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Thread: The cost of further reducing a small probability.

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    My realization of my daughter's intellectual maturity may have come when we had a wonderful conversation about the cost of some protocol intended to reduce the incidence of breast cancer. In 2004, breast cancer caused 519,000 deaths worldwide (7% of cancer deaths; almost 1% of all deaths).

    I spend a good bit of time watching my woods through nice glasses, currently 7 x 50 binoculars. Today I watched a couple of orange clad city-gillies sneaking (hah!) through my across the street neighbor's woods.

    I realized the likely true purpose of blaze orange in addition to state mandated hunter training (that includes 'know your target and what is beyond'). It is so that the 'conservation warden' can more easily detect suspects; kind'a like striped convict's breeches.

    Contrast that with a good ghillie-suit and the four precepts of gun safety.

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    Regular Member ROOK_WI's Avatar
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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    I realized the likely true purpose of blaze orange in addition to state mandated hunter training (that includes 'know your target and what is beyond'). It is so that the 'conservation warden' can more easily detect suspects; kind'a like striped convict's breeches.
    That may very well be correct, butI feel just a wee bit safer out in my Orange instead of some beautiful Carhartt brown."Buck Fever"doesthings to the mind.

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    Yes, and training doesn't.

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    ROOK_WI wrote:
    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    I realized the likely true purpose of blaze orange in addition to state mandated hunter training (that includes 'know your target and what is beyond'). It is so that the 'conservation warden' can more easily detect suspects; kind'a like striped convict's breeches.
    That may very well be correct, butI feel just a wee bit safer out in my Orange instead of some beautiful Carhartt brown."Buck Fever"doesthings to the mind.
    This, Was out at the farm not hunting last week .... Covered in Orange.

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    I believeblaze orangehas just as much to do with safety, Especially with "Knowing your target and beyond"

    I have let deer pass due to a blob of blaze orange a few hundred yards behind the deer I intended to shoot. The deer later appeared in an opening without blaze orange in the background and quickly met it's demise

    Back when i started deer hunting, Red, & Red Plaid was still legal attire, My father and I changed to blaze orange shotly after watching a few in our hunting group walking towards us in twilight conditions, we could see a lone blaze orange silhouette in the group of 5 guys wearing the red jackets of the past, at that point we realized how good the color worked for being seen and increasing the chance of not being shot by accident.

    A few years back, I was hunting a local public area known for its hiking/skiing trails, and I was watching something tan & white colored make its way down a trail. I raised my rifle and anticipatedwhat I expected to be a deercoming into an opening in the brush only too see a family walking their dog! the wife was wearing a tan suede coat, a white hat, and a white scarf dangling off her neck. Nobody in the group had any clue it was deer season! I do not see orange as a way to discern between a human and a deer, but more to be sure your background is clear.

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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    I realized the likely true purpose of blaze orange in addition to state mandated hunter training (that includes 'know your target and what is beyond'). It is so that the 'conservation warden' can more easily detect suspects; kind'a like striped convict's breeches.
    Do you honestly believe that someone who is going to take deer illegally is going to wear blaze orange because the law requires it? I can (and have been) be in the thickest of woods and see a glimpse of orange thru the trees and am grateful that I can be viewed the same!

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    So why, then, teach 'know your target and what's beyond'? Which mandate is effective, the one that costs nothing or the one that inspired an industry?

    If the orange-industry further reduced an already small ("Aim small, miss small!") rate of hunting accidents, then what was the cost per avoided incident?

    Or, if the stranger-hunter is so mistrusted, then don't 'teach' at all and criminalize shooting at blaze-orange.

    Does the metaphoric analogy of "belts and braces" work? What is the cost of the added benefit of wearing braces in addition to a belt?

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    Regular Member ROOK_WI's Avatar
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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    So why, then, teach 'know your target and what's beyond'?
    Liability reasons on behalf of the instructor...There is quite the difference in what is taught versus what is understood by the student, this applies to any kind of instruction.

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    I appreciate the insightful response. Thanks.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    In addition to the documented hunting related shootings where the shooter believed their human target to be the intended game animal,there are sufficient1st hand anecdotal stories of close calls, near misses and lives being sparedonly by the Grace of God and good fortuneto justify the mandate of wearing blaze orange for hunting of deer.

    Wisconsin Whitetail Deer hunting is the amateur hour of the hunting sports. The actual incident rate would be much higher if it were not for the blaze orange clothing mandate.

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    Campaign Veteran GlockMeisterG21's Avatar
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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    Wisconsin Whitetail Deer hunting is the amateur hour of the hunting sports. The actual incident rate would be much higher if it were not for the blaze orange clothing mandate.
    +1

    I am not a hunter but I wouldn't be caught out in the field during hunting season without blaze orange on.
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    GlockMeisterG21 wrote:
    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    Wisconsin Whitetail Deer hunting is the amateur hour of the hunting sports. The actual incident rate would be much higher if it were not for the blaze orange clothing mandate.
    +1

    I am not a hunter but I wouldn't be caught out in the field during hunting season without blaze orange on.
    I am a hunter and I will defend deer hunting as a relatively safe sport. I stand behind blaze orange as a minor inconvenience for the hunter which effectively saves lives each year.

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    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    anyone that don't wear orange during hunting season is asking to get shot.
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    Heh heh, like when our subsidized senior living center steps out to lunch at the community center, blue-hair and blaze-orange are de rigueur lest their grandsons lay waste in arrant error.

    I must stop this word-play banter because it is too much fun.

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    Master Doug Huffman wrote:
    Heh heh, like when our subsidized senior living center steps out to lunch at the community center, blue-hair and blaze-orange are de rigueur lest their grandsons lay waste in arrant error.

