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What to do with Calguns?

MudCamper

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In answer to the OP's question, there is nothing to do. CalGuns.net (CGN) is made up of it's members, 90 percent of which are good people. The problem is Kestryl. He bought CalGuns.net a few years ago, and it's now his sandbox, and he is a control freak who likes his petty power. We just have to put up with BS censorship and bias moding. Sadly, Kes has drivin off many good people over the years who we could use in our fight, and he continues to do so now.

And don't confuse CGF (CalGuns Foundation) with CGN (CalGuns.net). CGF was founded by some of the brightest minds on CGN. Yes, they put Kes on the CGF board, which IMO was a very BAD idea. But regardless CGF is a positive force doing more for 2A in CA then most gun orgs.
 

MudCamper

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wewd wrote:
They were all deleted, but most of the pages from that thread are available in the Google Cache. Click the "cached" link to view the deleted pages.
It's not quite all there, but a lot of it is. And I grabbed some other pieces from the google cache earlier. I'll piece together as much of it as I can later and put it up on COCDO.
 

cato

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Gentelman,

The whole battle ground changes after if McDonald is decided in our favor. Constitutional jurisprudence dictates the once recognized that RKBA can not be taxed, possibly can be licensed/regulated, and the method of bearing might be left up to state law (open or concealed).

I don't personally agree with the latter, as I would prefer an unregulated Open Carry right as generally described in SCOTUS's DredScott ("carry arms where ever they went") and Robertson v Baldwin ("laws prohibiting concealed weapons do not violate the 2A"). But it is likely states like TX and FL will pass constitutional muster.

I agree with all the above idealistic views on Rights and bearing arms openly to secure that right for all posterity that have been eloquently expressed. But where we seem to have a disconnect is the understanding of prospects for positive changes in Sacramentoand public opinion in the current situation and later absent successin McDonald.

My money is on McDonald and Gura/CGF. My vision and their's includes LOC. Waiting for the situation which launched successful OC in both Ohio and Wisconsin, having a court protected Right, is the politicallyand judiciallywisest course of action. We need that Federal Judicial protection to have any hope of securing RKBA in our lifetime in CA. Anything else is pie in the sky wishful thinking. Sac will move fast to squash OC without a win at SCOTUS.
 

N6ATF

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cato wrote:
Gentelman,

The whole battle ground changes after if McDonald is decided in our favor. Constitutional jurisprudence dictates the once recognized the RKBA can not be taxed, possibly can be licensed/regulated, and the method of bearing might be left up to state law (open or concealed).

I don't personally agree with the latter, as I would prefer an unregulated Open Carry right as generally described in SCOTUS's DredScott ("carry arms where ever they went") and Robertson v Baldwin ("laws prohibiting concealed weapons do not violate the 2A"). But it is likely states like TX and FL will pass constitutional muster.

I agree with all the above idealistic views on Rights and bearing arms openly to secure that right for all posterity that have been eloquently expressed. But where we seem to have a disconnect is the understanding of prospects for positive changes in Sacramentoand public opinion in the current situation and later absent successin McDonald.

My money is on McDonald and Gura/CGF. My vision and there's includes LOC. Waiting for the situation which launched successful OC in both Ohio and Wisconsin, having a court protected Right, is the politicallyand judiciallywisest course of action. We need that Federal Judicial protection to have any hope of securing RKBA in our lifetime in CA. Anything else is pie in the sky wishful thinking. Sac will move fast to squash OC without a win at SCOTUS.
I still wonder why the message is being sent to the legislature via Sykes that first and foremost, we want the RKBA as a taxed privilege that few can afford (either morally or financially). Will the (or can the) complaint be amended once the RKBA is incorporated to pray for permanent relief from CCW taxation?

If UOC/626.9 were two of the first things to be targeted to bring us back to tax-free LOC statewide, then I could say to myself, yeah, the RKBA for all, no matter the race, color, creed, or tax bracket, is being restored here. But as it stands, it looks like we will have to suffer with the PKBA for years to come.
 

cato

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coolusername2007 wrote:
I think it would be much easier to reverse the Mulford Act than it would be to win CCW. But, hey what do I know, I think passing a state constitutional amendment is easierthan incorporating 2A to all the states.


