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Thread: Be proactive and change the perspective of OC

  1. #1
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    Several days ago I told Mr. Jeff's that he ran me off, well I stepped back took another look at his comments:

    1) How long do we have to put up with the "barney fifes" before we say enough is enough

    2) The police are not your brother or your friend, there job is to charge you with crimes and they are trained in how to violate your rights( you are wrong with this statement)

    And i looked at kimberguy's vido with the JPD, and the harassing that is going on in Jackson, is wrong and BS!! But look at it from a different aspect, and that is, how MIOC is promoting itself. If you want oc'ing to be accepted by the LEO community and the public community, you have to be proactive and change the perspective of it and change the attitude of the above statements.

    If you the MIOC want to be accepted by LEO community and the public, then start with holding a "summit" or conference with the top cops of each county until you get them all. Sit down with the top cops of each Dept. and the PA's and invite the director of the MSP academy along with the other police academy's EDUCATE THEM then hold a public forum, invite the news media the street cops,EDUCATE THEM

    You say "we did this"...well do it again, BECAUSE WALKING AROUND TOWN SHOWING A GUN ON YOUR HIP IS'NT CUTTING IT!!! It was said several times, it "freaks people out"I did not know you existed until i came across the web site. MIOC held a picnic in the flint area a couple years back..I've worked in flint for almost 10 yrs. never heard of MIOC WHY??? NO PR WORK IS BEING DONE!!!

    All you are doing is putting a stick in the bee hive and irritating the hive,STOP DOING THAT!!!EDUCATE, EDUCATE, EDUCATE, PROMOTE, PROMOTE, PROMOTE!!!!!!!

    why not use the wash, rinse ,and repeat approach.

    Wash( sit down hold a summit and train the top cops so they can train the work force)

    Rinse (hold a public forum, with the media coverage, )

    Repeat (until it starts to work)

    Mr. Jeffs said:We did officially by snail mail send out the information to all 83 county sheriffs. What they do with it I can't control. I have also sent the information to many major PD's in the state.Many smaller PD's may not have access to the information, but I think the word around andmost PD's are aware of OC( needs to be done agian??)

    You can look at it another way, The President of the UNITED STATES has to "sell the American public his policy so we stand behind him...right??!! So sell OPEN CARRY!! you just can't rely on sending out LEO packets and hopingit gets around by word ofmouth, YOU HAVE TO SELL IT!!!!


    This just my view of a great movement and of MIOC but just step back for a minute and take another look at how you can get it out there and "why oc is not accepted by LEO's and the public".

    I know that some Depts have somebad apples in them, well, lets work to turn them around.





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    Glock 19 wrote:
    Several days ago I told Mr. Jeff's that he ran me off, well I stepped back took another look at his comments:

    1) How long do we have to put up with the "barney fifes" before we say enough is enough

    2) The police are not your brother or your friend, there job is to charge you with crimes and they are trained in how to violate your rights( you are wrong with this statement)

    And i looked at kimberguy's vido with the JPD, and the harassing that is going on in Jackson, is wrong and BS!! But look at it from a different aspect, and that is, how MIOC is promoting itself. If you want oc'ing to be accepted by the LEO community and the public community, you have to be proactive and change the perspective of it and change the attitude of the above statements.

    If you the MIOC want to be accepted by LEO community and the public, then start with holding a "summit" or conference with the top cops of each county until you get them all. Sit down with the top cops of each Dept. and the PA's and invite the director of the MSP academy along with the other police academy's EDUCATE THEM then hold a public forum, invite the news media the street cops,Â*EDUCATE THEM

    You say "we did this"...well do it again, BECAUSE WALKING AROUND TOWN SHOWING A GUN ON YOUR HIP IS'NT CUTTING IT!!! It was said several times, it "freaks people out"I did not know you existed until i came across the web site. MIOC held a picnic in the flint area a couple years back..I've worked in flint for almost 10 yrs. never heard of MIOC WHY??? NO PR WORK IS BEING DONE!!!

    All you are doing is putting a stick in the bee hive and irritatingÂ* the hive,STOP DOING THAT!!!EDUCATE, EDUCATE, EDUCATE, PROMOTE, PROMOTE, PROMOTE!!!!!!!

    why not use the wash, rinse ,and repeat approach.

