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Thread: Open Carrying in the Bay Area

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    Since joining this forum and becoming a little more educated on the subject of open carrying in CA. I feel a little more comfortable open carrying while driving but not out in public. I haven't done that yet. It's going to be a while. I still don't trust the police in the city I live in.

    I've had many run ins with them over the last 7 years. I've worked nights for the last 14 years and always bike ride late at night after midnight to get some exercise. I ride about 10 miles a night. I can't tell you how many times I've been stopped and had my I.D. checked and told to sit on the ground ect. I've made many complaints with their Capt. & Lt. who I now have good relations with. It's always the youngers cops giving me a hard time. I've never been in trouble with the law before either. In fact almost became a sheriff about 5 years ago.

    So with that being said and knowing the attiudes of the police here where I live, I have no plans of open carrying here anytime soon. Only while I'm driving.

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    Welcome.

    Glad you found us. Its awarm and educated forum we have here. S.F. has a hard on for people who open carry. I rather OC in public then while driving if you ask me, but I dont live in s.f. so......

    You should exercise your right against that ****. Tell them I got my I.D right here mother ******.



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    After several times getting stopped by the police, I got really pissed off one time and was talking back to them. Not cussing them out or anything like that. Didn't really do any good I can tell you that. It's best to remain calm even though I wanted to knock them out.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Poblacht32 wrote:
    Since joining this forum and becoming a little more educated on the subject of open carrying in CA. I feel a little more comfortable open carrying while driving but not out in public. I haven't done that yet. It's going to be a while. I still don't trust the police in the city I live in.

    I've had many run ins with them over the last 7 years. I've worked nights for the last 14 years and always bike ride late at night after midnight to get some exercise. I ride about 10 miles a night. I can't tell you how many times I've been stopped and had my I.D. checked and told to sit on the ground ect. I've made many complaints with their Capt. & Lt. who I now have good relations with. It's always the youngers cops giving me a hard time. I've never been in trouble with the law before either. In fact almost became a sheriff about 5 years ago.

    So with that being said and knowing the attiudes of the police here where I live, I have no plans of open carrying here anytime soon. Only while I'm driving.
    A few things. If you live in SF, you can't travel very far before you are in a school zone and violating 626.9. Make sure you won't be getting within 1000' of school property while driving.

    If you're riding your bike and you have a rear and forward light on your bike and you aren't violating any laws, you can't get stopped. If you do get stopped, ask why you are being stopped. If they say you violated some law that you actually violated, then fine. If they don't give you a reason or give you some nonsense reason, then ask if you are being detained. If yes, ask for what crime and what their reasonable and articulable suspicion is. If no, ask if you are free to leave. Don't give them your ID if you haven't done anything wrong. Just keep asking if you're free to leave.

    You aren't required to have ID to ride a bike, so you may not even be required to show ID if you did violate some law. I've been riding my bike in the bay area for the past 4.5 years (in the south bay and SF) and I've never been stopped by a police officer. Something must be different about our experiences.

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    Thanks for the info! I've always been too quick to openupmy mouth and explain what I'm doing and hand my I.D. over to them. I live in Concord. I've learned a lot this week from many of you on this forum.

    My next stop by the police while bike riding is going to be very different. I do have lights on the front & back of my bike also. I think these officers are just bored sometimes late at night and just like to stir things up. Thanks again for the great advice!

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    Put your ID somewhere they won't find it (in your shoe or something).... or just leave it at home if you don't need it on you.

    Thesues' case has shown that there is potential harm in being ID'd, even if you've done nothing wrong.
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    Well I went on a 10 mile bike ride tonight and got stopped by the Concord Police. 1st time in a while. It happened2.5 miles into my bike ride. The officer drove towards me in the opposite lane and stopped right in front of me with his lights on.

    He stepped out andasked me right away "What are you doing out here?". I asked "Why?" He then got pissed off. You should have seen his face when I said that. He then asked me the same question again. I then said "Am I being detained?" He said yes you are! Then I asked if I was being charged with a crime and he said no but you could tell he was pissed at this point lol!

    He then said "Do you have any I.D. on you?" I did because I always carry it on me just in case of an emergency. I didn't think of carrying it in my shoes though like you were saying.

    When he asked me for my I.D. I then said "Am I legally required to show that to you even though I haven't committed any crime?". He didn't give me a Yes or No answer but was pissed off and wanted to see my I.D.. He then had me put my bike downand told me to sit on the curb.He then asked for my I.D. again and I showed it to him.

