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Thread: Open Carry "On Steroids"

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    On April 19, 2010, THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE FIRST SHOT OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTIONARY WAR, I will be at a location in Northern Virginia, as close to DC as possible, and I will be bringing ALL my stuff. I intend to follow all laws as I do this and do not advocate criminal activity. On a purely individual level at this point, I invite, anyone here, especially those of like mind, to join me for a "camping trip," "civics lesson," or whatever you want to call it. 19 April 2010. Northern Virginia. Email works best for me.

    I am of the opinion that the constitution is not being followed, and that what is left of our Republic is on its last legs. I have attended rallies and a health care town hall, and have written my representatives and called on numerous occasions, as have most of us here. As evidenced by the behavior of our elected representatives, they care not that we make noise in opposition or that their actions violate this nation's founding documents and traditional principles of individual liberty and limited government.

    After thousands have vented their frustration via 9-12 rallies, tea parties, health care town halls, etc, the MSM has for the most part ignored and marginalized us, focusing most of their attention on those rally goers who choose to show up carrying weapons. Hmmmmm.........

    Daniel Almond
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    Sorry, that's a day after my birthday. No need to start off a year on the crazy foot.

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    If you're going to go through with it, then at least change the day. I know it's 'symbolic' to choose the same day that McVeigh blew up the OKC building, but that's not an event that open carry needs to be connected with. You'll only play into the hands of the people who think all gun owners are "extremists."

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    BARELY ILLEGAL wrote:
    On April 19, 2010, I will be at a location in Northern Virginia, as close to DC as possible, and I will be bringing ALL my stuff. I intend to follow all laws as I do this and do not advocate criminal activity. On a purely individual level at this point, I invite, anyone here, especially those of like mind, to join me for a "camping trip," "civics lesson," or whatever you want to call it. 19 April 2010. Northern Virginia. Email works best for me.

    I am of the opinion that the constitution is not being followed, and that what is left of our Republic is on its last legs. I have attended rallies and a health care town hall, and have written my representatives and called on numerous occasions, as have most of us here. As evidenced by the behavior of our elected representatives, they care not that we make noise in opposition or that their actions violate this nation's founding documents and traditional principles of individual liberty and limited government.

    After thousands have vented their frustration via 9-12 rallies, tea parties, health care town halls, etc, the MSM has for the most part ignored and marginalized us, focusing most of their attention on those rally goers who choose to show up carrying weapons. Hmmmmm.........

    Daniel Almond
    danieljalmond2004@gmail.com
    404-788-9735
    What is the reason for picking this date?

    Yata hey
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I'd like an answer for that, too.

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    "I will be bringing ALL my stuff".

    Enlighten me, please.

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    Your post was quite vague. Perhaps you'd be so kind as to clarify what a civics lesson camping trip with all of your stuff consists of?

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    like_the_roman wrote:
    If you're going to go through with it, then at least change the day. I know it's 'symbolic' to choose the same day that McVeigh blew up the OKC building, but that's not an event that open carry needs to be connected with. You'll only play into the hands of the people who think all gun owners are "extremists."
    April 19 is the anniversary of the first shot in the American Revolutionary War.



    NOTHING symbolic intended with anything else so far as date choice!

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    ALL MY STUFF:



    Rifle, pistol, ammo, mags, water, snacks, vehicle, cash, flags, and a sign that says "Restore the Constitution." Probably some other stuff as well.

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    NightOwl wrote:
    Your post was quite vague. Perhaps you'd be so kind as to clarify what a civics lesson camping trip with all of your stuff consists of?
    Short answer: Civics lesson consists of educating media, public, and elected officials that the constitution is not being followed and that it needs to be. This is basically set forth in the OP, I think.