    Wash( sit down hold a summit and train the top cops so they can train the work force)

    Rinse (hold a public forum, with the media coverage, )

    RepeatÂ* (until it starts to work)

    Mr. Jeffs said:We did officially by snail mail send out the information to all 83 county sheriffs. What they do with it I can't control. I have also sent the information to many major PD's in the state.Many smaller PD's may not have access to the information, but I think the word around andÂ*most PD's are aware of OC( needs to be done agian??)

    You can look at it another way, The President of the UNITED STATES has to "sell the American public his policy so we stand behind him...right??!! So sell OPEN CARRY!! you just can't rely on sending out LEO packets and hopingÂ*it gets around by word ofÂ*mouth, YOU HAVE TO SELL IT!!!!


    This just my view of a great movement and of MIOC but just step back for a minute and take another look at how you can get it out there and "why oc is not accepted by LEO's and the public".

    I know that some Depts have someÂ*bad apples in them, well, lets work to turn them around.
    Â*Â*
    [size="3"]

    OK, first I'd like to say I have no idea what the context of your top 1,2 quotes are therefore your snipit's of what he said is pretty much nonsense to the most of us.

    Do you have a transcript of your conversation? If you dont I suggest you **** or you're trying to act like the Liberal Lame Stream Media.

    Secondly, don't you think all these years we've done nothing to educate police about the issue. I dont speak for the MOC but the MOC isn't responsible for training the police. I would assume this would be the police chief of the specific jurisdiction responsibility.

    The fact is there are people in office that are anti-gun rights. This makes it impossible to deal with the department without the videos like you're seeing on my Youtube site. It's a matter of fact we've gone out of our way in Warren to get the word out. Before you go jumping to way to many conclusions about MOC I feel you need to get more info and ask the right questions.

    From the sounds of it something you said pissed people off. Examples of things we've done in Warren alone is a good example of what I'm talking about. Check the Youtube site as we went in front of the Warren City Council to explain open carry and what's taken place in Warren and to remove their illegal city ordinance (which they promptly did). We've also attempted to speak with the chief of police for quite some time and he's ignored us in in all our efforts. There are anti's out there many of them and the ones had the highest offices can block attempts to educate therefor many of them are untrained as to open carry and what to.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    You do make some valid points. The JPD is a good example, the chief and p.a., have been talked to and acknowledge OC is legal and look what's still happening. There has been talk of a march in Jackson, I don't really agree with this approach as it is an "in you face" gathering. Brian (Venator) and I have always disagreed on this. I have come to understand his point of view but still hold my opinion as sometimes these gatherings appear as a looking for trouble meeting. On the other side of things; as you say, talk to the leaders of the counties and leo agencies. I for one can say this has been tried more than once. We have invited them to picnics for a casual discussion, and asked for "official" meetings in their offices...these requests have always been denied. The only time I have seen any of the LEO "chief's", show up at any of our outings was the Warren picnic; and even then it was only because of extreme overreaction by the WPD to our gathering. They even assigned a SWAT van to our location, along with two sniper's on opposite sides of the park! Does this give you an idea of just how hard it is for some LEO departments to get on board?
    Brian and I butted heads when I first joined the forum, we are now what I would consider the best of friends. He only states what has been tried and from experience he and other members of this forum have been through. So by all means, stick around; we like fresh input and ideas, if you have idea's of a better way to meet our end goal, present them. Don't however take it personal if you get the old "been there, done that" answer. If you were to read many of the "old" posts, you would see just how much has been tried; not counting the behind the scenes activity going on. Your ideas are welcome, but you also have to be receptive and ready for opposing views. As Brian and I have on many points...we agree to disagree, and still remain friends.
    So I say welcome to MOC, we look forward to your participation.
    Jerry Brewer