    He was pissed off at this point and saidthat I wasn't getting off to a good start with him. I felt like I HADto answer his questions because of his attitude at the time. He called for backup. I saw the other officer racing down the street at a high rate of speed.

    So he checked my I.D. and we were both on our way after I got a short lecture.He gave me a lot of excuses of why he stopped me. Burglaries in the area ect... I was a lot more firm this time than I usually am but it didn't work out so good in my favor this time around. I guess I need more practice LOL!

    Maybe next time I should just try keeping my mouth shut. I've been through this countless times though over the last 7 yrs. with different officers in the Concord Police. I totally respect LEO's but most of these guys get an attitude with you when you turn things around and start asking them questions.

    I could just imagine what would happen if they stopped me in my truck and I was "Unloaded Open Carrying" which I've done lately. He would have called every officer in this district for back up even though it's my legal right to do so by law. I'm far off from feeling comfortable in this town with Open Carrying in public. I don't trust the police one bit and tonight justexemplifies it.

    The Concord Police is well know for stopping people without probable causewhether it's a traffic stop or on foot/bike to just check someones I.D. to see if they have any warrants out for their arrest. I couldn't tell you how many times I've witnessed it over the years with other people. Sorry for the long post. The CPD has me all worked up right now LOL!



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    Poblacht32 wrote:
    Maybe next time I should just try keeping my mouth shut.
    QFT.

    This is something that really takes practice. We have been indoctrinated into the belief that police are our friends, that no harm can come to us if we talk to them. We have been conditioned from elementary school in this belief and it is reinforced with movies, and television.

    You do not have to show photoID. You do not have to answer their questions. Once you take this stand however, expect intimidation, coersion, and threats. One way to difuse this is to begin asking your own questions.

    Am I free to go? Why am I being detained? Can your articulate what crime you suspect is being commited?

    I urge anyone to develop a dialogue in anticipation of being stopped by police- and practice it. Because once you are stopped, your brain may be in neutral under the added stress of a police encounter.
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    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
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    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    And since it seems to be a regular thing... Keep a voice recorder on you. 4A violations of any flavor are still that. Stopped, demanding ID? On what Probable Cause? Did he pat you down "for officer safety"? Ask for his name and badge number, file a complaint at the local PD. One of the few ways that LEAs learn not to violate your rights and to change their policies is by complaint. If one officer from this LEA does it, it's a random occurrence, two do it it's a coincidence, three do it, it's bad policy... If you notice that there seems to be a trend in your harassment, possibly an internal affairs complaint is in order?

    Remember, in CA there is no Stop and Identify statute! Protect yourself, assert your rights. If you keep a recorder on you, ask the questions that ConditionThree has posted, your ass is covered and theirs is on the chopping block for violation of rights under color of authority.

    ConditionThree wrote:
    Poblacht32 wrote:
    Maybe next time I should just try keeping my mouth shut.
    QFT.

    This is something that really takes practice. We have been indoctrinated into the belief that police are our friends, that no harm can come to us if we talk to them. We have been conditioned from elementary school in this belief and it is reinforced with movies, and television.

    You do not have to show photoID. You do not have to answer their questions. Once you take this stand however, expect intimidation, coersion, and threats. One way to difuse this is to begin asking your own questions.

    Am I free to go? Why am I being detained? Can your articulate what crime you suspect is being commited?

    I urge anyone to develop a dialogue in anticipation of being stopped by police- and practice it. Because once you are stopped, your brain may be in neutral under the added stress of a police encounter.
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    I don't really have much respect for the media, but an ocassional "Letter to the Editor" of the local newspaper can get things into the public eye...if it is printed. If it's a liberal newspaper, they may get confused by the facts.



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    bigtoe416 wrote:
    If you're riding your bike and you have a rear and forward light on your bike and you aren't violating any laws, you can't get stopped.


    Need a few more things then that...

    http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...le=21200-21212
    21201. (d) A bicycle operated during darkness upon a highway, a sidewalk
    where bicycle operation is not prohibited by the local jurisdiction,
    or a bikeway, as defined in Section 890.4 of the Streets and Highways
    Code, shall be equipped with all of the following:
    (1) A lamp emitting a white light that, while the bicycle is in
    motion, illuminates the highway, sidewalk, or bikeway in front of the
    bicyclist and is visible from a distance of 300 feet in front and
    from the sides of the bicycle.
    (2) A red reflector on the rear that shall be visible from a
    distance of 500 feet to the rear when directly in front of lawful
    upper beams of headlamps on a motor vehicle.
    (3) A white or yellow reflector on each pedal, shoe, or ankle
    visible from the front and rear of the bicycle from a distance of 200
    feet.
    (4) A white or yellow reflector on each side forward of the center
    of the bicycle, and a white or red reflector on each side to the
    rear of the center of the bicycle, except that bicycles that are
    equipped with reflectorized tires on the front and the rear need not
    be equipped with these side reflectors.
    The reflectors and reflectorized tires shall be of a type meeting
    requirements established by the department.
    (e) A lamp or lamp combination, emitting a white light, attached
    to the operator and visible from a distance of 300 feet in front and
    from the sides of the bicycle, may be used in lieu of the lamp
    required by paragraph (1) of subdivision (d).