    If asked how it is not being followed, I would be prepared with numerous examples, too many to list here. If asked "why are you here with guns,?" my response would be that 1) the media have ignoredthe small-government message of protests of much larger size and focused on what they deem to be "the fringe," especially those who show up at rallies armed. So, I figured I'd up the chances of getting my message across by carrying a rifle and a pistol. 2) The right to bear arms is important to protect the other rights from government tyranny. Look at the example of the protests being crushed by force in Iran, and20 years ago, the Tienanmen square massacre. As an American citizen I have the right to exercise my first and second amendment rights simultaneously.





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    like_the_roman wrote:
    If you're going to go through with it, then at least change the day. I know it's 'symbolic' to choose the same day that McVeigh blew up the OKC building, but
    that's not an event that open carry needs to be connected with.
    You'll only play into the hands of the people who think all gun owners are "extremists."
    I would rather you NOT speak for the entire OPEN CARRY community.

    As for your comment regarding his choice of date, many things happens through out history on any given date. You choose what you want to be remembered for. I stubbed my toe really bad on that day last year.


    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Ill be nearby for the march that day. I think thats a more productive place to be.
    http://secondamendmentmarch.com/

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    BARELY ILLEGAL wrote:
    So, I figured I'd up the chances of getting my message across by carrying a rifle and a pistol. 2) The right to bear arms is important to protect the other rights from government tyranny. Look at the example of the protests being crushed by force in Iran, and20 years ago, the Tienanmen square massacre. As an American citizen I have the right to exercise my first and second amendment rights simultaneously.
    Just a hypothetical situation, all of you bring up 2A as being the tool to protect the other amendments. The first amendment says we have the right to peaceable assembly, it does not say "except on private land," so if you were to hold a protest in front of an establishment forming a picket line and a cop came up and said "Move or I'll move you," would you draw your weapon to protect your right to be there protesting? Or let's say during your pow-wow on 19 APR 2010 (A day before Hitler's birthday and the Columbine school shootings, might rethink the day since that's the crap people are going to think of) the cops start telling you to clear out when you're there peacefully, are you going to tell them they'll have to move you by force?

    Just saying, I've yet to see anyone use weapons to defend their rights against the government, except maybe at Waco depending on who you believe.

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    longwatch wrote:
    Ill be nearby for the march that day. I think thats a more productive place to be.
    http://secondamendmentmarch.com/
    Me too...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    ABNinfantryman wrote:
    BARELY ILLEGAL wrote:
    So, I figured I'd up the chances of getting my message across by carrying a rifle and a pistol. 2) The right to bear arms is important to protect the other rights from government tyranny.┬* Look at the example of the protests being crushed by force in Iran, and┬*20 years ago, the Tienanmen square massacre.┬* As an American citizen I have the right to exercise my first and second amendment rights simultaneously.┬*┬*┬*
    Just a hypothetical situation, all of you bring up 2A as being the tool to protect the other amendments. The first amendment says we have the right to peaceable assembly, it does not say "except on private land," so if you were to hold a protest in front of an establishment forming a picket line and a cop came up and said "Move or I'll move you," would you draw your weapon to protect your right to be there protesting? Or let's say during your pow-wow on 19 APR 2010 (A day before Hitler's birthday and the Columbine school shootings, might rethink the day since that's the crap people are going to think of) the cops start telling you to clear out when you're there peacefully, are you going to tell them they'll have to move you by force?

    Just saying, I've yet to see anyone use weapons to defend their rights against the government, except maybe at Waco depending on who you believe.
    There is no protection for you to violate the private property rights of another person in the Constitution or anyplace else. If you are on private property and the owner wants you to move on, you CAN be moved on. If you attempt to remain on the property of another without his/her permission the law will not stand with you.

    As such there are no grounds for you to take forceful measures against the police or anyone else who may attempt to move you from the property of another at the request of the owner or his/her agent.

    As to the OP there have been a lot of things happen on or around April 19 in this countries history. Some good and some not so good. A lot of people refer to that date as the start of the American revolution. However a lot of people also recognize March 5, 1770 as the start of the American Revolution. That is the date of the "Boston Massacre" and the day Crispus Attucks died. Why not pick that date?

