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Letter to Gallagher's Eatery in Kalamazoo

EM87

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Here's the draft of the letter I'm going to email them. It's not quite finished, but I thought I'd post it for suggestions. Where it says NAME, I'm waiting to find out the name of the manager who talked to me.

Things I still am going to add:

-I assumed that Gallagher's was a bar, but if it's not, people could already be concealing anyway

-I do not patronize restaurants that disallow me to exercise my right to self defense - many people feel the same as me in this matter

-I don't drink when I carry

For convenience, here are links to the original post:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/27552.html

and the other post I made about the issue:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/34429.html




LETTER EDITED OUT - SEE MOST RECENT POST FOR MOST RECENT LETTER
 

Venator

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Here is my edited version. You need to end with a call to action. What is the point of the letter? Do you want to meet with the owner to discuss this matter? Do you want to have them allow OC in their place???

On Monday, June 22, like every Monday, I visited Gallagher’s Eatery in Kalamazoo to meet with friends. We often stay late and spend thousands of dollars a year in your business. I alsoopen carry a firearm for all lawful purposes.

On this night, I was sitting outside at a table withfriends.I was approached by NAME, whoknows me as a regular customer. NAME told me that it was illegal to have a gun in a bar. I informed her that I was licensed, and while I cannot legally conceal a firearmin a bar, I can lawfully opencarry a firearmin any of Michigan’s Pistol Free Zones, including a bar (MCL 750.234d and Attorney General Opinion No. 7097 [/b]January 11, 2002).

She insisted that she was correct. I informed her once again that that was incorrect. She then said something to the effect of, "Well I just want you to let you know that we know you have it. Is that fair?" I told her, “Yes, that’s very fair.” She then went back inside.

About 10 minutes later she came out again and informed me that she had talked with the Kalamazoo Department of Public Safety, who had (wrongfully) informed her that in fact she was right - that guns weren't allowed in bars. I told her that I had the book of Michigan firearms laws in my car outside and that I would be happy to show her that what I'm doing is legal. I also informed her that many people in law enforcement aren't aware of the laws regarding open carry and that I was positive that I was correct.


She said that's not what the lieutenant on the phone had told her. I said once again that I'd show her the law but she wasn't interested. She told me that I was making some of her employees nervous and I was making her nervous as well, that she didn't want to argue, and that my choices were to put it in my car orleave.

I acknowledged that because it was private propertyshe had the authority to ask me to leave, so I left and have not returned, preferring to spend my money at a competitor that doesn't have a problem understanding the law.

What confused me about this encounter is that I had openly carried my firearminto Gallagher’s numerous times, without issue. I know people whoopenly carry in the Gallagher’s in Paw Paw, all without issue. I was not causingtrouble, and until I was approached by NAME with her misinformation about firearm laws there had been no issues whatsoever.


POINT AND CALL FOR ACTION????
 

EM87

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Thanks, Venator. It's not quite done yet, as I stated above, and I will be adding the "point and call for action" shortly.

Thanks for your input so far.
 

EM87

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Here's the new version. Suggestions welcome! Please make sure they're easy to find (in red). I think my call for action (last paragraph) could be worded better - any suggestions there? I will be sending this as soon as I get the name of the manager, and have written a suitable call for action.



November 28, 2009

Paul Jr. and Gallagher’s Eatery,

On Monday, June 22, like every Monday, I visited Gallagher’s Eatery in Kalamazoo to meet with friends. We often stay late and spend thousands of dollars a year at your business. I open carry a firearm for all lawful purposes, and had done so before in your establishment with no issues.

On this night, I was sitting outside at a table with friends when I was approached by Angie, one of your managers, who knew me as a regular customer. Angie told me that it was illegal to have a gun in a bar. I informed her that I was licensed, and while I could not legally conceal a firearm in a bar, I could lawfully open carry a firearm in any of Michigan’s Pistol Free Zones, including a bar (MCL 750.234d and Attorney General Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002).