I want what your smoken!:p

The same people who passed an ammo and gun showbanare going to reverse Mulford and give you shall issue? And it would take 1 million dollars to put upfor a vote a RKBAamendment withquestionable chance of success.

We'll have incorporation in June (fingers crossed) and then we'll have nothing but tactics to argue about. 'Till then...http://www.nationalcenter.org/ChargeoftheLightBrigade.html
 

greg36ff

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yelohamr wrote:
cato wrote:
yelohamr wrote:
Thanks, but I don't drink when I'm armed.


I do but alright then, grass smoothy, root beer, iced tea...?:)
I'll pass. Maybe someone at Calguns will drink with you.

It's rude close minded stuff like this that damages the cause and divides us.......The man is reaching out to explain his side and you shut the door with a slam……..We already know where you stand,,,no need to be obnoxious…..
 

coolusername2007

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greg36ff wrote:
yelohamr wrote:
cato wrote:
yelohamr wrote:
Thanks, but I don't drink when I'm armed.


I do but alright then, grass smoothy, root beer, iced tea...?:)
I'll pass. Maybe someone at Calguns will drink with you.

It's rude close minded stuff like this that damages the cause and divides us.......The man is reaching out to explain his side and you shut the door with a slam……..We already know where you stand,,,no need to be obnoxious…..
I am an expert pinch drinker. Cato say when and where. :cool:
 

coolusername2007

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cato wrote:
coolusername2007 wrote:
I think it would be much easier to reverse the Mulford Act than it would be to win CCW. But, hey what do I know, I think passing a state constitutional amendment is easierthan incorporating 2A to all the states.


I want what your smoken!:p
Let me qualify my statement. "I think it would have been much easier..." How much time has passed since the passing of the Mulford Act? How much damage has been done to the 2A since? How many people have been prosecuted and persecuted since? How much money has been spent defending oneself? Add it all up and I stand by my statement.

I'll still take what your buying! :cool:
 

cato

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N6ATF wrote:
I still wonder why the message is being sent to the legislature via Sykes that first and foremost, we want the RKBA a taxed privilege so that few can afford (either morally or financially) to do it. Will the (or can the) complaint be amended once the RKBA is incorporated that strikes down CCW taxation?

If UOC/626.9 were two of the first things to be targeted to bring us back to tax-free LOC statewide, then I could say to myself, yeah, the RKBA for all, no matter race, color, creed, or tax bracket, is being restored here. But as it stands, it looks like we will have to suffer with the PKBA for years to come.



Very good questions! We are not going for the whole kit and caboodle with one bear case. The best chances of success come with keeping the issues simple and clear before the court. After all they are addressing this for the FIRST time. They get to decide what the Right encompasses.

Heller is a great example. Ask for too many idealistic things and you might have lost the swing vote (kiss RKBA away). Heller won the core of home possession and established some basic principles. Heller was awarded a license although licensing of a right was not addressed by the court in that case. Heller also was the only surviving plaintiff. You may recall the case which won in the DC appeals court was called "Parker". Heller made it to the Supremes BECAUSE he was the only plaintiff who applied for a DC carry license and was denied.

The courts may allow licensing of RKBA. But to insure the greatest chances for success it makes jurisprudential logic to ask for the same as the Supremes awarded Heller (the only case law we have on the 2A which we can rely on to influence lower courts)

Now down at the district and appeals level in the 9th circuit we in Sykes are asking for a license which exempts the bearer from 12031 and 626.9 and 171b PC. Going straight for a kill on 12031 and 626.9 would likely end in the case being dismissed as there is an avenue (licensing) to be exempt and exercise your right. Do we agree with that? No. But the courts are likely to permit regulation IF you have a method of exercising the protected activity (a license).

That is why Sykes is what it is. Sykes is also a LOC case for if it becomes shall issue then loaded and exposed licenses are shall issue. And now entersequal protection jurisprudence. Is it fair that someone in Shasta County gets to have a loaded and exposed license and you inSan Diego can't? Future caseswill also address the fees (taxes). Some day licenses may get found to be unconstitutional too.