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    WARCHILD wrote:
    You do make some valid points. The JPD is a good example, the chief and p.a., have been talked to and acknowledge OC is legal and look what's still happening. There has been talk of a march in Jackson, I don't really agree with this approach as it is an "in you face" gathering. Brian (Venator) and I have always disagreed on this. I have come to understand his point of view but still hold my opinion as sometimes these gatherings appear as a looking for trouble meeting. On the other side of things; as you say, talk to the leaders of the counties and leo agencies. I for one can say this has been tried more than once. We have invited them to picnics for a casual discussion, and asked for "official" meetings in their offices...these requests have always been denied. The only time I have seen any of the LEO "chief's", show up at any of our outings was the Warren picnic; and even then it was only because of extreme overreaction by the WPD to our gathering. They even assigned a SWAT van to our location, along with two sniper's on opposite sides of the park! Does this give you an idea of just how hard it is for some LEO departments to get on board?
    Brian and I butted heads when I first joined the forum, we are now what I would consider the best of friends. He only states what has been tried and from experience he and other members of this forum have been through. So by all means, stick around; we like fresh input and ideas, if you have idea's of a better way to meet our end goal, present them. Don't however take it personal if you get the old "been there, done that" answer. If you were to read many of the "old" posts, you would see just how much has been tried; not counting the behind the scenes activity going on. Your ideas are welcome, but you also have to be receptive and ready for opposing views. As Brian and I have on many points...we agree to disagree, and still remain friends.
    So I say welcome to MOC, we look forward to your participation.
    Jerry BrewerÂ*
    [size="3"]

    You reflected pretty much what I said. As to the marches, once we've done all we've could it is the tried an true freedom of speech rallies and public display of protest that gets the word out faster then anything else and draws attention to the cause without having to spend a warchest which is pretty much what it cost these days to advertise causes. There is nothing wrong with protest good examples of postive protesting has been the Tea Party Express!!!!!!!!!!!! Even protesting at the town hall meetings brought the needed attention the healthcare "socialism" that the lame stream liberal drive-by media was trying to ignore. The only true way to stand up for violation of rights is peaceful protest. There are so many examples Martin Luther King stands up at the highest. I'm not saying doing this violently or invading someones private property or any unlawful protesting. I'm speaking of legal peaceful protesting.

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    I think Glock 19's suggestions are valid. Truth be told, Cabman was just talking about this idea (to hold a forum and invite the top officers in Jackson to come) with me and Kimberguy the other day. It is something that has been done

    Most of the ideas you have suggested though G19 have been tried, just not everywhere. Just walking around OCing does help though, though we obviously have not stopped there. The Jackson area had 3 picnincs just this past summer, and a food drive less than a month ago. All but one of these but one picnic made the paper.

    Even one when several of us Jackson OCer's were OCing, 3 of us encounter the police (and we were not with each other. These all made the local paper, but we didn't promote the paper to print it, the police did.

    So this does prove that walking around OCing does help advertise the movement, but I agree that it should not stop there. Thank you for your suggestions, and welcome back.

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    Don't forget on 8/16/08 we had a picnic in Warren,where Commisioner Dwyer,Captain Pavlik and several LEO's attended.We also had front page articles in the Macomb Daily on 8/14/08 & 8/17/08 and were on channel 4 news at 6pm on 8/16/08.I personaly sent certified letters to Dwyer,Hackel,Macomb Daily,Detroit news of the facts and laws regarding open carry in June of 08', to notify them of my open carry.Dwyer sits on the executive commitee of the Michigan Citizens for Handgun Control.I have Norb Franz,from the Macomb Daily,in the loop on my incident with WPD for a future story to educate Warren citizens again on whats going on in Warren.When thats set up I may go to the TV news.It's not easy getting the media folks to report these things to the people.This will not be easy at all!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    Please don't misunderstand what my comments were saying. In no way am I saying stop talking about new ideas. I myself love to see all the idea's people have on hear. I'd definitely like to see some new ideas that haven't been done yet. Maybe we can come up with a point by point plan city by city and county by county to roll out open carry related activities. Kinda like a check list and do all we can until we cover Michigan.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Mike; we must have been posting at the same time. I read your post right after I posted mine. I do agree protesting does work and should be used as a means to inform. I guess I'm more of an individual worker than confrontational, contact those who need it directly. I do support demonstrations and have joined in them before. I feel demonstrations are in the last resort category. If there is a march in Jackson I will try to attend (funds permitting) to support our movement. Jackson and other pd's have made it a last resort choice. I don't really care for but putting my personal feelings aside I will be there to support it.

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    T Vance wrote:
    I think Glock 19's suggestions are valid. Truth be told, Cabman was just talking about this idea (to hold a forum and invite the top officers in Jackson to come) with me and Kimberguy the other day. It is something that has been done

    Most of the ideas you have suggested though G19 have been tried, just not everywhere. Just walking around OCing does help though, though we obviously have not stopped there. The Jackson area had 3 picnincs just this past summer, and a food drive less than a month ago. All but one of these but one picnic made the paper.

