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Thread: Please Do Not UOC At This Time

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...amp;postcount=

    After Incorporation and for tactical reasons, after Sykes or Palmer are final, then I'll be happy to hold LOC events in San Francisco...

    The reason this is a legal issue is that the right to carry arms in public is a right that only a minority support. Even in states where shall issue carry permits are the norm, not more than 5% of the population perform the simple steps to get one. Minorities can generally only turn to the courts for support.


    The open carry movement is an excellent idea to desensitize the public to the law abiding carrying firearms but for now its only wise in states that have a right to keep and bear arms in their state constitutions. The reason for that is that when the inevitable arrest or police harassment occurs, the OCer has leverage. Here in California the UOCer has been convicted, lest I need to remind you of that issue.

    -Gene

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    To expand on Gene's theme, minorities do not fare well in democracies especially if two wolves and a lambare voting on what to eat for dinner. Look at what homosexuals have had to deal with over the decades and yet even with their success promoting themselves in CA culture (and its taken DECADES), they still lost prop 8.

    UOCers, and in fact all of CA's gunowning interests,are also a political minority (an extremely small minority). Certainly changing that minority statusis a necessary and laudable goal. But societies change slowly. And in order to even have a chance to fully exercise our Rights in our lifetimewe will requirecourt protected minority status in CA.


    There is nothing that UOC can accomplish in the next 7 months before RKBA Incorporation that can't be done after. And yet while waiting for constitutionally protected status the RKBA isparticularly vulnerable to suffer further legislative defeat - a defeat which can andISbeing incited and encouraged by our visibility. There are LE agencies and politicians working to squash UOC, who will not be swayed by any peacefully educational UOC activities

    This is nothing less then a cost / benefits analysis. Is it worth it in the short term, a mere 7 months,to go into battle to reestablish our RKBA in Ca culture without ALL ofthe tools for a successful campaign? Waiting for incorporation is like waiting for NEEDED supplies and reinforcements before storming Normandy while planning for action.

    Please standdown on UOC and redirect your valuable and skillful dedication to this most important cause to other forms of outreach to buildup ourteams in anticipationof comingfuture action.



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    what is RKBA?

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    cato, i know you have a great wealth of knowledge when it comes to UOC. Waiting for the 2nd to be incorporated before carrying is understandable, but at the same time could be just a 7 month delay. i get what you are saying, and i have slowed down my day-to-day UOC, but i cant sit back and hope for rights that may or may not come about, this stance has led us to the position we are in today. incorporation would be great, but it could also never happen.

    to be honest, im a little upset that you are here on this opencarry forum telling people not to opencarry. it is almost troll-like. Just my feeling, please dont take offense to it.


    When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.

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    When I saw this thread, I thought...

    "Not ANOTHER calguns copy-paste anti-UOC fest. Spam, spam, SPAM!"

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    Personally I carry on a day to day basis to protect myself and my family. I have not and will not accept anybodies argument for me to weaken my defenses as my 2 year old sonslife is at stake.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...
    Stolen from ConditionThree because it can't be stressed enough.

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    dirtykoala wrote:
    ...to be honest, im a little upset that you are here on this opencarry forum telling people not to opencarry. it is almost troll-like. Just my feeling, please dont take offense to it.

    Are trolls a protected species? Is there a season and bag limit?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

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    dirtykoala wrote:
    to be honest, im a little upset that you are here on this opencarry forum telling people not to opencarry.

    I support Open Carry 110%,always have always will.

    But what I am selling and will continue to sell is what I, and many others here and else where believe is the strategy that will get us what we want. UOC is politically weak and it can't be built up fast enough to preserve OC in the short term. LOC as the National Right is also not certain based on general constitutional jurisprudence practices of allowing states to choose how to regulate rights above the Fed Const. minimum protections. The framework of CA law as we go into litigation, now underway and in the planning stages, will dictate those arguments we make. I want OC preserved so that it will play a substantial future roll in cementing our rights.

    I agree with Gene...

    The open carry movement is an excellent idea to desensitize the public to the law abiding carrying firearms...


    I want it preserved as an option for that reason as litigation moves forward and I want it to help establish an unregulated, untaxed OC Right in CA. We risk that by UOCing now.

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    expresstowal wrote:
    what is RKBA?
    short hand for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms - aka the 2A :celebrate

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    chewy352 wrote:
    Personally I carry on a day to day basis to protect myself and my family. I have not and will not accept anybodies argument for me to weaken my defenses as my 2 year old sonslife is at stake.

