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Thread: chatting at oc get-together - take out your gun? PART TWO

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    Fearing this post would get lost being at the end of my original post I decided to repost with slightlymodified subject line.

    First, thank you all for the replies but I think I should have mention that because I'm in CAOCpublic meetingsare done with UNLOADED weapons. I suppose in future posts I should make it clear that when referring to anyOC subject matter that I mean UOC. I didn't realize that get togethers in other parts of the country people meet with LOADED weapons. Sorry folks, from now on I'll make myself more clear so that those that reply keep in mind that I mean *unloaded* OC. Sorry for the confusion. *But* I'm still confused why peoplewould meet with LOC in public. Obviously all have proper permits to CCW in order to carry LOC, so why not just meet and shoot the bull but with weapons concealed? And the advice re: "show and tell" is well taken. I'm a memeber of a group of shooters that meet at a range once a month and I'll leave the show and tell at that venue. btw, our club is called"The Triple GShooters." (guys, gals, guns)

    Thank you all







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    Hawaii FiveO wrote:
    SNIP *But* I'm still confused why peoplewould meet with LOC in public. Obviously all have proper permits to CCW in order to carry LOC, so why not just meet and shoot the bull but with weapons concealed?
    Here is one example:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSaox...layer_embedded

    It is a video of a gun-rights dinner.

    The main reason for meeting is fellowship. The reason for OCing during the fellowship is the same reason(s) for OCing as any other time. Well, except in Virginia--we can't CC in a restaurant licensed to serve alcohol.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Hawaii FiveO wrote:
    SNIP ¬**But* I'm still confused why people¬*would meet with LOC in public.¬* Obviously all have proper permits to CCW in order to carry LOC, so why not just meet and shoot the bull but with weapons concealed?¬*
    Here is one example:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSaox...layer_embedded

    It is a video of a gun-rights dinner.¬*

    The main reason for meeting is fellowship.¬* The reason for OCing during the fellowship is the same reason(s) for OCing as any other time.¬* Well, except in Virginia--we can't CC in a restaurant licensed to serve alcohol.
    I agree with Citizen on his answer.

    That said, I would like to respectfully remind the OP that he and all of his OC friends are in fact carrying loaded firearms. Why? Because until It is verified that a firearm is unloaded, it is presumed to be loaded. That verification should be done mechanically and visually every time the firearm is handled for any reason. EVERY TIME. On that basis it does not matter if you THINK the weapon is unloaded or not, it should NOT be removed for examination or handling at an OC event in uncontrolled surroundings. A lot of people have been killed and wounded by "unloaded" firearms.

    So it is good to see that you are on board with keeping your firearm holstered until it is to actually be deployed.
    Regards
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    Hawaii FiveO wrote:
    Fearing this post would get lost being at the end of my original post I decided to repost with slightly¬*modified subject line.

    First, thank you all for the replies but I think I should have mention that because I'm in CA¬*OC¬*public meetings¬*are done with UNLOADED weapons.¬* I suppose in future posts I should make it clear that when referring¬* to any¬*OC subject matter that I mean UOC.¬* I didn't realize that get togethers in other parts of the country people meet with LOADED weapons.¬* Sorry folks, from now on I'll make myself more clear so that those that reply keep in mind that I mean *unloaded* OC.¬* Sorry for the confusion.¬* *But* I'm still confused why people¬*would meet with LOC in public.¬* Obviously all have proper permits to CCW in order to carry LOC, so why not just meet and shoot the bull but with weapons concealed?¬* And the advice re: "show and tell" is well taken.¬* I'm a memeber of a group of shooters that meet at a range once a month and I'll leave the show and tell at that venue.¬* btw, our club is called¬*"The Triple G¬*Shooters."¬* (guys, gals, guns)

    Thank you all

    ¬*

    ¬*

    ¬*
    I honestly think you've been trying to find any excuse you can to encourage/incite the handling of firearms in a situation that due to safety, habit and social decorum literally does not allow for the unholstering and examination of handguns.