Licenses also are only good for pistols in CA. What if you have a long arm? Long arm carry inTexas is OC.Reenter equal protection issues again. What sense is mandating concealed carry only iflong arms are openly carried. What about people from out of state? There are a whole host of issue to be litigated. Once McDonald opens the flood gates NATIONALLY things will progress at lightning speed (lightning court speed that is).


I'm not a constitutional attorney. But I do trust Alan Gura, a very young man, to get as much of his game plan through as possible. And that game plan will naturallychange as new case law points the way to the next target (low hanging fruit).


We are only 7 months away from a McDonald decision. We have NEVER had a RKBA in CA. Is it too much to ask to stand down on UOC, to not tempt our enemies to ban OC, and to preserve UOC as lawful so it can be used as political leverage tool post McDonald? That's not a lot of time to ask for. It is not a lot to ask members of OCDO to be part of the coalition team and wait for the word. We all do want the same thing.
 

cato

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coolusername2007 wrote:
Let me qualify my statement. "I think it would have been much easier..." How much time has passed since the passing of the Mulford Act? How much damage has been done to the 2A since? How many people have been prosecuted and persecuted since? How much money has been spent defending oneself? Add it all up and I stand by my statement.

I'll still take what your buying! :cool:

Fair enough. But I wish the Republicans who passed Mulford and Republican Gov. Ronald Reagan who signed it had been constitutionally honest and had any Black Panther criminal issues dealt with via normal criminal charges and not a loaded ban.

And yet it's taken all the time since then (and gun control as an experiment post the Kennedy brother'sassassinations) for the RKBA arms movement to build up steam. The 70's saw the DC handgun ban. We have the '86machine gun ban. '96 expired "assault" weapon ban. The pendulumstarted to swing back our waywith the CCW movement in Florida in the 80s. "Right to carry" (ya I know privilege to carry) swept the country afterwords.2Ascholarship also set the stage for Heller's victory.

So Idon't know if CA was ready or thecountry for that matter to move at a faster pace then what has transpired.

My only real wish is the the 2nd A had gottenit's due in the19th Century.I think we would have gotten a muchbroader judicial philosophythen we will get now when we are trying to play catch up and get rid of laws many judges will find way of justifying.
 

N6ATF

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Even with Sykes decided fully in our favor as currently briefed, those in CCW tax counties still couldn't get a CCW from another county's CLEO if CCWs were free there (if he were a 2A supporter, ha!), right?

Even if we're only 7 months away from a McDonald decision, the calls to stop UOC started months earlier, and UOC itself had been going on for years(?) before that. The worst that can be alleged to have come out of years of UOC is the 1,000' to 1,500' 626.9 extension, which hasn't even been signed yet.

I have a lot more fear that certain case law in our favor is going to tell the legislature to redouble their efforts just like DC did to keep on screwing the plaintiff, and all law-abiding gun owners bloody. Then it'll be bandaging each new wound we get instead of doing plastic surgery to remove the old festering pustules with no visible scarring. And unlike DC, the CA legislature "budgets" as if they print money, which means as long as they are not in prison, they will keep writing victim disarmament laws that need to be defended in court by the AG and outside counsel.
 

cato

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N6ATF wrote:
Even with Sykes decided fully in our favor as currently briefed, those in CCW tax counties still couldn't get a CCW from another county's CLEO if CCWs were free there (if he were a 2A supporter, ha!), right?

9th Circuit case law will be good in ALL the western 9th C. states. There will be follow up cases and Ca will drag it's feetwhere it can but even DC has back peddled when faced with a winning case (DC's failed adoption of CA's handgun roster for example). I think the various jurisdictions in Ca will fall into step post victory.

"Taxes" are not an issue in Sykes. In light of CA choosing to ban loaded carry they are asking for "good cause" to be nothing less then your 2A right of self defense. This also allows the court to recognize the right while doing the least damage to existing law (a judicial practice). Sykes really backs the courts into a corner on bear which is why I find it so brilliant. The court could also just find 12031 unconstitutional butsince at this time a license is available, which exempts the bearer from the laws, the court will award a license and follow SCOTUS' lead until such time as SCOTUS does differently.
 