She insisted that she was correct. I informed her once again that that was incorrect. She then said something to the effect of, "Well I just want you to let you know that we know you have it. Is that fair?" I told her, “Yes, that’s very fair.” She then went back inside.

About 10 minutes later she came out again and informed me that she had talked with the Kalamazoo Department of Public Safety, who had (wrongfully) informed her that in fact she was right - that guns weren't allowed in bars. I told her that I had the book of Michigan firearms laws in my car outside and that I would be happy to show her that what I'm doing is legal. I also informed her that many people in law enforcement aren't aware of the laws regarding open carry and that I was positive that I was correct.

She said that that's not what the lieutenant on the phone had told her. I said once again that I'd show her the law but she wasn’t interested. She told me that I was making some of her employees nervous and that I was making her nervous as well, that she didn’t want to argue, and that my choices were to put it in my car or to leave.

I acknowledged that because it was private property she had the authority to ask me to leave, so I paid my bill and left. I have not returned to spend money in your establishment, with few exceptions, as I prefer to spend my money at establishments that do not disallow my right to self-defense.

What confused me about this encounter is that I had openly carried into Gallagher’s numerous times before without issue. I know people who openly carry at the Gallagher’s in Paw Paw, also without issue. I was not causing any trouble and, until I was approached by Angie with her misinformation about firearms laws, there had been no issues whatsoever.

I would like to return to Gallagher’s to spend money there, as I enjoy the food and the time spent there with friends. However, I do not patronize establishments that disallow my right to self-defense.

I would like to know whether Gallagher’s prohibits the lawful carry of a firearm or if Angie was acting of her own accord. This will determine whether or not I will return to spend my money at Gallagher’s.

Respectfully,
[EM87]
 

EM87

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Received a reply. Short answer: no OC in Gallagher's.



Hello [EM87], and thank you for your email. Yes, I did receive your email and I apologize for the delay in getting back to you.

Your incident is rather unique to me as I have never personally had to deal with somene wanting to bring a firearm into my establishment.

I remember the night you dealt with Angie regarding the matter because she was on the phone with me speaking about it.

The question here is not one of legality. I certainly recogonize your right to own and carry a side arm. I say legality isn't a factor because this particular issue is one of personal comfort level. It simply comes down to me not being comfortable allowing a patron in my restaurant that feels the need to openly carry a side arm. It alarms me and others that see someone openly carrying their sidearm because it's not a sight people are accustomed to seeing at Gallaghers.

If you were a law enforcement agent and had to carry a pistol for your job, I suppose that would be a different story. My understanding though is that you want to carry your pistol for the purpose of personal protection and because you are licensed to carry.

I'm sorry to hear that we will lose you as a patron over this matter. I do hope that you'll reconsider your decision. You are always welcome at Gallaghers, but you will need to leave the gun in the car.

Thank you for your understanding,

Paul
 

Venator

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EM87 wrote:
I'm drafting a letter back to them and I'll post it here for suggestions.

If your further attempts to resolve or convince then to change their policy fails we could email themand express our disappointment and that we will respect their wishes by notgoing to their Establishment.
 

EM87

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Here's my tentative response. I don't know what question to ask at the end to ensure another response from him though. If he denies OC a second time, I just want one more follow-up email, but I need him to write back in order for that to happen.

Suggestions? The third paragraph needs work.




Paul,

Thank you for your response. I understand that some people are not comfortable with open carry since it is not something one sees every day.

Regarding your decision to disallow open carry at Gallagher’s, it wouldn’t be fair of me to not inform you that any establishment known to have a “No Open Carry” rule is put on a “Do Not Patronize” list, which is viewed by a high volume of pro-gun citizens in Michigan. I understand that Gallagher’s is your establishment and that you make the rules as you see fit, but that is something to consider.

Part of the reason I choose to open carry is to desensitize the public to seeing a firearm on a law-abiding citizen. As you may know, it is the armed, law-abiding citizen who saves lives. As the saying goes, “When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.” If anything were to ever happen at Gallagher’s, I hope that … [trying to articulate a situation in which he would be glad he let people OC]

I sincerely hope that you will reconsider your decision.