    Bad, bad idea all around, even in a California situation that by law requires unloaded OC.

    By all means, gather round the table, swap stories/info, and talk about the iron on your hip. But there is a time and a place for checking out each other's hardware, and that's either in someone's home or perhaps better yet, at a range. Do the "show and tell" serially (no cross-handling of weapons) and with lots and lots of chamber checks with muzzles pointed very much downrange.

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    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    Do you think that the average Californian knows that OC requires an unloaded sidearm? All they are going to think is "gun!". Keep it holstered.

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    Hawaii FiveO wrote:
    Obviously all have proper permits to CCW in order to carry LOC,
    Not necessarily true. In Nevada, there is no permit required to OC a loaded weapon. Without a CCW permit, the only way to legally carry a ready firearm for your protection, is to OC.

    so why not just meet and shoot the bull but with weapons concealed?
    Maybe I don't feel like it. Maybe I prefer to OC. Maybe I don't have a CCW.

    Why should anyone be able to tell me how I should be able to protect myself? What difference does it make how I carry my gun? It should be my choice. Concealed or open, an armed man is still armed. The whole out of sight out of mind, attitude is ridiculous to me.

    You have to remember that most states have much more freedom when it comes to guns than does California.

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    Hawaii FiveO wrote:
    snip.....
    *But* I'm still confused why peoplewould meet with LOC in public. Obviously all have proper permits to CCW in order to carry LOC, so why not just meet and shoot the bull but with weapons concealed?
    Not obvious at all. No permit is required to OC in Virginia - none at all, just be a good citizen and not be otherwise disqualified.

    OCing is the central, uniting theme here - it is both educational and a public statement to those that might wish us harm. As has been said earlier, we must OC in restaurants that serve alcohol in Va. - its the law.

    Perhaps more important, why should we hide them? Will we make someone feel uncomfortable.....and how will they get beyond that? By hiding our guns? I don't think so.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.Ē Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Hawaii FiveO wrote:
    *But* I'm still confused why people¬*would meet with LOC in public.¬* Obviously all have proper permits to CCW in order to carry LOC, so why not just meet and shoot the bull but with weapons concealed
    Other parts of the country allow Loaded OC without permits.

    Also - Most consider it unwise to carry around an unloaded gun if you can help it. You'd be better off carrying a hammer.

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    Double-Tap

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    Hawaii FiveO wrote:
    *But* I'm still confused why peoplewould meet with LOC in public. Obviously all have proper permits to CCW in order to carry LOC, so why not just meet and shoot the bull but with weapons concealed
    Other parts of the country allow Loaded OC without permits.

    Also - Most consider it unwise to carry around an unloaded gun if you can help it. You'd be better off carrying a hammer.
    +1

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    Regular Member MarlboroLts5150's Avatar
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    Plain and simple friend, rule #1 for handling a firearm...TREAT EVERY WEAPON AS IF IT WERE LOADED!

    Nuff said.
    "My dedication to my country's flag rests on my ardent belief in this noblest of causes, equality for all. If my future rests under this earth rather than upon it, I fear not."

    -Leopold Karpeles, US Civil War Medal of Honor Recipient

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    MarlboroLts5150 wrote:
    Plain and simple friend, rule #1 for handling a firearm...TREAT EVERY WEAPON AS IF IT WERE LOADED!

    Nuff said.
    Hey Marlboro, nice to meet you. We lived on Laupapa Pl. (Ewa Estates)I was with HPD '71 to '76. Had the urge to leave HI because there was no future with that department. Terrible pay! Even now I think starting pay is around $31K. Compare that with around $75K here in the bay area. Some day I'll tell you why the pay is so low.

    As for topic. Folks, I've been shooting since 1952. First weapon was a Winchester .22 rifle that believe it or not I still have. Itbelonged to my dad who could shoot a rabbit at 50 yards without a scope and never miss. At night! He learned to shoot in the army in WWII. He fought in the ETO.

