law.

    As far as I can tell, any help being appreciated, the Kentucky Revised Statues allow for the purchase and ownership of a handgun and its ammunition above the age of 18. Relevant statues include

    527.100 Possession of handgun by minor.
    http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/KRS/527-00/100.PDF



    So the question becomes:

    Would it be lawful, being an Ohio resident above the age of 18 and below the age of 21, to purchase a handgun in Kentucky and transport it to Ohio, thereby retaining full legal ownership of the handgun? Could it be a private transfer? Could it be a private transfer between two Ohio residents who happen to be in Kentucky? Please cite any court cases that may be relevant as I would like to read about them.


    A corollary to this is "handgun ammunition". Could someone please enlighten me regarding the purchase of ammunition commonly used in handguns, i.e. 9mm, as opposed to ammunition commonly used in long-barreled weapons, i.e. .223/5.56? I've heard a number of conflicting ideas about this and can't seem to find anything in the ORC.

  6. #6
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    poddus wrote:
    There have been a number of posts on the Ohio forum regarding the ownership and OCing of adults under the age of 21 (myself included). I recently spent some time re-reading the ORC and found no law stating that it is illegal to OWN a handgun under the age of 21, just to buy it.
    Huh? The statutes you cite do not make it a crime to by a handgun if you are under 21 - just a crime to sell you one.

    Why do folks read things into statutes that are not there?

    If you really want to buy a handgun, move into a state that allows private sales of handguns to persons 18-21, make a home there for a speall, maybe take some college courses,geta job, etc., then go buy a handgun in a private sale, then later move back to Ohio.

  7. #7
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    Mike wrote:
    poddus wrote:
    There have been a number of posts on the Ohio forum regarding the ownership and OCing of adults under the age of 21 (myself included). I recently spent some time re-reading the ORC and found no law stating that it is illegal to OWN a handgun under the age of 21, just to buy it.
    Huh? The statutes you cite do not make it a crime to by a handgun if you are under 21 - just a crime to sell you one.

    Why do folks read things into statutes that are not there?

    If you really want to buy a handgun, move into a state that allows private sales of handguns to persons 18-21, make a home there for a speall, maybe take some college courses,*get*a job, etc., then go buy a handgun in a private sale, then later move back to Ohio.
    My apologies, I accidentally cited the same statue twice. If you look closely they are both the same URL, I must have deleted the second "1" from the second URL. It really should be:

    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.211
    see (B)

    I will edit the original post to remove this mistake. In any case it only goes to show that you've merely skimmed my posts and don't really understand what I am trying to say. If you're going to be rude, at least be correct.

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    2923.211 Underage purchase of firearm or handgun.


    (A) No person under eighteen years of age shall purchase or attempt to purchase a firearm.

    (B) No person under twenty-one years of age shall purchase or attempt to purchase a handgun, provided that this division does not apply to the purchase or attempted purchase of a handgun by a person eighteen years of age or older and under twenty-one years of age if either of the following apply:

    (1) The person is a law enforcement officer who is properly appointed or employed as a law enforcement officer and has received firearms training approved by the Ohio peace officer training council or equivalent firearms training.

    (2) The person is an active or reserve member of the armed services of the United States or the Ohio national guard, or was honorably discharged from military service in the active or reserve armed services of the United States or the Ohio national guard, and the person has received firearms training from the armed services or the national guard or equivalent firearms training.

    (C) Whoever violates division (A) of this section is guilty of underage purchase of a firearm, a delinquent act that would be a felony of the fourth degree if it could be committed by an adult. Whoever violates division (B) of this section is guilty of underage purchase of a handgun, a misdemeanor of the second degree.



    Im new to open carry as well. Im 20yrs old and just went on my first open carry in Mansfield. I went to Kohls, the mall, and Wendys in Shelby, Ohio. I carry a Ruger with my shoulder holster on. I found that its legal for me to open carry because the law states that you have to be 18 to open carry in Ohio, and as it is illegal to purchase a handgun if you are under 21... except if you are part of the armed forces with "firearms" training. Which I am so I see that it is perfectly legal to open carry because 18 being the open carry age and me being able to purchase my own gun, Im not breaking any laws.



  9. #9
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    @redlinestg2:

    Sounds like your first carry went well. Anything worth mentioning? Anyways this thread was more of a logical exercise on the subject of legal circumvention of State firearms laws than a question about the ORC. I like to think that I'm well-read in that regard

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