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Thread: What to do with Calguns?

  1. #1
    Regular Member wewd's Avatar
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    The moderators at Calguns Forum are deleting any threads debating UOC, and any negative remarks on their "directive" for open carriers to stand down. Funny, I don't remember electing them to govern over me. They deleted the entire thread on the KFI UOC story, because of the negative backlash against the Vice President of the California Rifle and Pistol Association, who made some very disparaging comments about UOCers on the radio. There were a lot of pro-UOC comments in that thread to which the moderators did not take kindly. They were all deleted, but most of the pages from that thread are available in the Google Cache. Click the "cached" link to view the deleted pages.

    Then there was another thread asking why the first thread was deleted, and that thread too was deleted. They are actively trying to shield the CRPA VP from any criticism and to bury the story.

    So what, I ask, is the deal with Calguns? I know that they do not want anyone to UOC until after McDonald and Nordyke, though I do not fully understand their reasoning. I can live with that, even though I do not necessarily agree with it. But this silencing of any dissent and debate is more than I can take.

    I am very close to never having anything to do with Calguns ever again.
    Do you want to enjoy liberty in your lifetime?

    Consider moving to New Hampshire as part of the Free State Project.

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    They (Kes and the board)have a bigger picture out look. As do I and other founding CA OCDO membershere. UOC is nothing in and of itselfand none of us should be attached to it. Unfettered LOC and CCW should be everyone's ultimate goals. Useless infighting, no matter how many "pro" posts you read, is still not productive at this juncture. I suggest you PM the VP and use persuasion to influence his opinions and future actions if it concerns you so much. UOCers are but a few dozen and engaging in a "battle" on line is only going to insure we don't have a seat at the RKBA table.

    Standing down on UOC is all about preserving it as a tactic. Since we are not going to effect public opinion quickly enough to influence the legislature or the selection of Ca Judges on RKBA issueswe need to NOT do damage by getting more legislation passed before we are in a judicial position to stop it.

    The next year may give us that position. Waiting on UOC is similar to not rushing ahead of the battle line and getting picked off. The whole line needs to go forward in mutual support only taking those hills that are the most strategic and accessible at the moment (LTCs, handgun roster). As ground is taken new hills will become targets (AW laws, LOC, School Zones). Rushing headlong with the LightBrigade at Balaclava into the Russian guns only makes for great poems and movies.

    Certain legal cases need to be won first to create a platform for subsequent and more controversial cases. There is a reason that the only issue in Gura's McDonald is incorporation against state/city law via the 14th A. The Chicago Ban is identical to DC's which was already found unconstitutional. K.I.S.S. approach to litigationis what will work and is based on the successful civil rights litigation from the last century. This is thesame reason why Heller only focused onkeeping a loaded revolver IN THE HOME. K.I.S.S. and secure the beachhead.

    They are the basic buildingblocks thatwill be the foundation for the next cases.

    UOC serves NO strategic purpose at this time in the fight and could set us back years. In fact CA could then end up with a Texas style concealed right. I would wish for Vermont but see Arizona as more realistic. I do not want TX's BS concealment laws here which may very well survive constitutional scrutiny.





    http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...mp;postcount=7





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    As for myself, I'm comfortable with UOC. If others aren't, they shouldn't do it. I live in North San Diego County and when UOC, I carry a copy of the memos by the SD D.A. and Oceanside PD.

    If the "Right" people atCalGuns wants me to not UOC, they can knock on my door and tell me to my face. Then I'll tell them go pound sand

    "A man'sgot to know his his limitations."

    Harry Callahan

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    yelohamr wrote:
    they can knock on my door and tell me to my face. Then I'll tell them go pound sand...
    I'll pm you next time I get down there and buy you a beer. I love taking strategy and explaining my thoughts on the subject. And I do want everyone to understand the game plan and how it will benefit all of us long term.

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    Thanks, but I don't drink when I'm armed.

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    yelohamr wrote:
    Thanks, but I don't drink when I'm armed.

    I do but alright then, grass smoothy, root beer, iced tea...?


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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    I love the battlefield analogies.

    IfCGF isn'table to secure and hold what ground we already have (UOC and limited LOC),why should we follow a commander and leader who says I can take this hill (CCW) follow me - ground we don't have? That leader and commander needs to dig into the ground we already have, make it secure before venturing up the CCW hill.

    The ground we hold now (UOC and limited LOC) is becoming more secure with OC events, with positive OC newspaper/magazine/TV coverage, with more individuals becoming educated, and with LEO training bulletins, etc.

    All this without the encouragement of CGF. All CGF has done is to say, "Abandon that hill for now and if you stay on that hill and get captured, don't depend on us to help you."