    I've attended two police academies and have held a Community College credential teaching police science. I shoot once a month to keep proficient and I have taught my kids since age 5 and up about gun safety. That nowincludes my grandkids who have all shot .22 handgun and rifle but only after thorough, and I mean thorough instructions on gun safety and how to handle firearms. The #1 rule above was something I drilled in their heads over and over.And in the hundred of hours spent teaching and shooting there has never been an incident where safety was compromised. I know I'm knew to the group/forum and though I have qualifications there is always room to learn. And this place is amazing when it comes to learning. A lot better than any classroom I've ever been in. Thank you all!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Hawaii FiveO wrote:
    MarlboroLts5150 wrote:
    Plain and simple friend, rule #1 for handling a firearm...TREAT EVERY WEAPON AS IF IT WERE LOADED!

    Nuff said.
    Hey Marlboro, nice to meet you. We lived on Laupapa Pl. (Ewa Estates)I was with HPD '71 to '76. Had the urge to leave HI because there was no future with that department. Terrible pay! Even now I think starting pay is around $31K. Compare that with around $75K here in the bay area. Some day I'll tell you why the pay is so low.

    As for topic. Folks, I've been shooting since 1952. First weapon was a Winchester .22 rifle that believe it or not I still have. Itbelonged to my dad who could shoot a rabbit at 50 yards without a scope and never miss. At night! He learned to shoot in the army in WWII. He fought in the ETO.

    I've attended two police academies and have held a Community College credential teaching police science. I shoot once a month to keep proficient and I have taught my kids since age 5 and up about gun safety. That nowincludes my grandkids who have all shot .22 handgun and rifle but only after thorough, and I mean thorough instructions on gun safety and how to handle firearms. The #1 rule above was something I drilled in their heads over and over.And in the hundred of hours spent teaching and shooting there has never been an incident where safety was compromised. I know I'm knew to the group/forum and though I have qualifications there is always room to learn. And this place is amazing when it comes to learning. A lot better than any classroom I've ever been in. Thank you all!
    We grade a lot tougher too.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.Ē Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Welcome, Five-O.

    I started Open Carrying less than a year ago. In the short time since then, I have concluded I can't imagine living in a place where I couldn't OC (or even CC) wherever I went, Sunup to Sundown.

    I spent 22 years in the military; retired in 2005. Prior to stumbling acrossthis website (literally), I had NO CLUE the term "OC" existed and thought "CC" was a unit of measurement for motorcycle engines and foreign cars. My first experience with firearms was afew years after Vietnam: My dad came home from there in 1968 andI was 3 years old. My earliest memory was my dad shooting his Remington 511 .22 cal rifle from the bathroom window at a gopher in the backyard. One shot. Gopher missing a cranium. I guess that was around 1969 or 70.

    Joined the Coast Guard in 1983. I carried a 1911 on duty when I first started doing LE in the Coast Guard in 1984. Switched over to the Beretta M9 (Mod 92F at the time) around 86 or 87. Modified a couple hundred 92F's to 92FS "standards" when they started breaking slides and people got hurt. Carried the 92 FS untilretirement in 2005.

    Was invited to test-fire and evaluate the Sig P229DAK for the Coast Guard before I retired. Good gun, but try shooting 1,000 rounds of 40 cal. Double Action Only (DAO) in one morning. My boss told me I had to "get rid of one can" of ammo and then I could go home. Easy day, right? It wasn't as unpleasant as shooting the "Polar Bear Qualification Course" with a .375 H&H Magnum, but it wasn't as much fun as I thought it would be.

    Back OT: I've only been OCing for less than a year, but haven't felt "weird" about it because I had already carried a sidearm for over 20 years. I was NOT prepared for the LOOKS I got when I started OCing "in civilian clothes". Once in a while, someone that hadn't been around the Coast Guard much would ask "I didn't know the Coast Guard carried weapons" and asked when that had happened. The standard response was usually "Since about 1790, I guess..."

