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Thread: "Evil Rifle" purchase

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    So today a few coworkers and i went to the dulles gun show. My friend was looking for a S&W M&P 22. After browsing for the cheapest one, he inquired to purchase.
    The seller would not sell it to him because he does not have a VA DL, mind you he IS stationed in Va in the USMC and had a Military ID, VT DL and a copy of his orders stating he is staioned in VA.
    The reason given was that it was a AR, Black rifle, EVil Rifle... so forth and that there is a law that only VA citizens with passport or VA DL can buy them in VA.
    I know this to not be true but were does this logic come from?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    vamarine wrote:
    So today a few coworkers and i went to the dulles gun show. My friend was looking for a S&W M&P 22. After browsing for the cheapest one, he inquired to purchase.
    The seller would not sell it to him because he does not have a VA DL, mind you he IS stationed in Va in the USMC and had a Military ID, VT DL and a copy of his orders stating he is staioned in VA.
    The reason given was that it was a AR, Black rifle, EVil Rifle... so forth and that there is a law that only VA citizens with passport or VA DL can buy them in VA.
    I know this to not be true but were does this logic come from?
    Your friend should have been able to consummate the sale. The dealer was wrong on Va. law; nevertheless, there is nothing requiring him (the dealer) to make the sale either. :?

    § 18.2-308.2:2.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    That is his choice not to sell. His loss we chose another vendor and got a military discount.
    My buddy said Gander Mountain on Rte. 3 said the same thing about "Black Rifles".

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    vamarine wrote:
    ...SNIP

    My buddy said Gander Mountain on Rte. 3 said the same thing about "Black Rifles".
    All that proves is that ignorance is contagious.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    vamarine wrote:
    That is his choice not to sell. His loss we chose another vendor and got a military discount.
    My buddy said Gander Mountain on Rte. 3 said the same thing about "Black Rifles".
    Wonder whether they would have sold you/him a PINK one.

    Glad he got what he wanted.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    ... Your friend should have been able to consummate the sale.

    § 18.2-308.2:2.
    Why / How ???

    (I'm assuming for this discussion that the individual was attempting to purchase what VA law considers an "assault weapon" e.g. "AR" :? -- don't get me started on that "definition")

    Is an active duty ID evidence that he is either a US citizen or has been granted permanent residency ??? (I'm not sure that it does)

    Does a VA DL constitute evidence of U.S. citizenship or permanent U.S. residency ??? (I'm not sure that it does)

    ... In addition, no dealer shall sell, rent, trade or transfer from his inventory any assault firearm to any person who is not a citizen of the United States or who is not a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence ...

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    VA law see al Active duty service and family member as VA residents with a valid military ID and orders showing being stationed in VA to validate residency for firearm purchases. Military members are not required to obtain a VA DL. I have had a few times were the seller wanted more documents than required by VAlaw, made some purchases take longer suchthan 3 hours to buya .22 rifle at Dick's in Richmond.

    So am I to understand thatunder VA law sellers of any goods or services that the seller has no obligation to sell to a legal buyer of such goods for any reason - how ever in this case there is a reason - wrong and therefore a case for discrimination bases on being a service member. Would this be ok if the reason was the buyer had a Spanish accent, race the seller doesn't like.

    If this is VA law, citeplease, that sellers have the right to not sell goods or firearms for any reason - even if they make one up – is racism or buyers choice of employer a good reason? If not, the buyer was a victim of discrimination base on his choice of employer. What next? -I know you have all the right paperwork under VA law, but no gun because your pants are the wrong color or your haircut is too short? If he said because I don’t want to sell it to you – the buyer may get upset – but once the buyer states a reason in writing or verbally can the seller can be stuck with a discrimination suit if the reason is not factual?



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    rgrwo wrote:
    ... If this is VA law, citeplease ...
    The question is "U.S. Citizenship" or "admitted for permanent residency."

    The cite was in the original post.

    Here it is again:
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...d+18.2-308.2C2

    See paragraph B (the 2nd section)
    To establish citizenship or lawful admission for a permanent residence for purposes of purchasing an assault firearm, a dealer shall require a prospective purchaser to present a certified birth certificate or a certificate of birth abroad issued by the United States State Department, a certificate of citizenship or a certificate of naturalization issued by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services, an unexpired U.S. passport, a United States citizen identification card, a current voter registration card, a current selective service registration card, or an immigrant visa or other documentation of status as a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence issued by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services ...

    BTW, the S&W MP15-22's 25-round mag (of .22 LR cartridges) discussed by the OP would seem to qualify it as an "assault weapon" under VA law. :?

    I'm honestly not sure what's meant by "permanent residency" for non-citizens; don't all visas have an expiration date?



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    The seller is burdened to ascertain that the buyer is in fact not a prohibited person, and that the sale is legal (per Va law), i.e. proper residency, age, not a strawman purchase,etc. The seller doesn't need to give a reason for declining to sell. The seller could have asked for the unnecessary documentsin order to nix the sale.

    While Va law considers military personnelassigned within the commonwealth to a permanent duty station as residents for firearms purchases, not every merchant can identify avalid military ID, or recognize the proper military orders. (Army doesn't look like Navy which doesn't look like USMC or USCG or USAF.) Unfortunately, these documents can be faked, especially orders.