    I must stop this word-play banter because it is too much fun.



    What is the cost for your personal safety? You are on this form because you carry for personal safety right? I grew up hunting in Wisconsin and have hunted all over the Badger Sate from Bruce to Shullsburg and many points in between. I have hunted both privet and public lands. I have been hunting now for 25+ years and in several states and can say some of the best hunting is found in Wisconsin. As a boy I would enjoy hearing the cracking of guns going off in the distance and try to guess the calibre, distance, and direction the shot was. You could also hear if the bullet hit on object or deer too at times. I like the blaze orange law that Wisconsin has not just for my safety but for others too.

    I have not found a place that has more hunters on opening day of gun dear than Wisconsin. I have seen many yahoo's out in the bush (woods) that the only time they ever or will ever handle a firearm is in Nov. I have seen people shoot first and look later (I never hunted with them again).

    I like the blaze orange law that Wisconsin has not just for my safety but for others too. I have hunted in Michigan and all you need there is an orange hat that can be seen 360 degrees. I did not feel safe and choose to dun 50% of my body blaze orange.

    I have not found a place that has more hunters per ca-pita on opening day of gun dear than Wisconsin. I have seen many yahoo's out in the bush (woods) that the only time they ever or will ever handle a firearm is in Nov. I have seen people shoot first and look later (I never hunted with them again).

    I was in a thicket pushing deer and heard a shot ring out the working of the actionand another shot then the crashing of the deer. I never saw nor heard the dear until I walked up on the carcass still kicking not 10 yards from where I was. My hunting partner never saw me and never new I was there untilI yelled andweboth walked up on the deer. I hadkicked itout to him and he shot it. He heard the dear jump up and begincrashing through the trees; the deer masked my crashing.

    I don't care who sees me out in the bush as long as they can see me. There are to many stupid people with guns calling themselves hunters on the opening day of the gun deer season.

    During the gun deer season many people do not respect property lines.

    Don't confuse me with the facts, I have my emotions!

    I guess that's the difference between no crime and "stopping" a crime in progress. I prefer no crime.

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    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    +1 on the side of blaze orange and yes there are loonies who should not have the right to be in the field at all.

    Some years ago, I went with a fellow I considered a friend and had some respect for his hunting prowess as evidenced by the mounts throughout his home.

    He invited me to go squirrel hunting. I was in my mid twenties at the time. We got to the spot and set a spell. The squirrels apparently had heard we were coming and were not in attendance.

    Finally one showed up and my friend raised his 410, took a bead on dinner, more of a snack, truth be told. He fired. Missed and the frightened target took off as if on fire. My hunting partner jumped up and gave chase. He ran full out with a loaded 410, safety off, for several yards, leaped over a barbed wire fence, down bank, over a stream filled with rocks, up the opposing bank bounding over several fallen trees, stood and fired again and ultimately, the speedy rodent ran into a small clearing where this mighty hunter finally cornered the escaping rodent in the crook of the lone tree about 12' up.

    At this point, he fired again and winged the little fella who dropped 6 inches and then scrambled to the opposite side of the tree where he was hit again but to no avail. The wounded creature; now noticeably slowed down, scurried into a hole in the tree. My friend now unreasonably angry, shot at the hole. No luck.

    We waited, the air turned blue for a bit, the squirrel finally showed it's head and then crawled out a bit more, my now somewhat less respected hunting buddy fired one last time and felled the squirrel. It dropped to the ground, however it still clung to life. The fellow now took the butt of his 410 and smashed it down on the poor squirrel's head, ending what can only be described as a courageous struggle for survival by the squirrel.

    To have this creatures life end so ignobly was truly an eye opener. Tragic and sad. At that point I vowed that it would be one shot, one kill. If I could not or should not make the attempt, there would be no Hail Mary shots attempted.

    Needless to say, I never went into the field with this moron again and our friendship trailed off to nil eventually. This was way beyond stupid.

    The icing on that cake is that on the way home, I hit an unfortunate squirrel with the car. It was bigger than the one my ex-hunting partner shot.

    The next time I went into the woods was fall the next year and I carried a bow for the first time. I was again with a "friend" who "knew the woods" and was a "big hunter" (his own words). We were camo'd out and in deep woods. He set me up near a deer trail and I sat by a tree and waited bow in hand, arrow nockt, while he went to 'drive the deer'.

    About 15 minutes later, I saw the brush moving and heard rustling at about 2 O'clock, some 15 yards away. I drew back my bow, turned and raised it in that direction, waited, waited, finally the brush parted to reveal the complete idiot I had gone bow hunting with. He stuck his head out with a big grin on his face and laughed like he had really pulled one over on me.

    OMG. Again an oxygen waster that I departed from as fast as my feet could carry me.

    The only luck that day is that I knew to never shoot at what I could not see.

    OMG.

    I know that in both of those cases, Blaze orange is not required but the tales were told to illustrate dumb and dumber. Those same people are out there during deer season.

    So, Blaze orange is good. Still have had a slug or two wiz by even with blaze orange on but better safe than sorry.



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    Well, let me put it this way: In the 1914 deer hunting season there were twenty-four hunters killed and another twenty-six injured and 155,000 hunting licenses were sold.

    In 2008, a total of nine people were shot, one fatality. Of the 9 shooting incidents, 4 were self-inflicted. 648,000 licenses sold.

    So why has deer hunting become a safer activity over the course of the past century?

    Check out this report, particularly pages 4 & 5:

    http://dnr.wi.gov/org/es/enforcement...ent_Report.pdf
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