    And when some on their discussion board sympathizes with UOC and limited LOC, that discussion is squelched! "We can't have dissension in the ranks!"
    Clinging to God & Guns: The Constitution Restoration Project

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    wewd wrote:
    The moderators at Calguns Forum are deleting any threads debating UOC, and any negative remarks on their "directive" for open carriers to stand down.


    This Calguns.net UOC thread is still going strong on the front page. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=241466

    And it's not a directive. It's a reasoned plea. One I will keep harping on while really hoping to NOT be shown to be right. I so hope I'm wrong on thisbut as we cannot take ground at thispoint it seems themost prudent course of action. An OC ban would set us back years.


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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    The ground we hold now (UOC and limited LOC) is becoming more secure with OC events, with positive OC newspaper/magazine/TV coverage, with more individuals becoming educated, and with LEO training bulletins, etc.

    There is no "secured" ground until it's a defined court protected constitutional Right post McDonald post Sykes and Post son of Sykes. UOC is about as secure as LOC was in CA in 1967.

    But post McDonald (June '10)we have the opportunity to stay legislation while challenging it in court.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    cato wrote:
    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    The ground we hold now (UOC and limited LOC) is becoming more secure with OC events, with positive OC newspaper/magazine/TV coverage, with more individuals becoming educated, and with LEO training bulletins, etc.

    There is no "secured" ground until it's a defined court protected constitutional Right post McDonald post Sykes and Post son of Sykes. UOC is about as secure as LOC was in CA in 1967.

    But post McDonald (June '10)we have the opportunity to stay legislation from taking effect while challenging it in court.
    Rights are notsecured by courts. Rights are notsecured by legislators. Rights are notsecured by our President.

    Rights are secured by people willing to make them secure.

    Clinging to God & Guns: The Constitution Restoration Project

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    Rights are secured by people willing to make them secure.


    Rightsare protected in a civil society by the rule of law.

    Grab your rifle and run out onto your porch.If you don't see anyone else doing the same I suggest you go back inside and rejoin the civil society and help get our rights secured under the rule of law. I'm not talking philosophy here or revolution, I'm talking nuts and bolts reality of winning back peacefully our lost RKBA.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    cato wrote:
    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    Rights are secured by people willing to make them secure.


    Rightsare protected in a civil society by the rule of law.

    Grab your rifle and run out onto your porch.If you don't see anyone else doing the same I suggest you go back inside and rejoin the civil society and help get our rights secured under the rule of law. I'm not talking philosophy here or revolution, I'm talking nuts and bolts reality of winning back peacefully our lost RKBA.
    I'm talking here about holding on to what we have.

    "We the people are the rightful masters of Congress and the courts; not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution." – Abraham Lincoln



    Clinging to God & Guns: The Constitution Restoration Project

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.

    Have you gone out on your porch yet?



    I'm talking here about holding on to what we have.
    UOC? You have U. I want L. We have nothing secure yet bro. I really hope a freight train load of reality doesn't hit the movement in the next few months.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    cato wrote:
    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.
    Have you gone out on your porch yet?
    The light's still on and the flag is still flying!
    Clinging to God & Guns: The Constitution Restoration Project

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    cato wrote:

    Have you gone out on your porch yet?
    The light's still on and the flag is still flying!
    Thats good, at least they haven't turned offyour power yet.

  16. #16
    Regular Member wewd's Avatar
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    You must be the change you wish to see in the world."

    -- Mahatma Gandhi
    Open carry, unloaded or otherwise, is not simply about carrying a gun to defend one's life. It is a political statement and social movement. What that statement is, is different for every person. It is an opportunity to educate the public about the rights for which their forefathers fought and died. Their right to bear arms has already been paid for, they just haven't been informed of their inheritance.

    Calguns' problem is they can't see beyond California's borders. There is a nationwide open carry movement that is going on right now, and the goal of that movement is to bring the image of law abiding, armed citizens back into our society, and to exercise the RKBA in a visible way. To show the public that not only do cops and criminals carry guns, but law abiding, free citizens as well. CCW won't do a thing to change that perception. It's time for gun owners to stop hiding their guns like they are something to be ashamed of.

    I have stated before that even after we get shall-issue CCW in this state, that I will most likely not apply for one. I still stand by that. I do not feel that I should have to ask permission of anyone, the government least of all, to exercise what is, as an American, my birthright. I also do not wish to be imprisoned for exercising my rights, so I simply will not conceal carry. I do not, however, need anyone's permission to open carry, so that is what I am left with. If it offends someone, I cannot be held accountable for it.