N6ATF

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cato wrote:
N6ATF wrote:
Even with Sykes decided fully in our favor as currently briefed, those in CCW tax counties still couldn't get a CCW from another county's CLEO if CCWs were free there (if he were a 2A supporter, ha!), right?

9th Circuit case law will be good in ALL the western 9th C. states. There will be follow up cases and Ca will drag it's feetwhere it can but even DC has back peddled when faced with a winning case (DC's failed adoption of CA's handgun roster for example). I think the various jurisdictions in Ca will fall into step post victory.

"Taxes" are not an issue in Sykes.
Exactly, which is why not only should the residency restrictions in Sac and Yolo be struck down, county residency requirement should be shot down completely.

A resident of a taxed CCW apartheid of civil rights county such as LA, OC, or San Diego, should be able to obtain a CCW from a county that doesn't tax (if such a unicorn exists).
 

NightOwl

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technique wrote:
Man, guys...its dead in the Idaho section of this forum. Leave Ca and it looks like I'm still stuck with you guys!:p
Idaho has what CA wants. Unlicensed, loaded open carry, with shall issue CCW. State law restrictions are few and far between. It's rare for us to be hassled in Idaho, so not as much to post about as here.
 

yelohamr

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greg36ff wrote:
yelohamr wrote:
cato wrote:
yelohamr wrote:
Thanks, but I don't drink when I'm armed.


I do but alright then, grass smoothy, root beer, iced tea...?:)
I'll pass. Maybe someone at Calguns will drink with you.

It's rude close minded stuff like this that damages the cause and divides us.......The man is reaching out to explain his side and you shut the door with a slam……..We already know where you stand,,,no need to be obnoxious…..

When you come to this forum, trying to convert UOCers to the mindset of calguns, as far as I'm concerned you're just pissing into the wind.

I've been around for over 60 years, more than a third of that time in LE. I've survived all the gunfights and ambushes. I still have nightmares about those, but this little war of wordsis nothing.

You haven't seen rude and obnoixious yet. If you think this is, you need go to your local beauty supply and stock up on Acme Skin Thickener.

P.S. Bite me. (now that was sorta rude)
 

demnogis

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yelohamr, ever see the movie No Country For Old Men? :lol:

All joking aside, I think they were just trying to say that even though things on the Calguns side have been moderately anti-UOC (at this time), we have been stating we want full 2A, not just the taxed and licensed kind.

yelohamr wrote:
greg36ff wrote:
yelohamr wrote:
cato wrote:
yelohamr wrote:
Thanks, but I don't drink when I'm armed.


I do but alright then, grass smoothy, root beer, iced tea...?:)
I'll pass. Maybe someone at Calguns will drink with you.

It's rude close minded stuff like this that damages the cause and divides us.......The man is reaching out to explain his side and you shut the door with a slam……..We already know where you stand,,,no need to be obnoxious…..

When you come to this forum, trying to convert UOCers to the mindset of calguns, as far as I'm concerned you're just pissing into the wind.

I've been around for over 60 years, more than a third of that time in LE. I've survived all the gunfights and ambushes. I still have nightmares about those, but this little war of wordsis nothing.

You haven't seen rude and obnoixious yet. If you think this is, you need go to your local beauty supply and stock up on Acme Skin Thickener.

P.S. Bite me. (now that was sorta rude)
 

cato

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yelohamr wrote:
When you come to this forum, trying to convert UOCers to the mindset of calguns, as far as I'm concerned you're just pissing into the wind.

Thank you for your LE service.

My argument must beresonating with some as about 85% of the UOCers I'm aware of have stood down (the majority in SD all most ALL of the "pathfinders" - those of us who got this whole thing started a few years ago) awaiting court decisions and re-evaluation of the situation at that time.

All the activity in Sunnyvale is greatPOST establishment of a Right. The status of it being a Right is what has allowed the OC movement nationally to spread from a firm foundation. But right now in CA all the Press and LE attention is doing is rallying ANTIs in Sac.and tipping our hand.

Maybe I should stop using military references and try poker analogies?
 

yelohamr

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"yelohamr, ever see the movie No Country For Old Men? :lol:"



Yep, at 1st I thought it was about me. But then I noticed that Tommy Lee Jones isn't as handsome as me and realized it was only fiction . :lol::lol:
 
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