    Even one when several of us Jackson OCer's were OCing, 3 of us encounter the police (and we were not with each other. These all made the local paper, but we didn't promote the paper to print it, the police did.

    So this does prove that walking around OCing does help advertise the movement, but I agree that it should not stop there. Thank you for your suggestions, and welcome back.
    Yah what he said!!!!

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    Glock 19 wrote:
    Several days ago I told Mr. Jeff's that he ran me off, well I stepped back took another look at his comments:

    1) How long do we have to put up with the "barney fifes" before we say enough is enough

    2) The police are not your brother or your friend, there job is to charge you with crimes and they are trained in how to violate your rights( you are wrong with this statement)

    And i looked at kimberguy's vido with the JPD, and the harassing that is going on in Jackson, is wrong and BS!! But look at it from a different aspect, and that is, how MIOC is promoting itself. If you want oc'ing to be accepted by the LEO community and the public community, you have to be proactive and change the perspective of it and change the attitude of the above statements.

    If you the MIOC want to be accepted by LEO community and the public, then start with holding a "summit" or conference with the top cops of each county until you get them all. Sit down with the top cops of each Dept. and the PA's and invite the director of the MSP academy along with the other police academy's EDUCATE THEM then hold a public forum, invite the news media the street cops,EDUCATE THEM

    You say "we did this"...well do it again, BECAUSE WALKING AROUND TOWN SHOWING A GUN ON YOUR HIP IS'NT CUTTING IT!!! It was said several times, it "freaks people out"I did not know you existed until i came across the web site. MIOC held a picnic in the flint area a couple years back..I've worked in flint for almost 10 yrs. never heard of MIOC WHY??? NO PR WORK IS BEING DONE!!!

    All you are doing is putting a stick in the bee hive and irritating the hive,STOP DOING THAT!!!EDUCATE, EDUCATE, EDUCATE, PROMOTE, PROMOTE, PROMOTE!!!!!!!

    why not use the wash, rinse ,and repeat approach.

    Wash( sit down hold a summit and train the top cops so they can train the work force)

    Rinse (hold a public forum, with the media coverage, )

    Repeat (until it starts to work)

    Mr. Jeffs said:We did officially by snail mail send out the information to all 83 county sheriffs. What they do with it I can't control. I have also sent the information to many major PD's in the state.Many smaller PD's may not have access to the information, but I think the word around andmost PD's are aware of OC( needs to be done agian??)

    You can look at it another way, The President of the UNITED STATES has to "sell the American public his policy so we stand behind him...right??!! So sell OPEN CARRY!! you just can't rely on sending out LEO packets and hopingit gets around by word ofmouth, YOU HAVE TO SELL IT!!!!


    This just my view of a great movement and of MIOC but just step back for a minute and take another look at how you can get it out there and "why oc is not accepted by LEO's and the public".

    I know that some Depts have somebad apples in them, well, lets work to turn them around.



    I'd have to say the police ARE trained in how to violate your rights. Put another way; they are trained to get you give up your rights as well.

    A lot of things freak people out. Too bad! Purple hair freakes people out. Black people freak people out in certain communities. Gays freak people out. Muslims freak people out. Certain uniforms freak people out. Certain kinds of music freaks people out. Motorcycles freak people out. A lot of different things freak some people out. Someone being freaked out, afraid, worried...is not a legal reason for LEO to demand ID. The fact remains, OC is not against the law in the State of Michigan and Michigan is NOT a show ID state.

    Equating law enforcement to a beehive that we should be afraid of and be wary of bothering is nonsense to me. People who are not committing a crime should NEVER be harassed by the police! EVER!


    In June of 2008, the OC event in Burton was reported extensively by the Flint Journal.


    “Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.” - George Bernard Shaw

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    mikestilly wrote:
    Glock 19 wrote

    Do you have a transcript of your conversation? If you dont I suggest you **** or you're trying to act like the Liberal Lame Stream Media.


    That's just unnecessary. He's trying to help!

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Those who think quiet and gentle methods, which really amount to begging to be heard, will work have not paid attention to how many anti gun gains have been made in the past few decades over the "quiet and gentle" protestations of the citizenry and even the NRA.