    If in a motor vehicle or bicycle (or planing to cross the street in violation of the VC) one might want to have ID availableIF the demand is made.

    http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...le=40300-40313



    40302. Whenever any person is arrested for any violation of this
    code, not declared to be a felony, the arrested person shall be taken
    without unnecessary delay before a magistrate within the county in
    which the offense charged is alleged to have been committed and who
    has jurisdiction of the offense and is nearest or most accessible
    with reference to the place where the arrest is made in any of the
    following cases:
    (a) When the person arrested fails to present his driver's license
    or other satisfactory evidence of his identity for examination.
    (b) When the person arrested refuses to give his written promise
    to appear in court.
    (c) When the person arrested demands an immediate appearance
    before a magistrate.
    (d) When the person arrested is charged with violating Section
    23152.


    40307. (a) When an arresting officer attempts to take a person
    arrested for a misdemeanor or infraction of this code before a
    magistrate and the magistrate or person authorized to act for him or
    her is not available, the arresting officer shall take the person
    arrested, without unnecessary delay, before one of the following:
    (1) The clerk of the magistrate, who shall admit the person to
    bail for the full amount set for the offense in a schedule fixed as
    provided in Section 1269b of the Penal Code.
    (2) The officer in charge of the most accessible county or city
    jail or other place of detention within the county, who shall admit
    the person to bail for the full amount set for the offense in a
    schedule fixed as provided in Section 1269b of the Penal Code or may,
    in lieu of bail, release the person on his or her written promise to
    appear as provided in subdivisions (a) to (f), inclusive, of Section
    853.6 of the Penal Code.

    (b) Whenever a person is taken into custody pursuant to
    subdivision (a) of Section 40302 and is arrested for a misdemeanor or
    infraction of this code pertaining to the operation of a motor
    vehicle, the officer in charge of the most accessible county or city
    jail or other place of detention within the county may detain the
    person arrested for a reasonable period of time, not to exceed two
    hours, in order to verify his or her identity.


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    Thanks for the info! I appreciate it. I might be filinga complaint with their Lt. here in my district. The Concord Police has gotten way too comfortable with stopping people when there's no probable cause. I don't see how they can get away with this if in fact it is illegal.

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    I live near concord also, in fact I use to work at one of the shopping centers. I am about 50/50 with the law enforcement in concord, due to the fact that I've worked with them in certain incidents from my last job. I do also have a trust issue with CPD.

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    I totally respect the CPD. There's just a handful of officers in that dept. that think they're above the law. I feel like I live in a socialist city sometimes. I know I ride at odd hours of the night but that's because I've worked nights for many years. They stop me and act like it's against the law to even be outside aftermidnight. They want to know where I live, where I work and so on....

    Last night was the 1st time I turned the cards and started asking them questions. I just can't believe how pissed off he got at the situation!



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    Poblacht32 wrote:
    I totally respect the CPD. There's just a handful of officers in that dept. that think they're above the law. I feel like I live in a socialist city sometimes. I know I ride at odd hours of the night but that's because I've worked nights for many years. They stop me and act like it's against the law to even be outside aftermidnight. They want to know where I live, where I work and so on....

    Last night was the 1st time I turned the cards and started asking them questions. I just can't believe how pissed off he got at the situation!

    Get a crap looking bike and start dressing like a homeless person (keep all your good clothes in your backpack). Homeless people have no "curfew".

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    Just been reading up on the laws and found this:

    "Consensual

    At any time, a police officer may approach a person and ask questions. The objective may simply be a friendly conversation; however, the officer also may suspect involvement in a crime, but lack “specific and articulable facts”that would justify a detention or arrest, and hope to obtain these facts from the questioning. The person approached is not required to identify himself or answer any other questions, and may leave at any time.[4][/suP] Police are not usually required to tell a person that she is free to decline to answer questions and go about her business;[5][/suP] however, a person can usually determine whether the interaction is consensual by asking, “Am I free to go?”[6][/suP][7][/suP]

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    States with “stop and identify” statutes
    There is no federal law requiring that an individual identify himself during a Terry stop. Hiibel merely established that states and localities have the power to require people to identify themselves under those conditions.