    And this is always the hardest argument to counter. After all, for what purpose do we profess to desire the peaceful carrying of arms? To protect life and all that is dear to us as sons, daughters, spouses and parents, and as loyal Americans!

    However, absent L in the OC equation, a LUCC is nearly as effective (absent deterrence) without thenegative down side of UOC bringing attentionof your carrying to unscrupulous prosecutors and judges (insert Theseus' experience and 10 year firearm prohibition). Not to mention the violation ofother rights and potential criminal liabilities that come from police stops thathappenBEFORE we can "convince" them that it's not in their best interest to violate a fundamental constitutional right.

    Again it's the liability/benefit discussion. You make that choice. I'm trying topresentthe bigger picture and give those who want to help preserve that picture other options to carry for SDin the mean time (LUCC - which personally I despise as I believe afree people carry openly -it's just that we are not free just yet)


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    yelohamr wrote:
    Are trolls a protected species?
    According to Mike' rule #.308 "trolls are a protected specieswith a post count of1666+ and a join date of 2006 or earlier". Boy I just made it.



    Is there a season and bag limit?
    Season is open and the weapons arewit, cunning, and logic...I'm still waiting for you to engage...:celebrate:quirky

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    dirtykoala wrote:
    rights that may or may not come about,
    We'll know shortly my brother! But if incorporation is a bust we are in for a world of hurt. :X (There are contingency plans in the works)

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    God forbid LUCC be recognized as a stopgap measure on the same page as the UOC warnings... in case we'd be forced to use our LUCC guns and get persecuted far above and beyond the letter and intent of the law, for being good Samaritans.

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    N6ATF wrote:
    God forbid LUCC be recognized as a stopgap measure on the same page as the UOC warnings... in case we'd be forced to use our LUCC guns and get persecuted far above and beyond the letter and intent of the law, for being good Samaritans.
    I do share your natural dislike of LUCC but absent choices of no hassle UOC/LOC/CCW, it's better then having it in the safe (bitting mycheek while pushingthat option). Legally it's pretty safe mostly because of the attention you don't get. Stick to justifyed uses only of course.

    And if one has never read "how to own a gun and stay out of jail" it is a must read on self defense and possession case law in CA.

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    cato wrote:
    yelohamr wrote:
    Are trolls a protected species?
    According to Mike' rule #.308 "trolls are a protected specieswith a post count of1666+ and a join date of 2006 or earlier". Boy I just made it.



    Is there a season and bag limit?
    Season is open and the weapons arewit, cunning, and logic...I'm still waiting for you to engage...:celebrate:quirky
    Well we agree on something, now that you admit to being a troll.

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    cato wrote:
    N6ATF wrote:
    God forbid LUCC be recognized as a stopgap measure on the same page as the UOC warnings... in case we'd be forced to use our LUCC guns and get persecuted far above and beyond the letter and intent of the law, for being good Samaritans.
    I do share your natural dislike of LUCC but absent choices of no hassle UOC/LOC/CCW, it's better then having it in the safe (bitting mycheek while pushingthat option). Legally it's pretty safe mostly because of the attention you don't get. Stick to justifyed uses only of course.

    And if one has never read "how to own a gun and stay out of jail" it is a must read on self defense and possession case law in CA.
    I dislike LUCC no more or less than UOC. No matter how you keep or bear a gun legally, you can be persecuted by these traitors. I would not be surprised if one of us is charged with 1st degree murder and unlawful loaded concealed or loaded exposed if we save lives by ending a criminal's while carrying in either unloaded mode.

    Interestingly, Amazon doesn't have CA 2009 even on pre-order, just:

    Amazon wrote:
    How to Own a Gun & Stay Out of Jail: What You Need to Know About the Law If You Own a Gun or Are Thinking of Buying One : California Edition 2008 by John F. Machtinger and Amy Wetherbe (Paperback - Jan 2008)
    2 new from $140.65 5 used from $140.65
    (5)

    Books: See all 10 items

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    N6ATF wrote:
    read "how to own a gun and stay out of jail" it is a must read on self defense and possession case law in CA.
    You clicked on my link? Only 14 dollars there.

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    cato wrote:
    N6ATF wrote:
    read "how to own a gun and stay out of jail" it is a must read on self defense and possession case law in CA.
    You clicked on my link? Only 14 dollars there.
    Yeah, just funny to see last year's edition at 10x the price.

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    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    I strongly encourage any new member to heed cato's warnings. For those not in the know he is a very seasoned veteran and irrefutably one of the most experienced uoc advocates in this forum.