    Those who do not understand what gains can be made by doing the right thing "in your face" so to speak do not know who Rosa Parks was. Nor do they understand that until someone stands up... stands up on their two hind feet and refuses to be intimidated... nothing will change.

    Open carry is a legal way of standing up and demanding that the natural born right to keep and bear arms be recognized... recognized even by those who do not agree. Recognized even by those who wish for guns to be ... "sent to the back of the bus".

    One last thing I wish to emphasize... the Bill of Rights is often not understood in it's true meaning. The Bill of Rights is NOT a list of things the government allows it's citizens to do.... it is a list of things the citizens will NOT allow the government to do!!! And one of those things the citizens have told the government SHALL NOT to do is to infringe upon the individual natural born right to keep and bear arms.



    Ok... I'm climbing off my soapbox now.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    mikestilly wrote:
    Glock 19 wrote:
    Several days ago I told Mr. Jeff's that he ran me off, well I stepped back took another look at his comments:

    1) How long do we have to put up with the "barney fifes" before we say enough is enough

    2) The police are not your brother or your friend, there job is to charge you with crimes and they are trained in how to violate your rights( you are wrong with this statement)

    And i looked at kimberguy's vido with the JPD, and the harassing that is going on in Jackson, is wrong and BS!! But look at it from a different aspect, and that is, how MIOC is promoting itself. If you want oc'ing to be accepted by the LEO community and the public community, you have to be proactive and change the perspective of it and change the attitude of the above statements.

    If you the MIOC want to be accepted by LEO community and the public, then start with holding a "summit" or conference with the top cops of each county until you get them all. Sit down with the top cops of each Dept. and the PA's and invite the director of the MSP academy along with the other police academy's EDUCATE THEM then hold a public forum, invite the news media the street cops,EDUCATE THEM

    You say "we did this"...well do it again, BECAUSE WALKING AROUND TOWN SHOWING A GUN ON YOUR HIP IS'NT CUTTING IT!!! It was said several times, it "freaks people out"I did not know you existed until i came across the web site. MIOC held a picnic in the flint area a couple years back..I've worked in flint for almost 10 yrs. never heard of MIOC WHY??? NO PR WORK IS BEING DONE!!!

    All you are doing is putting a stick in the bee hive and irritating the hive,STOP DOING THAT!!!EDUCATE, EDUCATE, EDUCATE, PROMOTE, PROMOTE, PROMOTE!!!!!!!

    why not use the wash, rinse ,and repeat approach.

    Wash( sit down hold a summit and train the top cops so they can train the work force)

    Rinse (hold a public forum, with the media coverage, )

    Repeat (until it starts to work)

    Mr. Jeffs said:We did officially by snail mail send out the information to all 83 county sheriffs. What they do with it I can't control. I have also sent the information to many major PD's in the state.Many smaller PD's may not have access to the information, but I think the word around andmost PD's are aware of OC( needs to be done agian??)

    You can look at it another way, The President of the UNITED STATES has to "sell the American public his policy so we stand behind him...right??!! So sell OPEN CARRY!! you just can't rely on sending out LEO packets and hopingit gets around by word ofmouth, YOU HAVE TO SELL IT!!!!


    This just my view of a great movement and of MIOC but just step back for a minute and take another look at how you can get it out there and "why oc is not accepted by LEO's and the public".

    I know that some Depts have somebad apples in them, well, lets work to turn them around.

    [size=3]

    OK, first I'd like to say I have no idea what the context of your top 1,2 quotes are therefore your snipit's of what he said is pretty much nonsense to the most of us.

    Do you have a transcript of your conversation? If you dont I suggest you **** or you're trying to act like the Liberal Lame Stream Media.

    Secondly, don't you think all these years we've done nothing to educate police about the issue. I dont speak for the MOC but the MOC isn't responsible for training the police. I would assume this would be the police chief of the specific jurisdiction responsibility.

    The fact is there are people in office that are anti-gun rights. This makes it impossible to deal with the department without the videos like you're seeing on my Youtube site. It's a matter of fact we've gone out of our way in Warren to get the word out. Before you go jumping to way to many conclusions about MOC I feel you need to get more info and ask the right questions.