    You know where the biggest difficulty is in getting citizens to open carry? In states with shall-issue CCW. Most people who want to carry a gun are perfectly happy with their state-issued permission slip, and don't want the hassle of possibly freaking out some soccer mom, and having the cops called. There was a time when the sight of a holstered gun was never given a second thought. We can have that again, if we fight for it. But that battle will not be fought on the floor of any legislature, but in the forum of public opinion. There is nothing but good that can be accomplished by what we are doing.

    If the Founders of this nation were more concerned about doing what was popular rather than doing what was right, we wouldn't have any of these rights to debate about.


    Among the natural rights of the colonists are these: First a right to life, secondly to liberty, and thirdly to property; together with the right to defend them in the best manner they can."

    "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brushfires in the minds of the people."

    “Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say 'what should be the reward of such sacrifices?' Bid us and our posterity bow the knee, supplicate the friendship and plough, and sow, and reap, to glut the avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!”

    -- Samuel Adams
    If we wish to be free, if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending, if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained, we must fight!"

    "The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them."

    "The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."

    -- Patrick Henry
    They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote."

    -- Benjamin Franklin
    Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force. And force, like fire, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."

    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself! They are the American people's Liberty Teeth and keystone under Independence. From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security, and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere, restrains evil interference -- they deserve a place of honor with all that's good!"

    -- George Washington
    The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."

    "Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."

    "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."

    -- Thomas Jefferson
    Do you want to enjoy liberty in your lifetime?

    Consider moving to New Hampshire as part of the Free State Project.

    "Live Free or Die"

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    cato wrote:
    yelohamr wrote:
    Thanks, but I don't drink when I'm armed.

    I do but alright then, grass smoothy, root beer, iced tea...?
    I'll pass. Maybe someone at Calguns will drink with you.

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    Werd!!!

    Man, guys...its dead in the Idaho section of this forum. Leave Ca and it looks like I'm still stuck with you guys!:P
    Anywho...I am lacking faith now, more than ever at the goals of the CGF.
    I guess, if there is one thing I can say to you UOC guys:

    You guys really showed class, and continue to show class during this "stand down".
    Kudos for that.

    So, yeah...can't say much about those deleted threads. I guess thats what they do when they find anything that could hurt the CGN/CGF image...Kinda like that tannerite stuff. I don't think they actually deleted those threads, they did make it clear that they would not be defending anyone who is involved with tannerite in a legal situation. They also, they as in CGN and CGF do not want to be assosiated with it, no tannerite at events that are labeled CG events or group shooting sessions under the CGN name and organized on that site.


    So, yeah... Joined here to see more details about Theseus, and his case and found this thread:celebrate

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    We all want loaded open carry. I think it would be much easier to reverse the Mulford Act than it would be to win CCW. But, hey what do I know, I think passing a state constitutional amendment is easierthan incorporting 2A to all the states.

    As far as court protected rights, what's that worth? It's not worth a hill of beans when Constitutionally protected rights aren't protected. The point is, there will be more bad gun laws in this state regardless of Heller, McDonand, Nordyke, Sykes, and theany other court precedent. Count on it, expect it, ready yourself for it.

    The reason...our state jerkislators are so freakin radical, socialist, and anti-Constitution they will continue to do their will instead of the will of the People and write and pass bad gun laws regardless ofwhatever progress is made.

    The wayI see it, this will notbeginchange for at least three more years. In 2011 the PRK's political boundaries will beredrawn by a supposedly objective group, not political parties or incumbents. Only then can we hope to see more moderate candidates from all the parties begin to take office. But we will have to endure the upcoming 2010 elections first.

    Finally, and this is important, so please stay with me through this long post. Rights are not granted by the government, they are only protected or taken away by the government. Many government protected rights are now privileges such as free speech, gun ownership and carry, land ownership, privacy, freedom of travel, and even freedom of religion (at least where it can be practiced),and on, and on. So here's the thing...exercise your true remaining rightswhile you can, because as certain as death and taxes are the way this country is headed you will lose more rights before you discover newone's you haven't thought of yet. Remember, everything you can think of doing that doesn't infringe on someone else's rights are rights granted to you by your Creator, the government will only take them away, tax them or both if you let them.


    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    I forget if it was SCOTUS, lower court case law, or just one of us that said "open carry IS the right to bear".

    In a way, there cannot be peaceful coexistence between those who believe "A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost" and those who say you should not exercise your right to bear and wait until well after the unlimited cost-prohibitive privilege to bear arms is secured first after incorporation (via Sykes).

    They claim to worry about how the legislature will react to bastardized exercise of the right to bear, while at the same time, right out of the gate, sending a message to the legislature that we will accept infringements in the form of legalized bribery as long as we're all infringed upon equally in the form of shall issue, lower-class disenfranchised, CCW.