    CA's legislators are in drunk driving behind the wheel of a Lincoln Aggrevator. Most of them are in allegiance with the Sheeples' Demokracie of Feinstein an#d actively work on a full-time schedule to limit our rights. Without 2A incorporation if enough hoplophobes start complaining, legislation may come forth backed by anti-rights LEAs here.

    I do not reccommend solo OC at this time. A single person carrying (for the time being) may appear as an irregularity and the risk of rights-violations is very high. A group however gathers some positive response and usually is just (e) checked and left alone. I suppose thats where cato and i disagree.

    Every person must understand the amount of risk involved, in all respects. The risk to our absent right (skip 2 when counting to 10 in CA), the personal risk of rights violations, the risks of being wrongfully charged (and possibly convicted) and the risks associated with a possible life-ending tool.

    Before ANYONE starts to carry, they should think long and hard about every aspect. I may not solo OC, but when I group OC i put on my PR hat and try my best to leave a good impression.

    Long post short... Listen to cato, even though in the end, its your own personal decision.
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    N6ATF wrote:
    Yeah, just funny to see last year's edition at 10x the price.

    It's a collectors item, but I'll let my '08 go for only half that! Going once, going twice, ...


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    demnogis wrote:
    Every person must understand the amount of risk involved, in all respects. The risk to our absent right (skip 2 when counting to 10 in CA), the personal risk of rights violations, the risks of being wrongfully charged (and possibly convicted) and the risks associated with a possible life-ending tool.
    Just 2? I thought 1 (assembly), 4 (searches and seizures), 5 (due process), and 6 (impartial jury) are also skipped as long as you own a gun here.

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    N6ATF wrote:
    demnogis wrote:
    Every person must understand the amount of risk involved, in all respects. The risk to our absent right (skip 2 when counting to 10 in CA), the personal risk of rights violations, the risks of being wrongfully charged (and possibly convicted) and the risks associated with a possible life-ending tool.
    Just 2? I thought 1 (assembly), 4 (searches and seizures), 5 (due process), and 6 (impartial jury) are also skipped as long as you own a gun here.
    We can own slaves too?
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Gundude wrote:
    N6ATF wrote:
    demnogis wrote:
    Every person must understand the amount of risk involved, in all respects. The risk to our absent right (skip 2 when counting to 10 in CA), the personal risk of rights violations, the risks of being wrongfully charged (and possibly convicted) and the risks associated with a possible life-ending tool.
    Just 2? I thought 1 (assembly), 4 (searches and seizures), 5 (due process), and 6 (impartial jury) are also skipped as long as you own a gun here.
    We can own slaves too?
    We were only counting to 10, restrictions (honored or not) on government, not everyone.

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    Ham Radio "ditto's" my friend - 73's de K6EWN

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    I'm sorry I just do not agree with your or Gene's analysis. The UOC cat is out of the bag thanks to you and many others. If the jerkislators choose to create and pass more anti-gun laws it definitely will not be because we did not stop open carrying, which is to say that if we stop now somehow all will be forgotten and more bad legislation would be averted. That's just naive.

    The anti-gunners HATE us, nothing will change that. I will no longer remain silent. Plus I've heard the gay analogy one too many times now. It is a false argument. The two issues have absolutely nothing in common. There is a 200+ year history of positive gun culture in this country, not to mention a little paragraph titled Amendment II. The same cannot be said for the homosexual movement. I will not accept the false, fear mongering FUD about the lack of gun support in this state. There are more of us than them (speaking of pro vs anti gunners). What is especially frustrating is the fact that so many of us choose to remain silent and allow our rights to be ripped away all the while those in the know and on the front lines continue to preach silence and secrecy.

    Exercise all your rights and carry on!

    Further l must say all this stand down talk makes me very skeptical especially in light of the fact that after Nordyke incorporated the 2nd there was not a single announcement promoting, supporting, or encouraging open carry despite statements to that effect from the "right people".

    If you believe in open carry then do it because those who wish to control your behavior while perverting the Constitution will do so whether or not you carry any longer. They are sniveling, spineless, world view, world order, gun controlling, anti-American shrills who seek nothing less than your complete and total subservience to their beliefs and ideals.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    An email I sent earlier this evening:

    To:jpierce@speedscape.com


    Can anything be done about the trolls from Calguns that post in the Open Carry CA forum?
    If they want to whine and bitch about UOC, have them do it inthe Calguns forum.
    All they are doing is disrupting our usually friendly discussions and may be discouraging new members to join in the discussions.
    Any help would be appreciated.




    I'm realllly going to hold my breath until the troll problem is taken care of.

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