    From the sounds of it something you said pissed people off. Examples of things we've done in Warren alone is a good example of what I'm talking about. Check the Youtube site as we went in front of the Warren City Council to explain open carry and what's taken place in Warren and to remove their illegal city ordinance (which they promptly did). We've also attempted to speak with the chief of police for quite some time and he's ignored us in in all our efforts. There are anti's out there many of them and the ones had the highest offices can block attempts to educate therefor many of them are untrained as to open carry and what to.
    That's fricking point, they are fishing to find something to pin on you. The Police are not your brother or your friend, there job is to charge you with crimes and they are trained in how to violate your rights.

    If they followed the Law, the first thing they would say to a "contact" is, "l just want you to know that you don't have to answer any of my questions, in fact If I don't have any RAS you are free to go"... yet they don't.

    We need to stand up for our rights and to stop complying with unlawful commands. Speak truth to authority.

    This is meant to be a general statement and not all LEO's abuse their powers, but those that do can destroy a persons life in a second. And that should piss every law-abiding citizens of a free state off


    posted sun nov. 22

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    great plan of attack!!!! county by county rome wasnt built in a day!!

    persistance will pay off

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    jvanhorn wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    Glock 19 wrote

    Do you have a transcript of your conversation? If you dont I suggest you **** or you're trying to act like the Liberal Lame Stream Media.


    That's just unnecessary. He's trying to help!
    thank you for the support

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    T Vance wrote:
    I think Glock 19's suggestions are valid. Truth be told, Cabman was just talking about this idea (to hold a forum and invite the top officers in Jackson to come) with me and Kimberguy the other day. It is something that has been done

    Most of the ideas you have suggested though G19 have been tried, just not everywhere. Just walking around OCing does help though, though we obviously have not stopped there. The Jackson area had 3 picnincs just this past summer, and a food drive less than a month ago. All but one of these but one picnic made the paper.

    Even one when several of us Jackson OCer's were OCing, 3 of us encounter the police (and we were not with each other. These all made the local paper, but we didn't promote the paper to print it, the police did.

    So this does prove that walking around OCing does help advertise the movement, but I agree that it should not stop there. Thank you for your suggestions, and welcome back.
    ok to many to respond to here, thanks for the good replys.

    ok so you have had marches in metro area, a picnic in flint area back in '08..

    nothing north of flint....

    if you contact the tv news your self and say..hey do i have a police harrassment story for you...ie;jackson pd... they will come,they love dirt!!!!!

    I like what mikestilly said, city by city, county by county, (and invite the tops cops and pa's to everything, along with the news media) i also have a nephew who writes for a paper in the tri-city area...

    guess what i am saying keep pounding it into them..remeber the little train that could!!! not that i like him but obama said "yes we can" it paid off for him...not that i support him because i dont..but....

    thanks agian for the good replys..just trying to help


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    I recently suggested that Kimberguy's videos should find there way to the local media.

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    I am working on a traveling class for law enforcement I am trying to assemble a task force so to say that can dedicate 2 sundays a month to the cause.I am looking into finding a law enforcement officer (retired or current)and a few others.So the idea has been at work for a while

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    I think all of the police departments have been given enough information, I hate to say it but ultimately it is most likely going to be lawsuits that get them to train their officers.

    If you recall I posted a link a bit back of someone from the Ann arbor police dept saying they were not allowed to detain people for OCing anymore due to a recent 600,000 lawsuit. It is sad but it took legal action to get them to inform their officers of the proper action to take. ( the post I made did not specify if the lawsuit was against them and I dont know if it was but just the size of it where ever it was got their attention )

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    choover wrote:
    I think all of the police departments have been given enough information, I hate to say it but ultimately it is most likely going to be lawsuits that get them to train their officers.