    Considering how much CA.gov loves to tax the proles to death, I wouldn't be surprised if all forms of free open carry were banned once shall-issue pay-lots-to-play CCW is law. As long as the system of legalized bribery is in place, they have a limitless funding source to fight the Second Amendment tooth and nail, as written and intended.

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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    In answer to the OP's question, there is nothing to do. CalGuns.net (CGN) is made up of it's members, 90 percent of which are good people. The problem is Kestryl. He bought CalGuns.net a few years ago, and it's now his sandbox, and he is a control freak who likes his petty power. We just have to put up with BS censorship and bias moding. Sadly, Kes has drivin off many good people over the years who we could use in our fight, and he continues to do so now.

    And don't confuse CGF (CalGuns Foundation) with CGN (CalGuns.net). CGF was founded by some of the brightest minds on CGN. Yes, they put Kes on the CGF board, which IMO was a very BAD idea. But regardless CGF is a positive force doing more for 2A in CA then most gun orgs.


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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    wewd wrote:
    They were all deleted, but most of the pages from that thread are available in the Google Cache. Click the "cached" link to view the deleted pages.
    It's not quite all there, but a lot of it is. And I grabbed some other pieces from the google cache earlier. I'll piece together as much of it as I can later and put it up on COCDO.



  23. #23
    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    Gentelman,

    The whole battle ground changes after if McDonald is decided in our favor. Constitutional jurisprudence dictates the once recognized that RKBA can not be taxed, possibly can be licensed/regulated, and the method of bearing might be left up to state law (open or concealed).

    I don't personally agree with the latter, as I would prefer an unregulated Open Carry right as generally described in SCOTUS's DredScott ("carry arms where ever they went") and Robertson v Baldwin ("laws prohibiting concealed weapons do not violate the 2A"). But it is likely states like TX and FL will pass constitutional muster.

    I agree with all the above idealistic views on Rights and bearing arms openly to secure that right for all posterity that have been eloquently expressed. But where we seem to have a disconnect is the understanding of prospects for positive changes in Sacramentoand public opinion in the current situation and later absent successin McDonald.

    My money is on McDonald and Gura/CGF. My vision and their's includes LOC. Waiting for the situation which launched successful OC in both Ohio and Wisconsin, having a court protected Right, is the politicallyand judiciallywisest course of action. We need that Federal Judicial protection to have any hope of securing RKBA in our lifetime in CA. Anything else is pie in the sky wishful thinking. Sac will move fast to squash OC without a win at SCOTUS.





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    cato wrote:
    Gentelman,

    The whole battle ground changes after if McDonald is decided in our favor. Constitutional jurisprudence dictates the once recognized the RKBA can not be taxed, possibly can be licensed/regulated, and the method of bearing might be left up to state law (open or concealed).

    I don't personally agree with the latter, as I would prefer an unregulated Open Carry right as generally described in SCOTUS's DredScott ("carry arms where ever they went") and Robertson v Baldwin ("laws prohibiting concealed weapons do not violate the 2A"). But it is likely states like TX and FL will pass constitutional muster.

    I agree with all the above idealistic views on Rights and bearing arms openly to secure that right for all posterity that have been eloquently expressed. But where we seem to have a disconnect is the understanding of prospects for positive changes in Sacramentoand public opinion in the current situation and later absent successin McDonald.

    My money is on McDonald and Gura/CGF. My vision and there's includes LOC. Waiting for the situation which launched successful OC in both Ohio and Wisconsin, having a court protected Right, is the politicallyand judiciallywisest course of action. We need that Federal Judicial protection to have any hope of securing RKBA in our lifetime in CA. Anything else is pie in the sky wishful thinking. Sac will move fast to squash OC without a win at SCOTUS.



    I still wonder why the message is being sent to the legislature via Sykes that first and foremost, we want the RKBA as a taxed privilege that few can afford (either morally or financially). Will the (or can the) complaint be amended once the RKBA is incorporated to pray for permanent relief from CCW taxation?

    If UOC/626.9 were two of the first things to be targeted to bring us back to tax-free LOC statewide, then I could say to myself, yeah, the RKBA for all, no matter the race, color, creed, or tax bracket, is being restored here. But as it stands, it looks like we will have to suffer with the PKBA for years to come.

  25. #25
    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    coolusername2007 wrote:
    I think it would be much easier to reverse the Mulford Act than it would be to win CCW. But, hey what do I know, I think passing a state constitutional amendment is easierthan incorporating 2A to all the states.

    I want what your smoken!:P

    The same people who passed an ammo and gun showbanare going to reverse Mulford and give you shall issue? And it would take 1 million dollars to put upfor a vote a RKBAamendment withquestionable chance of success.

    We'll have incorporation in June (fingers crossed) and then we'll have nothing but tactics to argue about. 'Till then...http://www.nationalcenter.org/Charge...htBrigade.html


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