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Thread: Another victory for 'Zero Tolerance'

  1. #1
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    Forward this one far and wide.

    Score another victory for "Zero Tolerance"

    http://www.examiner.com/x-4525-Seattle-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m11d23-Another-victory-for-Zero-tolerance

    Or try this:

    http://tinyurl.com/y9rms5x



    We all got our start with firearms somewhere. Some of us grew up with them as teens. We never had to put up with crap like this.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    That is absolutely OUTRAGEOUS!

    Really hope that they will file suit against the school.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    "Zero tolerance" is just PC newspeak for thoughtless, knee-jerk and reflex and instinct and Pavlovian training. It is Barbara Streisand Oprah speak.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    I would wager the school board broke the law on this one. A serious lawsuit seems to be in need here, including naming individuals such as the principle as defendants.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    The student was still in possession of the shotguns while on school property. His truck, and thus the shotguns, were off-campus, yes, but he was still "in possession" of them via having the keys, presumably, on his person, with the firearms in them, within easy access of the school.

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    Regular Member Riana's Avatar
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    It certainly smacks of an illegal search to me.

    So you mean to tell me that if a man's car is stolen, and the thief leaves an unloaded shotgun in the trunk and parked it in a public lot that the school decided to search, if the victim has a child at that school, that child could be expelled? That is how this zero tolerance philsophy works out.

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    Regular Member Riana's Avatar
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    Armond Reese wrote:
    The student was still in possession of the shotguns while on school property. His truck, and thus the shotguns, were off-campus, yes, but he was still "in possession" of them via having the keys, presumably, on his person, with the firearms in them, within easy access of the school.
    I sure hope that isn't the case. That would imply that I am always in possession of a firearm on school grounds, because I live near the school and have a key to my house.



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    Riana wrote:
    Armond Reese wrote:
    The student was still in possession of the shotguns while on school property. His truck, and thus the shotguns, were off-campus, yes, but he was still "in possession" of them via having the keys, presumably, on his person, with the firearms in them, within easy access of the school.
    I sure hope that isn't the case. That would imply that I am always in possession of a firearm on school grounds, because I live near the school and have a key to my house.

    Hey, I'm just using school logic.

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    Armond Reese wrote:
    The student was still in possession of the shotguns while on school property. His truck, and thus the shotguns, were off-campus, yes, but he was still "in possession" of them via having the keys, presumably, on his person, with the firearms in them, within easy access of the school.
    Then I suppose he would have been 'in possession' of the shotgun just the same had it been located at home (another item he has the keys to?)

    Edit: Doh, Riana beat me to it.

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    Regular Member UtahJarhead's Avatar
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    Friend of mine posted this to his blog 2 days ago. On this post, it's got the addresses and phone numbers of the school administrators involved in case people want to show support to this kid. PLEASE keep it civil when speaking to them. Spouting off isn't going to help him!

    http://nwfreethinker.blogspot.com/20...alousness.html

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    Thoreau wrote:
    Armond Reese wrote:
    The student was still in possession of the shotguns while on school property. His truck, and thus the shotguns, were off-campus, yes, but he was still "in possession" of them via having the keys, presumably, on his person, with the firearms in them, within easy access of the school.
    Then I suppose he would have been 'in possession' of the shotgun just the same had it been located at home (another item he has the keys to?)

    Edit: Doh, Riana beat me to it.
    Vehicle != Home

  12. #12
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    Armond Reese wrote:
    Riana wrote:
    Armond Reese wrote:
    The student was still in possession of the shotguns while on school property. His truck, and thus the shotguns, were off-campus, yes, but he was still "in possession" of them via having the keys, presumably, on his person, with the firearms in them, within easy access of the school.
    I sure hope that isn't the case. That would imply that I am always in possession of a firearm on school grounds, because I live near the school and have a key to my house.
    Hey, I'm just using school logic. <--- Sadly, you don't see much of that anymore

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    Armond Reese wrote:
    Thoreau wrote:
    Armond Reese wrote:
    The student was still in possession of the shotguns while on school property. His truck, and thus the shotguns, were off-campus, yes, but he was still "in possession" of them via having the keys, presumably, on his person, with the firearms in them, within easy access of the school.
    Then I suppose he would have been 'in possession' of the shotgun just the same had it been located at home (another item he has the keys to?)