Regards,
[EM87]
 

DKSuddeth

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EM87 wrote:
I'm drafting a letter back to them and I'll post it here for suggestions.
you should include the question of whether he is going to assume financial liability and responsibility should anything happen in his establishment that injures you because you were unable to defend yourself.
 

EM87

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Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA
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DKSuddeth wrote:
EM87 wrote:
I'm drafting a letter back to them and I'll post it here for suggestions.
you should include the question of whether he is going to assume financial liability and responsibility should anything happen in his establishment that injures you because you were unable to defend yourself.

Hmm, I like that. Would that be plausible though? "Establishment denies gun rights, patron sues when he was unable to defend himself." It seems like a bit of a stretch to me.
 

manicdevery

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Clio, Michigan, USA
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EM87 wrote:
If anything were to ever happen at Gallagher’s, I hope that … [trying to articulate a situation in which he would be glad he let people OC]

Ithink you are on the right track of pursuing this in a very professional matter, i just hope the above statement of "if anything were to happen..." does notput blame on lawful OCers if anything were to happen, as looking at your previous letter i am not concerned you will word it correctlyto getthe message acrossi just find thatdesensitizing the public is harder than i ever thought, i have shown people the law and they still disagree with me. good luck with the pursuit of Gallagher's

Devery
 

Venator

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Lansing area, Michigan, USA
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Paul,

Thank you for your response. I understand that some people are not comfortable with open carry since it is not something one sees every day. That is part of the reason I OC, to educate and desensitize the public.

As for your reasoning for banning firearms let me say that as an owner you have the ability to ban anyone not protected by law and you would not lose this right by allowing your customers to carry handguns. If you felt uncomfortable with a particular person you can deal with it on a case by case manner. But banning all law abiding individuals is just plain bad for business.

Please consider the attached information on businesses that allow all legal forms of firearm carry. These businesses big and small recognize that a significant percentage of their customer base is pro-gun and do not want to lose them. They have not experienced any negative impact due to allowing firearms in their businesses, in fact the upside is increased sales.

Regarding your decision to disallow lawful firearm carry in Gallagher’s, I will state that any establishment known to have a “No firearm” rule is put on several webites “Do Not Patronize” list, which is viewed by thousandsof pro-gun citizens in Michigan.

I would be happy to meet with you in person and discuss this issue further, you have much to gain with little to lose by allowing the lawful carry of firearms in your restaurant.

I sincerely hope that you will reconsider your decision.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerely,

Michigan OC Friendly PlacesBy County.

Berrien County:


The Fire Place Shoppe: 5360 Red Arrow Highway Stevensville, Michigan 49127
Burkett HVAC R-Service LLC: 5360 Red Arrow Highway Stevensville, Michigan 49127

Calhoun County:

South Side Sportsman Club: 539 Capital Avenue SW Battle Creek, Michigan49015
Phone: 269-968-4229
Website:
http://www.southsidesportsmanclub.com

Clare County:

Jay's Sporting Goods: 8800 South Clare Avenue Clare, Michigan

Clinton County:

KC's Cuts- Barber Main Street downtown Bath, Michigan
Mid-Michigan Guns and Gear: 3630 Main Street Suite D Bath, Michigan 48808
Website:http://www.mmgunsandgear.com

Eaton County:

Eaton Rapids Conservation Club: 4100 Freeman Road Eaton Rapids, Michigan
Phone: 616-663-1255


Genesee County:

Tom's Coney Cafe 512 S Dort HwyFlint, MI 48503 (810) 767-3540
Tom’s Coney Café 6339 S Saginaw Rd Grand Blanc, MI 48439 (810) 695-2233
Capital Coney Island: 4021 Van Slyke Road, Flint, Michigan
Valley Coney Island: 5009 Miller Rd, Flint, Michigan
Williams Gun and Sight Co: 7389 Lapeer Road Davison, Michigan
Website:
http://www.williamsgunsight.com/