    As of 2009, the following 24 states have “stop and identify” laws:

    Alabama
    Ala. Code §15-5-30

    Arizona
    Ari. Rev. Stat. Tit. 13, Ch. 24-12 (enacted 2005)

    Arkansas
    Ark. Code Ann. §5-71-213(a)(1)

    Colorado
    Colo. Rev. Stat. §16-3-103(1)

    Delaware
    Del. Code Ann., Tit. 11, §§1902, 1321(6)

    Florida
    Fla. Stat. §856.021(2)

    Georgia
    Ga. Code Ann. §16-11-36(b) (loitering statute)

    Illinois
    Ill. Comp. Stat., ch. 725, §5/107-14

    Indiana
    Indiana Code §34-28-5-3.5

    Kansas
    Kan. Stat. Ann. §22-2402(1)

    Louisiana
    La. Code Crim. Proc. Ann., Art. 215.1(A)

    Missouri
    Mo. Rev. Stat. §84.710(2)

    Montana
    Mont. Code Ann. §46-5-401

    Nebraska
    Neb. Rev. Stat. §29-829

    Nevada
    Nev. Rev. Stat. §171.123

    New Hampshire
    N. H. Rev. Stat. Ann. §594:2

    New Mexico
    N. M. Stat. Ann. §30-22-3

    New York
    N. Y. Crim. Proc. Law (CPL) §140.50 (1)

    North Dakota
    N.D. Cent. Code §29-29-21 (PDF)

    Ohio
    Ohio Rev. Code §2921.29 (enacted 2006)

    Rhode Island
    R. I. Gen. Laws §12-7-1

    Utah
    Utah Code Ann. §77-7-15

    Vermont
    Vt. Stat. Ann., Tit. 24, §1983

    Wisconsin
    Wis. Stat. §968.24









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    Important to note the above is during investigation of criminal activity, not just random harassment - like CA's bygone statute.
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    So are you saying if it's harassment you don't have to provide I.D. but for criminal investigation you do?

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    You will never know at the time of the police encounterIF the detention is unlawful or the demand for ID is unlawful in thosejurisdictions (which could include municipal codes)which have Hiibel compliant statutes). They may very well be lawful based on the information the police have been givenwhich allows a"terry investigative stop" based on reasonable suspicion (RS).

    So to avoid resisting/obstructing charges or violating other laws, it is imperative to obey orders (make sure it's an order, not a request, and get it on tape). Afterward one can PRAR public documents to determine what information the police had AT the time you were detained to see if it met the RS standards of "Terry".

    Recourse after that may include filing a complaint with local LEA internal affairs and orCounty, stateor FBI public integritydivisions, speaking to city councils, contacting the mediaand or hiring/finding an attorney to sue for civil violations.

    But to help document the truth of what happened one should always carry a recording device.




    "no hassle" open carry in Washington State:

  21. #21
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    cato wrote:
    So to avoid resisting/obstructing charges or violating other laws, it is imperative to obey orders (make sure it's an order, not a request, and get it on tape). Afterward one can PRAR public documents to determine what information the police had AT the time you were detained to see if it met the RS standards of "Terry".
    Does this effectively mean that we don't have the right to remain silent if police officers are conducting an actual investigation (and not just seeing what the OCer is up to)? I haven't had any police contact to date, but I've planned on not saying a thing. Since I've always sterile carried, even if I was searched I wouldn't be identifiable. I would identify myself if that is legally required under certain situations.

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    bigtoe416 wrote:
    Does this effectively mean that we don't have the right to remain silent if police officers are conducting an actual investigation (and not just seeing what the OCer is up to)? I haven't had any police contact to date, but I've planned on not saying a thing. Since I've always sterile carried, even if I was searched I wouldn't be identifiable. I would identify myself if that is legally required under certain situations.
    Only if you are being stopped in a state listed above. CA has no "Stop and Identify" statute, so Hiibel doesn't apply.
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    Well it definintely applies here in Concord. They've been doing it for years now. I don't understand how they get away with it when they know themselves it's against the law.

  24. #24
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    You don't ever, ever, ever have to talk to the police. It doesn't matter what they are investigating. Watch these two videos.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The rights existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Poblacht32 wrote:
    Well it definintely applies here in Concord. They've been doing it for years now. I don't understand how they get away with it when they know themselves it's against the law.
    No, Hibbel does not apply. If the police in Concord, CA are demanding ID, then they are doing so with no legal standing.

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