    When asked about OCing these days, we need to keep in mind we represent a "movement" and a whole class of people that are trying to make Open Carry "normal" AGAIN before answeringa similar question.
    I say Normal Again because a couple hundred years ago, it was NORMAL for people to carry rifles everywhere they went because of the possibility of attack by hostiles (2-legged and/or4-legged).

    We can always answer with something like "I carry a sidearmbecause I can'tcarry a cop in my back pocket nor couldI afford his weekly donut bill." That response may be amusing to some, but it doesn't answer an honest question from a curious citizen.
    Your response to the Open Carry Question may turn a curious citizen into an Open Carrying Constitutional Scholar or a gun-fearing sheep afraid of all OCers. I would rather win a convert than to scare someone away.

    We need to be seen as NORMAL AVERAGE PEOPLEand what we do as normal behavior. I continue to learn from people on herealong withpeople out in public. Its very interesting watching people's reactions to OC, talking to them, explaining the lawand sharing info about it. I never leave home without some of Jim's "OC Cards" that discuss the laws about OC and CC in our state.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Hawaii FiveO wrote:
    ... I think I should have mention that because I'm in CAOCpublic meetingsare done with UNLOADED weapons. I suppose in future posts I should make it clear that when referring to anyOC subject matter that I mean UOC. I didn't realize that get togethers in other parts of the country people meet with LOADED weapons. ... I'm still confused why peoplewould meet with LOC in public. Obviously all have proper permits to CCW in order to carry LOC, so why not just meet and shoot the bull but with weapons concealed?
    Hard as it is for Californians to comprehend at times, here in the United States, outside the borders of the People's Republic of Kalifornia, open carry of loaded weapons is legal in many if not most states. Rather than ask why people would meet with LOC in public, the question most of us would have is why anyone would wear an empty gun anywhere. Without ammo in it a handgun in a holster is just an extra couple of pounds of weight on one's belt. Many people actually do carry openly on a regular basis simply because it's less expensive than getting a CCW permit.

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    I would NEVER suggest handling a loaded firearm unless it's going to be used for its intended purpose, or cleaning. Mine stays holstered unless it's being shot or cleaned. (with few exceptions)


    When I first started OC'ing, I was looking at getting a few new holsters for different situations, and was instructed by a guy at the gun counter at a local sporting goods store to 'clear my weapon at the customer service counter, they'll give you a ticket that you bring back to me to show it's unloaded'..

    So I trot up to customer service..ask them about this 'ticket or something', and they ask if it's loaded, I tell them it is, they tell me it needs to be unloaded, I ask 'now?', they say 'yeah'... So I look around, don't see anyone, unholster, point down about a foot to my right at the ground near a nice log sculpture, drop mag, clear weapon, show CS rep that it's clear (barrel down, see ejection port through to the mag well, and clear barrel).. I turn around with my newly procured slip, release the slide *SNAP*, and reholster (Serpa)... I turn around to see a couple staring at me like I just called them a name, pretty angry looks on their faces.. They just walked up as I was reholstering (the now cleared/empty pistol)..

    Now, PERSONALLY, I was comfortable in that environment, in hindsight, it wasn't smart to do IMO. The CS rep and everyone 'behind the counter' knew what was going on, but some A-hole behind me seeing me unholster might decide to shoot and ask questions later.

    ANY unholstering is done out of sight, out of plain view.

    I went to a tactical shop about a year later, one man show, owned/operated/etc by one guy who might get 20 customers a day (seems like), to see about holsters fitting my new pistol, I was looking for something with better retention.. This guy actually SUGGESTED I unholster and try it, I told him I wasn't comfortable with it, and he all but called me a wussy (lol), so with noone around except him, and no customers ANYWHERE in his 100x50 shop, I unholstered, cleared the firearm, and starting fitting holsters...

    So. In short.

    In public = NO!
    In Private = OK!

    It's all about the situation you have at hand.

    A gun is not a toy, and the more you handle a loaded gun the more chance there is that you're going to screw something up. If you're not handling it, you can't screw up.

    Same reason why I have a rubber training barrel that replaces my real barrel when I'm practicing drawing or any other reason it would need to be 'used' unloaded.. There's ZERO way a round can be chambered, therefore it's rendered safe.