    Mt Vernon .40 wrote: "BTW, the S&W's 25-round mag (of .22 LR cartridges) would seem to qualify it as an "assault weapon" under VA law." Not exactly, the law specifies centerfire ammunition.


    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    2a4all wrote:
    Mt Vernon .40 wrote: "BTW, the S&W's 25-round mag (of .22 LR cartridges) would seem to qualify it as an "assault weapon" under VA law." Not exactly, the law specifies centerfire ammunition.
    Right you are, sir!

    Thanks for the correction/calibration.

    Given that, I stand corrected ... this transaction should have been "good to go" as Grapeshot originally posted.

    Now ... had it been a .223 Win / 5.56x45 transaction ... my question re: what's meant by "permanent residency" for non-U.S. Citizens still applies.

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    Read Item 3.



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    Mt Vernon .40 wrote:
    I'm honestly not sure what's meant by "permanent residency" for non-citizens; don't all visas have an expiration date?


    No. A Permanent Resident is defined here:

    http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/usc...00082ca60aRCRD

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    buster81 wrote:
    No. A Permanent Resident is defined here:
    Thank you.

    One more quality bookmark for future use / reference.

    Clearly, active duty ID cards meet the "permanant U.S. resident" requirement.

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    Active-Duty Member of Armed Forces Stationed in Virginia May Purchase Firearm, Op. Va. Att'y Gen. No.03-044 (2003)

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    Virginiaplanter wrote:
    Active-Duty Member of Armed Forces Stationed in Virginia May Purchase Firearm, Op. Va. Att'y Gen. No.03-044 (2003)
    On this particular topic I thought the VA law is fairly clear, but thanks for this AG opinion citation.

    Coincidentally, for a several years of years my active duty I too -- like the subject of the AG opinion -- was a Texas resident, assigned to VA, with an abode in MD.

    ...

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    I wonder if this is backlash from the crap Bloomberg is pulling with his undercover entrapments?

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    chiliman wrote:
    I wonder if this is backlash from the crap Bloomberg is pulling with his undercover entrapments?
    I sooo want Bloomie to come to Va. and do that again now that we have an anti-Bloomie law.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I do believe he has been invited to attend VCDL meetings by several people. He would, of course, be treated in a civil manner and be permitted to speak his mind, but guys like that never have the guts to show.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    I do believe he has been invited to attend VCDL meetings by several people. He would, of course, be treated in a civil manner and be permitted to speak his mind, but guys like that never have the guts to show.
    He would?:shock:

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    peter nap wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    I do believe he has been invited to attend VCDL meetings by several people. He would, of course, be treated in a civil manner and be permitted to speak his mind, but guys like that never have the guts to show.
    He would?:shock:
    All VCDL meetings are open to the public. As long as you are civil and not disruptive you are allowed to sit in and ask questions. We are civilized. Unlike the antis, who run and hide when pro-RKBA people show up.

    Just ask nakedshoplifter.

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    peter nap wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    I do believe he has been invited to attend VCDL meetings by several people. He would, of course, be treated in a civil manner and be permitted to speak his mind, but guys like that never have the guts to show.
    He would?:shock:
    Nobody said anything about the parking lot afterwards

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    essayons wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    I do believe he has been invited to attend VCDL meetings by several people. He would, of course, be treated in a civil manner and be permitted to speak his mind, but guys like that never have the guts to show.
    He would?:shock:
    Nobody said anything about the parking lot afterwards
    That's not cool man, even a jokingly applied statement like that is incriminating IMO, and lowers us to the level of the tyrannts. We must be willing to discuss our views with anybody that opposes us, either at a VCDL meeting or standing in line at a grocery store, or a parking lot.

    Being absolutely sure of YOUR view without even listening to the other sides reason or lack there of, is dogmatic. We should always consider the views of others with respect, just as we would like them to accept ours.



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    Pagan wrote:
    essayons wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    I do believe he has been invited to attend VCDL meetings by several people. He would, of course, be treated in a civil manner and be permitted to speak his mind, but guys like that never have the guts to show.
    He would?:shock:
    Nobody said anything about the parking lot afterwards
    *That's not cool man, even a jokingly applied statement like that is incriminating IMO, and lowers us to the level of the tyrannts. We must be willing to discuss our views with anybody that opposes us, either at a* VCDL meeting or standing in line at a grocery store, or a parking lot.

    *Being absolutely sure of YOUR view without even listening to the other sides reason or lack there of, is dogmatic. We should always consider the views of others with respect, just as we would like them to accept ours.

    *
    Well put.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Pagan wrote:
    essayons wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    I do believe he has been invited to attend VCDL meetings by several people. He would, of course, be treated in a civil manner and be permitted to speak his mind, but guys like that never have the guts to show.
    He would?:shock:
    Nobody said anything about the parking lot afterwards
    That's not cool man, even a jokingly applied statement like that is incriminating IMO, and lowers us to the level of the tyrannts. We must be willing to discuss our views with anybody that opposes us, either at a VCDL meeting or standing in line at a grocery store, or a parking lot.

    Being absolutely sure of YOUR view without even listening to the other sides reason or lack there of, is dogmatic. We should always consider the views of others with respect, just as we would like them to accept ours.

    Correct. Bloomberg always has a security detail. Apparently he thinks he needs it to protect himself from us barabarians. Let's be a little more grown-up than to prove him right.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    +1

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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