    Edit: Doh, Riana beat me to it.
    Vehicle != Home
    And 'in vehicle' != possession

  14. #14
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    As an adult student attending a university in pursuit of a Masters Degree, this case has disturbing implications for me and thousands of other law-abiding adult firearms owners around the country.

    I never carry on campus, because even with my CHP, carrying on school property is prohibited in NC. I rarely even leave my pistol locked up in my truck which I park SEVERAL blocks off-campus) because I don't want to have to worry about some putz breaking into my vehicle while I'm in class and making off with my prized Para. When I go to classes, I usually just leave my firearm at home. I don't like to do that, but it's my only alternative, considering the high rate of vehicle B&E in Greenville, and the potential penelties I may suffer if caught with a firearm (as a student, the penelties are MUCH higher than for non-students).

    If this DOES go to court, and the school wins, this would set a liberty-threatening precedent.

    Because then we would have to worry about the fact that even though our vehicles are parked off campus and our guns are locked up inside the vehicle, the moment we set foot on campus, we are in violation of state law because according to the "logic" of this school, we are still "in possession" of said firearm.

    This has the potential to be a VERY bad situation for ALL gun owners. This policy (if more widely adopted by other school systems) would essentially ban ANYONE from setting foot on any school campus if they kept a firearm in their vehicle.

    Scary...

    If they take this one to court, I hope they establish a legal defense fund, because I will GLADLY contribute to getting this ridiculous ruling overturned. I would suggest ANYONE else who has children in school, or is currently attending or plannign to attend college should support this young man and his family in ANY WAY POSSIBLE...

    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Armond Reese wrote:
    The student was still in possession of the shotguns while on school property. His truck, and thus the shotguns, were off-campus, yes, but he was still "in possession" of them via having the keys, presumably, on his person, with the firearms in them, within easy access of the school.
    I have to disagree. He was not in possetion of weapons while on SCHOOL PROPERTY. I have guns in my home, I have the keys to my home on me.My workplace has a policy of no weapons on the premises. If my car is parked off the lot they have NOTHING to say legally or otherwise. They may try to make it sound like the school ZONE extends beyond its property line but in a court of law your property line is pretty much cut and dried.

    I will be looking forward to seeing the outcome of this one


    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    One could even take this to a different angle. In those states which have adopted a zero tolerance policy, which is just about as dumb as a toilet seat, if a student happens to have Tylenol or Midol on their person in a public school, they're hosed. Same for a saw or a screw driver. So to apply the logic of these idiots, if they left said items in their car off of school grounds, they could be in one heck of a fix.

    Just more proof that the inmates are running the show.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    bigdaddy1 wrote:
    Armond Reese wrote:
    The student was still in possession of the shotguns while on school property. His truck, and thus the shotguns, were off-campus, yes, but he was still "in possession" of them via having the keys, presumably, on his person, with the firearms in them, within easy access of the school.
    I have to disagree. He was not in possetion of weapons while on SCHOOL PROPERTY. I have guns in my home, I have the keys to my home on me.My workplace has a policy of no weapons on the premises. If my car is parked off the lot they have NOTHING to say legally or otherwise. They may try to make it sound like the school ZONE extends beyond its property line but in a court of law your property line is pretty much cut and dried.

    I will be looking forward to seeing the outcome of this one

    Hey, you're not disagreeing with me, I'm just trying to use their logic to try and rationalize their side.

    If you hit your head just right, it makes sense.

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    Dreamer wrote:
    As an adult student attending a university in pursuit of a Masters Degree, this case has disturbing implications for me and thousands of other law-abiding adult firearms owners around the country.

    I never carry on campus, because even with my CHP, carrying on school property is prohibited in NC. I rarely even leave my pistol locked up in my truck which I park SEVERAL blocks off-campus) because I don't want to have to worry about some putz breaking into my vehicle while I'm in class and making off with my prized Para. When I go to classes, I usually just leave my firearm at home. I don't like to do that, but it's my only alternative, considering the high rate of vehicle B&E in Greenville, and the potential penelties I may suffer if caught with a firearm (as a student, the penelties are MUCH higher than for non-students).

    If this DOES go to court, and the school wins, this would set a liberty-threatening precedent.

    Because then we would have to worry about the fact that even though our vehicles are parked off campus and our guns are locked up inside the vehicle, the moment we set foot on campus, we are in violation of state law because according to the "logic" of this school, we are still "in possession" of said firearm.