    A gun is ALWAYS loaded - Remember that.... The only way it can't be loaded is if it's not a gun, Ie. it doesn't have a barrel.
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    I think this vid pretty much sums it up...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIjrv5DDs_I

    Take special note to 5:22
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    TechnoWeenie wrote:
    ANY unholstering is done out of sight, out of plain view.

    So. In short.

    In public = NO!
    In Private = OK!

    It's all about the situation you have at hand.
    Bottom Line: COMMON SENSE indicates the above is correct...
    This is the way to go unless you want to set "The Movement" back about 50 years.

    An unloaded firearm has another name: Hammer.


    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Hawaii FiveO wrote:
    I shoot once a month to keep proficient and I have taught my kids since age 5 and up about gun safety.



    WOW once a month you are a star shot I am sure. keep in mind folks this guy sasy he is or was a LEO. He has no love for OC.

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    Vegassteve wrote:
    Hawaii FiveO wrote:
    I shoot once a month to keep proficient and I have taught my kids since age 5 and up about gun safety.



    WOW once a month you are a star shot I am sure. keep in mind folks this guy sasy he is or was a LEO. He has no love for OC.
    Once a month because the club shoots once a month. However, with winter coming which means rain, we may have to skip a month once in a while. Here in San Jose we have pretty good year-round weather making shooting an almost year-round event. Besides, as a senior I get special price. $7 bucks for all day. That includes one paper target and I can shoot from both handgun side and rifle side. It's owned by the county so prices tend to be cheaper than private ranges. And there are a bunch of range masters to help those that need help whether they are new at shooting are guys like myself who have been shooting for over half century. And these guys are strict about safety. Don't even thing of crossing that red line when cease fire is called! They enforce the rules very strictly and any violations can mean getting kicked out.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Neither snow nor rain nor cold of day will stay this shooter from dispatching his appointed rounds.

    We shoot all year ... Weather is irrelevant. At the very least I have to refresh my carry ammo one a month. I am fortunate that my range is in my back yard. What a great country.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
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    Why OC at an OC gathering? LOL wtf kind of question is that? Why would anyone who OC's, CC at a gathering?

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Hawaii FiveO wrote:
    SNIP *But* I'm still confused why peoplewould meet with LOC in public. Obviously all have proper permits to CCW in order to carry LOC, so why not just meet and shoot the bull but with weapons concealed?
    Here is one example:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSaox...layer_embedded

    It is a video of a gun-rights dinner.

    The main reason for meeting is fellowship. The reason for OCing during the fellowship is the same reason(s) for OCing as any other time. Well, except in Virginia--we can't CC in a restaurant licensed to serve alcohol.
    I agree with Citizen on his answer.

    That said, I would like to respectfully remind the OP that he and all of his OC friends are in fact carrying loaded firearms. Why? Because until It is verified that a firearm is unloaded, it is presumed to be loaded. That verification should be done mechanically and visually every time the firearm is handled for any reason. EVERY TIME. On that basis it does not matter if you THINK the weapon is unloaded or not, it should NOT be removed for examination or handling at an OC event in uncontrolled surroundings. A lot of people have been killed and wounded by "unloaded" firearms.

    So it is good to see that you are on board with keeping your firearm holstered until it is to actually be deployed.
    Regards
    HEAR HEAR!! Just another reason why CA's OC law is stupid and dangerous.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    For my part, if I am carrying a loaded firearm I am doing so in case the unexpected occurs and there is a need for a loaded firearm (and if I am carrying an unloaded firearm I am a damned idiot).

    So suppose I cleared the weapon and am showing all the neat features to someone when some malevolent person suddenly invades the scene (a la VA tech, Ft. Hood, [insert name of mass shooting scene]) unexpectedly (and do they ever invade the scene expectedly?)

    And there I stand with my unloaded weapon like Bob Dole without his Viagra.

    I only expose my gun when action is imminent. Ditto my firearm.

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