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Thread: Tennesse libraries move to ban gun carry

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    I wonder what librarians would say of gun stores banned books?

    news article: http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/no...ng-your-weapon

    Blog: http://paulsnewsline.blogspot.com/20...r-library.html

    Monday, November 23, 2009
    Open Carry @ Your Library

    Link to November 20 knoxnews.com post, "Gunning for a library book? Better not bring your weapon". (via LIS News)

    Excerpt: After an incident two weeks ago at its Fountain City branch, the Knox County Public Library system has posted signs prohibiting handguns and any weapon at its branches.

    Such a sign has been posted for decades at the Lawson McGhee Library in downtown Knoxville, but not at the 17 branch libraries, said Larry Frank, director of the library system.

    Frank said he wrote a memo to Knox County Law Director Bill Lockett about the handgun policy in libraries after a man came into the Fountain City library with a “visibly holstered handgun.”

    “Although the patron questioned library policies, he was not disruptive in any way and did not behave in any manner that could otherwise be perceived as threatening,” Frank wrote. “The situation did make members of my staff and other library patrons uncomfortable.

    “I’m appalled that someone would even consider it. It was only one incident, and it was just the idea. We do not allow guns in the library, no firearms or any weapon in the library.”

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Tennessee's preemption statute would seem to prevent localities from enacting new laws regulating the possession, ownership or transportation of firearms and ammunition. Local ordinances passed before 1986 are grandfathered by the law. But most aspects of licensed handgun carry are regulated exclusively by the state.

    Have to ask if there was an ordinance/statute on the books prior to 1986 that would then allow this?

    Yata hey
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    What was the "incident"? I see no incident here.

    Perhaps someone needs some "desensitivity" training at the local range.

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    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    Tennesse's Handgun Carry Permit allows for either Concealed or Open Carry. The guy was carrying a holstered handgun. So What? The spokesman even mentioned that they guy didn't cause any problems but they still decide to ban them anyway. That is just wrong.
    President/ Founding Member
    Louisiana Open Carry Awareness League
    www.laopencarry.org

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    Hey guys, found out a little more details for you all. First, it turns out that it happened twice at two different libraries. Supposedly, (my commissioner was told this by someone else, so take it with a grain of salt) two men (not sure if it was the same guy at different libraries) walked through the libraries with open, holstered guns to make the point they could do that. After a while the library staff questioned if they had a permit, they did, and they left-from my understanding. Nothing happened at all. The libraries are now posted, but not legally (the wording is not anywhere close to what TN code 39-17-1359 requires to be legally posted.) What the funny part is, if they actually posted legally, every one who carried a knife (pocket, plastic, metal nail files, etc) would be committing a felony! Yeah, the brain trust is working hard at the library!

    BTW, there wasn't an ordnance passed to post. The library director got approval from the County Mayor (my understanding from the article) and posted. That is totally legal to do, just shameful considering my tax dollars pay for the library. Hopefully, within a week or two the issue will be resolved and the library will be "cowering" under his desk because people will be allowed to carry again (that was not a threat, just a joke.)

    Matthew

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    macville wrote:
    Hey guys, found out a little more details for you all. First, it turns out that it happened twice at two different libraries. Supposedly, (my commissioner was told this by someone else, so take it with a grain of salt) two men (not sure if it was the same guy at different libraries) walked through the libraries with open, holstered guns to make the point they could do that. After a while the library staff questioned if they had a permit, they did, and they left-from my understanding. Nothing happened at all. The libraries are now posted, but not legally (the wording is not anywhere close to what TN code 39-17-1359 requires to be legally posted.) What the funny part is, if they actually posted legally, every one who carried a knife (pocket, plastic, metal nail files, etc) would be committing a felony! Yeah, the brain trust is working hard at the library!

    BTW, there wasn't an ordnance passed to post. The library director got approval from the County Mayor (my understanding from the article) and posted. That is totally legal to do, just shameful considering my tax dollars pay for the library. Hopefully, within a week or two the issue will be resolved and the library will be "cowering" under his desk because people will be allowed to carry again (that was not a threat, just a joke.)

    Matthew
    OK, sounds like you can open carry in that localitiy so how about a meet up at te council meetin to petition the government to "tear down those signs"!