    This has the potential to be a VERY bad situation for ALL gun owners. This policy (if more widely adopted by other school systems) would essentially ban ANYONE from setting foot on any school campus if they kept a firearm in their vehicle.

    Scary...

    If they take this one to court, I hope they establish a legal defense fund, because I will GLADLY contribute to getting this ridiculous ruling overturned. I would suggest ANYONE else who has children in school, or is currently attending or plannign to attend college should support this young man and his family in ANY WAY POSSIBLE...
    You don't have to worry about it affecting you. Higher education is generally treated much differently. For one thing, basically everybody who attends college is directly paying the collegefor the privilege, and in addition, college students are usually of legal age, and therefore have many more rights within the education system than minor students.

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    Flyer22 wrote:
    Dreamer wrote:
    As an adult student attending a university in pursuit of a Masters Degree, this case has disturbing implications for me and thousands of other law-abiding adult firearms owners around the country.

    I never carry on campus, because even with my CHP, carrying on school property is prohibited in NC. I rarely even leave my pistol locked up in my truck which I park SEVERAL blocks off-campus) because I don't want to have to worry about some putz breaking into my vehicle while I'm in class and making off with my prized Para. When I go to classes, I usually just leave my firearm at home. I don't like to do that, but it's my only alternative, considering the high rate of vehicle B&E in Greenville, and the potential penelties I may suffer if caught with a firearm (as a student, the penelties are MUCH higher than for non-students).

    If this DOES go to court, and the school wins, this would set a liberty-threatening precedent.

    Because then we would have to worry about the fact that even though our vehicles are parked off campus and our guns are locked up inside the vehicle, the moment we set foot on campus, we are in violation of state law because according to the "logic" of this school, we are still "in possession" of said firearm.

    This has the potential to be a VERY bad situation for ALL gun owners. This policy (if more widely adopted by other school systems) would essentially ban ANYONE from setting foot on any school campus if they kept a firearm in their vehicle.

    Scary...

    If they take this one to court, I hope they establish a legal defense fund, because I will GLADLY contribute to getting this ridiculous ruling overturned. I would suggest ANYONE else who has children in school, or is currently attending or plannign to attend college should support this young man and his family in ANY WAY POSSIBLE...
    You don't have to worry about it affecting you. Higher education is generally treated much differently. For one thing, basically everybody who attends college is directly paying the collegefor the privilege, and in addition, college students are usually of legal age, and therefore have many more rights within the education system than minor students.
    Sorry, are we living in the same universe?

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I could ask the same question of yourself.

    That university students often may not, for example, carry guns, hardly puts them at the same level of rights infringement as underage attendees of mandatory public school.

    Warrantless drug dog searches, anyone? Detention without RAS? Etc etc etc.

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    marshaul wrote:
    Warrantless drug dog searches, anyone? Detention without RAS? Etc etc etc.
    Yep, sounds like college to me.

    Had the drug dogs through the dorms at IUP a few times while I was there (I lived off-campus, so I wasn't actually *there* there.)

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Armond Reese wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    Warrantless drug dog searches, anyone? Detention without RAS? Etc etc etc.
    Yep, sounds like college to me.

    Had the drug dogs through the dorms at IUP a few times while I was there (I lived off-campus, so I wasn't actually *there* there.)
    Keyword: dorms.

    I haven't lived in dorms, and consequently the only drug dogs I've seen were in my high school days.

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    marshaul wrote:
    Armond Reese wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    Warrantless drug dog searches, anyone? Detention without RAS? Etc etc etc.
    Yep, sounds like college to me.

    Had the drug dogs through the dorms at IUP a few times while I was there (I lived off-campus, so I wasn't actually *there* there.)
    Keyword: dorms.

    I haven't lived in dorms, and consequently the only drug dogs I've seen were in my high school days.
    Well, now you know.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Only children live in dorms.

    You have failed to cite relevant evidence. I'm talking classrooms, not dorm rooms.

    When you live in a dorm, you sign a contract stating you'll allow search of your possession at any time.

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    marshaul wrote:
    Only children live in dorms.

    You have failed to cite relevant evidence. I'm talking classrooms, not dorm rooms.

    When you live in a dorm, you sign a contract stating you'll allow search of your possession at any time.
    So you're arguing that despite me providing examples of 1:1 comparisons, they're not really comparisons because one is "children" and the other is... ....."children"?

    And if only children live in dorms, there must be a lot of children in colleges the world over.

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