Grand Traverse County:

Professional Tool Services: 1220 Woodmere Ave Traverse City, Michigan
The Discerning Shootist: 721 Woodmere Ave Traverse City, Michigan
wsracer@hotmail.com
Jere's Barber Shop: 110 South Oak Street Traverse City, Michigan 49684-2450
Phone: 231-946-8233‎
Hampel's, Inc. Gun & Lock Store, since 1919: 710 Randolph Street Traverse City, Michigan 49684.
Phone: 231-946-5485

Houghton County:

DeMar's Food Market: 901 Calumet Street Lake Linden, Michigan 49945
Phone:906-296-7101

Quality Hardware (Ammo and hunting supplies): 200 Calumet Street Lake Linden, Michigan Phone:906-296-9122
Pizza Hut: 1001 Memorial Road Houghton, Michigan
Phone:906-482-0978

Joey's Only Seafood and Grill: 304 Shelden Avenue Houghton, Michigan
Phone:906-483-0500


Jackson County:

Starlite Cab Company: 1703 E. Michigan Avenue Jackson, Michigan
Owners: Gordon& Jennifer Cannon
Website:
http://www.starlitecab.com
Foote's One StopShop:326 W. Michigan Avenue Jackson Michigan 49203
Schupbach's Sporting Goods:141 West Pearl Street Jackson, Michigan
Phone: 517-782-8418 Website:
http://www.schupbachs.com
Corona Smoke Shop: 305 North West Avenue Jackson, Michigan 49201
Cloverland Tattoo Company: 2108 WildwoodAvenue Jackson, Michigan
Phone: 517-
962-2364

Star Transmission & Auto Repair: 2401 Page Avenue Jackson, Michigan
Owner: Bob Phone: 517-783-1190

K-Jake Gasoline: 3465 Page Avenue Jackson, Michigan 49203
Manager: Ron Allen Phone: 517-748-9500

U-HAUL JACKSON: 1809 East Michigan Avenue Jackson, Michigan 49202
Manager: Larry Bennett Phone: 517-787-6571

Knibloe Hardware: 1612 East Michigan Avenue Jackson, Michigan 49202
Phone: 517-782-6823


Kalamazoo County:

Fourth Coast Cafe: 816 South Westnedge Ave #1 Kalamazoo, Michigan
Harding's MarketPlace: 412 Howard Street Kalamazoo, Michigan
Theo & Stacy's Restaurant: 234 W Michigan Avenue Kalamazoo, Michigan
Phone: 269-388-5025 Website: http://www.theoandstacys.com/

Kent County:

Silver Bullet Firearms: 5121 Division Avenue S, Grand Rapids, Michigan 49548
Phone: 616-249-1911
Website:
http://www.silverbulletfirearms.com/

Livingston County:

Don Pablo's Flint,

Tyrone Party Store: 9485 Center Rd, Fenton, Michigan


Macomb County:

National Coney Island: 27027 Gratiot Ave, Roseville, Michigan
Hunts With Double Indoor:51334 Danview Technology Ct
Shelby Twp, Michigan 48315
Website: http://www.huntswithdouble.com/
Andary's Grill: 20658 Hall Road Clinton Twp, Michigan
Phone: 586-954-9380

Monroe County:

Café Classics Coffee House: 29 S. Monroe Street Monroe, Michigan
Phone: 734-242-8286
Website:
http://www.cafe-classics.com/

Oakland County:

Ogemaw County:



J.P. Sporting Goods:3275 West M-55 West Branch, Michigan 48661
Phone: 989-345-3744 Map:
JPSportingGoods

Otsego County:

Jay's Sporting Goods: 150 Dale Drive Gaylord, Michigan

Roscommon County:

Brownies Bait And Tackle:1347 North. St. Helen St. Helen, Michigan 48656
Phone: 989-389-7155