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    Apparently there needs to be a new version of this sign:

    Brady Campaign Against Literacy
    You Don't Need To Read

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    macville wrote:
    Hey guys, found out a little more details for you all. First, it turns out that it happened twice at two different libraries. Supposedly, (my commissioner was told this by someone else, so take it with a grain of salt) two men (not sure if it was the same guy at different libraries) walked through the libraries with open, holstered guns to make the point they could do that. After a while the library staff questioned if they had a permit, they did, and they left-from my understanding. Nothing happened at all. The libraries are now posted, but not legally (the wording is not anywhere close to what TN code 39-17-1359 requires to be legally posted.) What the funny part is, if they actually posted legally, every one who carried a knife (pocket, plastic, metal nail files, etc) would be committing a felony! Yeah, the brain trust is working hard at the library!

    BTW, there wasn't an ordnance passed to post. The library director got approval from the County Mayor (my understanding from the article) and posted. That is totally legal to do, just shameful considering my tax dollars pay for the library. Hopefully, within a week or two the issue will be resolved and the library will be "cowering" under his desk because people will be allowed to carry again (that was not a threat, just a joke.)

    Matthew
    OK, maybe I'm just a little tired and don't get it.

    Please explain how "That is totally legal to do" in the face up state preemption.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Bubba Ron's Avatar
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    Another Gun Free Zone - do these highly educated people REALLY think that their signswill stop criminals from entering and killing innocent people, especially when there will beno one to stop them???When will they ever get their heads out of the sand???

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    macville wrote:
    Hey guys, found out a little more details for you all. First, it turns out that it happened twice at two different libraries. Supposedly, (my commissioner was told this by someone else, so take it with a grain of salt) two men (not sure if it was the same guy at different libraries) walked through the libraries with open, holstered guns to make the point they could do that. After a while the library staff questioned if they had a permit, they did, and they left-from my understanding. Nothing happened at all. The libraries are now posted, but not legally (the wording is not anywhere close to what TN code 39-17-1359 requires to be legally posted.) What the funny part is, if they actually posted legally, every one who carried a knife (pocket, plastic, metal nail files, etc) would be committing a felony! Yeah, the brain trust is working hard at the library!

    BTW, there wasn't an ordnance passed to post. The library director got approval from the County Mayor (my understanding from the article) and posted. That is totally legal to do, just shameful considering my tax dollars pay for the library. Hopefully, within a week or two the issue will be resolved and the library will be "cowering" under his desk because people will be allowed to carry again (that was not a threat, just a joke.)

    Matthew
    OK, maybe I'm just a little tired and don't get it.

    Please explain how "That is totally legal to do" in the face up state preemption.

    Yata hey
    I was wondering about that too given the director apparently is subordinate to the Mayor's Office. Ostensibly, that would make the library a public facility and a political subdivision.

    We know those are subject to typical pre-emption laws.

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    darthmord wrote:
    I was wondering about that too given the director apparently is subordinate to the Mayor's Office. Ostensibly, that would make the library a public facility and a political subdivision.

    We know those are subject to typical pre-emption laws.
    I considering that the library director couldn't figure out what the correct sign was to post, he probably didn't realize he could post without the mayor's permission. Since the posting wasn't done because of a resolution/ordnance and TN code 39-17-1359 says that local governments can post gov buildings in accordance with "-1359" it's totally legal sadly enough. Our City County Building is posted legally, but really the reason for that is you aren't legally allowed to carry in a courtroom, so it would cost a crap load of money to have metal detectors at each courtroom door--not to mention that hearings don't always happen in a courtroom, because many civil matters (like custody hearings) happen in the judge's office.

    If the issue is going to be decided by ANYONE (and it shouldn't, it should be legal to carry there), it should be by our County commission.

    Matthew

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    macville wrote:
    TN code 39-17-1359 says that local governments can post gov buildings in accordance with "-1359" it's totally legal sadly enough.
    well, maybe, and there is an atty gen. op. that agrees with you at http://tennessee.gov/attorneygeneral...04/op/op20.pdf ("Local government entities in Tennessee are prohibited from regulating the transfer, ownership, possession or transportation of firearms, ammunition or components of firearms. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1314(a). However, under Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359(a), local governments have been granted the power to determine if they wish to allow weapons on their property."), butI am looking at the text of 39-17-1359 below and it is arguable that the power of localities in TN to ban gun carry is limited to "meetings."

    Looking at the caption of the statute along with the grammar of sub-section a, is sure looks like to me the intent was oriented onlyat "meetings."