    If you recall I posted a link a bit back of someone from the Ann arbor police dept saying they were not allowed to detain people for OCing anymore due to a recent 600,000 lawsuit. It is sad but it took legal action to get them to inform their officers of the proper action to take. ( the post I made did not specify if the lawsuit was against them and I dont know if it was but just the size of it where ever it was got their attention )
    Do you have a reference to this suit? Are cases such as this one being included with any current correspondence with police departments? If not, why? It could be the sobering slap that some of these departments need. Then if they still don't get it, the gloves come off.
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

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    Both sides on this issue have valid points. Glock 19 makes a great point, that LEO's are not considerate of you when they perform an investigation on you (IE: whenever they approach and inquire of your identity). As a former LEO myself, I can say with impunity, that we assuredly preyed on the ignorance of the public. It's very easy for a LEO to discern whether a person is knowledgable of the law or not by how they respond. If you are a person who flaps at the gums and answers every question the LEO asks, you can therefore be considered ignorant of the law and are fair game. Blasting LEO's for hanging you out to dry because you cannot keep your mouth shut, or by showing video of someone flapping their gums to LEO's, then slamming those LEO's for holding you on the stop for 30 minutes is complete nonsense. LEO's will always force you to talk. If you exercize your 5th, and then a minute later say something, then you have voluntarily gave up your 5th, and are now fair game. You must reinstate your 5th verbally again to breing the questioning to a stop, or at least the harassment. What you say will put you away. Conversing with LEO's while detained buries you. The more you talk about your rights to them, the more you piss them off, and the more they will single you out. The videos prove it. The videos are excellent training for "how NOT to act when detained by LEO's." I also agree the LEO's need to be taken to task when they blatantly violate your rights. But showing stupidity in the form of jabbering at the mouth shows an ignorance for the law, and puts the officer in a better light than you, because they completely owned you as long as you kept talking. They will not release you as long as they believe they can get you to say something that will hang you. If they keep you on a stop for more than 20 minutes for no reason, then they can be sued for unlawful detention and harassment. Again, the term "reasonable" comes to mind. I was ALWAYS told to release someone within 20 minutes if I had no lawful reason to further detain a person. Everyone should have a LEO OC pamphlet with them at all times. Everything a LEO needs to know is in there and there is NOTHING you can say to make it better for you. ANYTHING you say WILL BE HELD AGAINST YOU! Not for you! Be nice and courtious. Follow the law without coming across as a lawyer. LEO's hate lawyers more than anything. Use your brains AND the law and you have the upper hand. Just using the law and leaving your brains at home will get you hung every time...especially when you have a gun on your hip.
    Long Live the Republic!

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    American Sheepdog wrote:
    SNIP If you exercize your 5th, and then a minute later say something, then you have voluntarily gave up your 5th, and are now fair game. 1) You must reinstate your 5th verbally again to breing the questioning to a stop...2) If they keep you on a stop for more than 20 minutes for no reason, then they can be sued for unlawful detention and harassment.
    Cites, please.

    1A) Cite for reinstating 5A verbally.

    1B) Cite for a citizen invoking 5A requires police to stopquestioning during a detention.

    2) Cite for keeping someone on a stop for 20 minutes for no reason being unlawful.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Glock 19 wrote:

    if you contact the tv news your self and say..hey do i have a police harrassment story for you...ie;jackson pd... they will come,they love dirt!!!!!
    But the media is very lib and very "anti-gun", they will most likely not cover it at all, and if they do it will be one sided, like "gun nuts, harrass cops", or "gun nuts fishing for a law suit".
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
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    God Bless

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    I really like Glock19. He's thinking like a street smart individual with a handle on the politics of the real world.

    If I am detained while lawfully OC'ing, my impression of the intent of the officer will be very sudden. If the encounter shows a friendly confrontation, and the LEO LEARNS from his superiors that I am within the law, and he politely sends me on my way without any punishment...I will take the encounter at face value and realize that an education just took place...with no hard feelings. If the same officer repeats an encounter, knowing full well the law he previously learned, then City Council will be forced to take disciplinary action toward the LEO or be sued. I am not in the mood to have my rights completely fractured by any LEO with a vendetta. I completely support my local LEO's. But the laws are clear, so long as I carry myself in a professional and respectful manner according to the law, and become a helping hand to society, then LEO's have absolutely no lawful reason to approach me and violate my rights (detain me). Give credit to the LEO's who hold your rights as soverign. Take to task those who seek to fracture them. Very few people are willing to take them to task, which makes it harder on the rest of us. Laws can be, and are twisted and bent. Just make sure the violations of your rights are extraordinary before filing suit. Cut and dry violations cannot be overlooked by judges and jury's. Repated offenses go a long way to making your case. We DO NOT wish to penalize LEO's who are acting reasonably, or have respect for our rights. But abusive departmental policies must be confronted or they will continue. It's just a fact.

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