St. Helen Hardware: 2171 N. St Helen Road St Helen Michigan 48656-9454
Whites Metal Detectors Authorized Dealer
Phone: 989-389-7288

Village Hardware: 808 Lake Street Roscommon, Michigan 48653
Phone: 989-275-5554

Lake Transmissions Complete Auto Service: 3232 West Houghton Lake Drive
Houghton Lake, Michigan 48629 24Hr. AAA
Phone: 989-366-9900 Fax: 989-366-6612

LURE'S Family Restaurant: 2570 N. St. Helen Road Saint Helen, Michigan 48656
Phone: 989-389-7558


Van Buren County:

Mr. C's Barber Shop: 115 First Street Lawrence, Michigan
Phone: 269-674-3878
K & D Arms:106 North Paw Paw Street Lawrence, Michigan
Phone: 269-674-4071 Website:
http://www.kdarms.com/index.html

Wayne County:

Flanarys Guns Inc: 153 Merriman Road Garden City, Michigan 48135
Phone: 734-286-4867 0r 734-402-7500
http://www.flanarysguns.webs.com/
Auto Zone: 1636 North Wayne Road Westland, Michigan
SP Guns N Ammo: 16070 Eureka Road Southgate, Michigan
Phone: 734-225-7426


Corporate Policies

Boston Market
McDonalds
BOB EVANS
Barnes & Noble

Walmart
Cabelas
Toys-R-US
LOWE'S
Home Depot.
BEST BUY's POLICY
Bass Pro. Inc
 

EM87

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Messages
986
Location
Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA
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Thanks, Venator! That helps a lot.

manicdevery wrote:
EM87 wrote:
If anything were to ever happen at Gallagher’s, I hope that … [trying to articulate a situation in which he would be glad he let people OC]

...i just hope the above statement of "if anything were to happen..." does not put blame on lawful OCers if anything were to happen...

That's the part I don't like the sound of, and it will change. Thanks for your input! I always appreciate feedback.
 

EM87

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Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
986
Location
Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA
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Here's the revised version. I still feel like I'm missing something. Perhaps the merits of having lawfully carried firearms in the establishment? Or is that not necessary?

Suggestions?




Paul,

Thank you for your response. I understand that some people are not comfortable with open carry since it is not something one sees every day. That is part of the reason I open carry – to educate and desensitize the public to seeing a lawfully carried firearm.

As for your reasoning for banning firearms, please consider the attached information on businesses that allow all legal forms of firearm carry. These businesses, both big and small, recognize that a significant percentage of their customer base is pro-gun and do not want to lose them. They have not experienced any negative impact due to allowing firearms in their businesses. In fact, the upside is increased sales.

If you feel uncomfortable with a certain person you could deal with it on a case-by-case basis. Banning all law-abiding individuals is just plain bad for business.

Regarding your decision to ban firearms at Gallagher’s, it is only fair of me to inform you that any establishment known to have a “No Firearms” rule is put on a “Do Not Patronize” list on multiple websites and is viewed by thousands of pro-gun citizens in Michigan.

I would be happy to meet with you in person to discuss this issue further. You have much to gain but little to lose by allowing the lawful carry of firearms in your restaurant.

I sincerely hope that you will reconsider your decision.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerely,
[EM87]
 

mikestilly

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Joined
Jul 6, 2009
Messages
1,869
Location
Macomb County, Michigan, USA
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I've been discussing OC with people in a way which I feel deflects the focus on open carrying. Something to the affect of:

The reason you've most likely never had to deal with issues about people carrying is because the average customer who carry would conceal it and most likely you've had hundreds of customers carrying without you even knowing about it. Open carry is just another choice in the method of carrying an item for self protection. The average person doesn't even notice people carrying and if they do as long as that person is acting responsible just like anything they go on with what they are doing. If by chance someone were to have a problem with it's best to handle it on a case by case basis rather then all out ban a whole segment of customers from your store because of a small few customers who may complain. What do you guys think?
 
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