    Apparently no court case has yet costrued the reach of 39-17-1359.

    Are there any TN individuals or groups which might want to file a lawsuit to have these library gun bans declared invalid?

    --



    39-17-1359. Prohibition at certain meetings — Posting notice. —

    (a) An individual, corporation, business entity or local, state or federal government entity or agent thereof is authorized to prohibit the possession of weapons by any person otherwise authorized by §§ 39-17-1351 — 39-17-1360, at meetings
    conducted by, or on property owned, operated, or managed or under the control of the individual, corporation, business entity or government entity. Notice of the prohibition shall be posted. Posted notices shall be displayed in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the building, portion of the building or buildings where weapon possession is prohibited. If the possession of weapons is also prohibited on the premises of the property as well as within the confines of a building located on the property, the notice shall be posted at all entrances to the premises that are primarily used by persons entering the property. The notice shall be in English but a notice may also be posted in any language used by patrons, customers or persons who frequent the place where weapon possession is prohibited. In addition to the sign, notice may also include the international circle and slash symbolizing the prohibition of the item within the circle. The sign shall be of a size that is plainly visible to the average person entering the building, premises or property and shall contain language substantially similar to the following:


    PURSUANT TO § 39-17-1359, THE OWNER/OPERATOR OF THIS PROPERTY HAS BANNED WEAPONS ON THIS PROPERTY, OR WITHIN THIS BUILDING OR THIS PORTION OF THIS BUILDING. FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THIS PROHIBITION IS PUNISHABLE AS A CRIMINAL ACT UNDER STATE LAW AND MAY SUBJECT THE VIOLATOR TO A FINE OF NOT MORE THAN FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS ($500).


    (b) Nothing in this section shall be construed to alter, reduce or eliminate any civil or criminal liability that a property owner or manager may have for injuries arising on their property.


    (c) Any posted notice being used by a local, state or federal governmental entity on July 1, 2000, that is in substantial compliance with the provisions of subsection (a) of this section may continue to be used by the governmental entity.


    (d) The provisions of this section shall not apply to title 70 regarding wildlife laws, rules and regulations.


    (e) This section shall not apply to the grounds of any public park, natural area, historic park, nature trail, campground, forest, greenway, waterway or other similar public place that is owned or operated by the state, a county, a municipality or instrumentality thereof. The carrying of firearms in those areas shall be governed by § 39-17-1311.


    [Acts 1996, ch. 905, § 11; 2000, ch. 929, § 1; 2009, ch. 428, § 4.]


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    Bubba Ron wrote:
    Another Gun Free Zone - do these highly educated people REALLY think that their signswill stop criminals from entering and killing innocent people, especially when there will beno one to stop them???When will they ever get their heads out of the sand???
    The time for using ignorance as a valid defense has long since passed. They are evil and they want massacres with as high a body count as possible.

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    "We do not allow guns in the library, no firearms or any weapon in the library.”

    That means bad guys cannot carry there? Oh, My!

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    macville wrote:
    Hey guys, found out a little more details for you all. First, it turns out that it happened twice at two different libraries. Supposedly, (my commissioner was told this by someone else, so take it with a grain of salt) two men (not sure if it was the same guy at different libraries) walked through the libraries with open, holstered guns to make the point they could do that. After a while the library staff questioned if they had a permit, they did, and they left-from my understanding. Nothing happened at all. The libraries are now posted, but not legally (the wording is not anywhere close to what TN code 39-17-1359 requires to be legally posted.) What the funny part is, if they actually posted legally, every one who carried a knife (pocket, plastic, metal nail files, etc) would be committing a felony! Yeah, the brain trust is working hard at the library!

    BTW, there wasn't an ordnance passed to post. The library director got approval from the County Mayor (my understanding from the article) and posted. That is totally legal to do, just shameful considering my tax dollars pay for the library. Hopefully, within a week or two the issue will be resolved and the library will be "cowering" under his desk because people will be allowed to carry again (that was not a threat, just a joke.)

    Matthew
    OK, maybe I'm just a little tired and don't get it.

    Please explain how "That is totally legal to do" in the face up state preemption.

    Yata hey
    According to Tn Statutes, County and municipalitities can bar carry of firearms in public buildings within their jurisdictions. Public libraries are public buildings owned and operated by county or city.

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    Hey Ocers I wanted to add that the library may be funded by taxes but it can still be a private org so they pretty much can make their whole higher learning lives a CPZ.

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    According to Tn Statutes, County and municipalitities can bar carry of firearms in public buildings within their jurisdictions.
    Well, that's where I am not so sure - see the relevant discussion of Code Section 39-17-1359 above - though an AG opinion makes the conclusory statement that the power of localities to ban gun carry at meetings means they can ban it at all building sall the time, that does not necessarily follow from the statute - a court might agree with the AG or it might not - seems to me the grammar and structure of 39-17-1359, when viewed with the preemption statute, arguably lends itself to limit the power of localities to ban gun carry on at meetings.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    Sounds like the guy lives with a bogeyman under his bed. He is simply looking for an imaginary problem.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    Sounds like the guy lives with a bogeyman under his bed. He is simply looking for an imaginary problem.
    So many of our gun laws fit the trite expression of "a solution looking for a problem."

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    The problem with TN is the laws are unclear, confusing, and contradictary. There was no law law that said handguns couldn't be carried into a park and a judge said it was against the law. Laws say parks must now be posted to prohibit carrying of handguns, but most are not posted and the AG says they don't have to be posted. Schools are supposed to be posted too, but case law shows that they don't. The restaurant carry law was just declared unconstitutional because it was vague. We have a law that says you're not to be convicted if you use a gun on school property in self defense. Last year a man who used his gun on school grounds for self defense was convicted. I have no doubt that anyone carrying a handgun into a library which was posted would be convicted.

    When Tennessee put together the permit system of carry back in 1994 they should have done a better job writing the laws, but they didn't. They continue to write confusing laws. I'm to the point that I think they are doing it on purpose.



    39-17-1359. Prohibition at certain meetings — Posting notice. —

    (a) An individual, corporation, business entity or local, state or federal government entity or agent thereof is authorized to prohibit the possession of weapons by any person otherwise authorized by §§ 39-17-1351 — 39-17-1360, at meetings conducted by,or on property owned, operated, or managed or under the control of the individual, corporation, business entity or government entity.




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    Regular Member pro2A's Avatar
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    Maybe it's just me but I thought Tennessee had pre-emption which would prevent the government from banning guns in public buildings...

    But then again I'm weird like that.

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    pro2A wrote:
    Maybe it's just me but I thought Tennessee had pre-emption which would prevent the government from banning guns in public buildings...

    But then again I'm weird like that.
    Preemption statutes, like the U.S. Constitution, are just something for the traitor gun banners to print on their toilet paper.

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    pro2A wrote:
    Maybe it's just me but I thought Tennessee had pre-emption which would prevent the government from banning guns in public buildings...

    But then again I'm weird like that.
    Not really. The laws say they can post to prohibit carry. The law also says if they have a law older than 1986 it may stand.



    "SECTION 3. Tennessee Code Annotated, Section 39-17-1314, is amended by

    deleting the first sentence of subsection (a) and substituting instead the following:

    Except as provided in § 39-17-1311(d), which allows counties and

    municipalities to prohibit the possession of handguns while within or on a public

    park, natural area, historic park, nature trail, campground, forest, greenway,

    waterway or other similar public place that is owned or operated by a county, a

    municipality or instrumentality thereof, no city, county, or metropolitan

    government shall occupy any part of the field of regulation of the transfer,

    ownership, possession or transportation of firearms, ammunition or components

    of firearms or combinations thereof; provided, that the provisions of this section

    shall be prospective only and shall not affect the validity of any ordinance or

    resolution lawfully enacted before April 8, 1986."

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    kwikrnu wrote:
    pro2A wrote:
    Maybe it's just me but I thought Tennessee had pre-emption which would prevent the government from banning guns in public buildings...

    But then again I'm weird like that.
    Not really. The laws say they can post to prohibit carry. The law also says if they have a law older than 1986 it may stand.
    So is their law from before 1986 or not?

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    have a law older than 1986 it may stand
    So is their law from before 1986 or not?

    Yata hey
    There's can't be a law for Knox County libraries banning weapons from pre 1986 because the county wasn't incorporated yet. I've been talking with my commissioner about the library ban, but haven't hear anything from him within the past few days. Need to write our lousy county mayor and yap at him for not standing behind the 2d amendment--not to mention that if they actually post correctly (which they have not) all knives are also illegal.

    Matthew

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