    As for me I think I will choose to avoid your event and work on the Second amendment events that are planned.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Regular Member altajava's Avatar
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    I have a hard time dissagreing with the OP line of thought because...

    "Afterhundreds ofthousands have vented their frustration via 9-12 rallies, tea parties, health care town halls, etc, the MSM as well as our own government,has for the most part ignored and marginalized us, focusing most of their attention on those rally goers who choose to show up carrying weapons."

    Because the million man march wasn't, the park service will not give an official(any) estimateon crowd size. All indications are that the size of the 9/12 march approched one million but nobody in the MSM(herto refered to as the fringe media because they just don't get it)will admit the size of the conservative movment. However I do not belive now is the time for mass armed demonstrations, even if they are fully permited so they can not be shut down.

    On the one hand I would prefer to wait until after the next round of elections in November so we can vote out the thugs in congress. On the other hand I am concerned that November is to far away to make a difference.

    If for some strange reason things do not go our way in November, or before....I don't want to think about it but I suspect that is one of the reasons there is no amunition in the stores.



    1st ammendment Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    However

    "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they
    should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of
    independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would
    include their own government."
    George Washington





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    A few thoughts . . .

    The OP clearly wants this to be some kind of "media event." He wants to educate the media.

    You may as well try to educate a tree.

    Having been part of the media for 40 years, I can tell you that they don't want to be educated, because they are quite sure they are smarter and much better informed than you are, and NOTHING you say can change their minds.

    It is 1. wasteful, 2. pointless, and 3. actually counterproductive to engage in this kind of "educate the media" stunts.

    If you want to be effective, you USE the media to educate the public. This is what I tried to explain to the folks at the Second Amendment March, but finally gave up as they got caught up in T-shirt sales, aligning with folks we don't want the gun movement to be linked to, etc.

    You have to USE the media. To do that, you have to understand what it is that motivates them, gets their attention, and you have to take advantage of their biases.

    It's actually quite easy. You turn their biases upside down.

    Case in point -- the Pink Pistols organization drives the media crazy, because the media can't portray them as mindless, backwoods, mouth-breathing men with guns. Because of the media's support of the gay and lesbian movement, they are forced to treat the Pink Pistols with respect.

    Take that observation, and expand it, then use it to get the media to cover you in the way you want.

    One guy, or a bunch of guys, with guns, packs, water, etc., on the day that a nutjob blew up a bunch of children, is about the dumbest media move possible.

    The media will love it. You'll get lots of coverage. And you will make anti-gunners out of people in the middle, and you will turn many gun owners against open carry.

    Just my view from a lot of years inside the media.

    EDIT: Here's the thing that a lot of gun owners don't get.

    The fact that you are right is totally irrelevant. It is immaterial. It doesn't matter. It does not help you win.

    Knowing HOW to win helps you win. That means knowing how to USE the media, and to do that, you have to understand that motivates the media.

    Get over the "but we are RIGHT" kind of thinking. Yes, we are.

    And it doesn't matter in the battle of who is going to win.

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    Very well put, Mr. Gresham.

    How do we go about doing that? I agree the OP's idea is a bit on the radical side and would probably get media attention, but in the wrong light.

    Do you have any suggestions on how we might USE the media to get our point across? How would we go about getting them to see our side? Are they willing to look at the positive side of OCers and be willing to cover OCing in a POSITIVE light?

    Would they report FACTS about OC and how many lives have been SAVED (and crimes prevented)?

    They're willing to report "jobs saved" and other sillinessperpetrated by the White House and their cronies, but how do we go about instilling some Integrityin Media and in the Second Oldest Profession?
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
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    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
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    You simply create the story the way you want it reported, in a way they can't (or won't) slant it too much.

    Understand, of course, that they will often get the other side to comment.

    For instance, instead of a big, ugly guy carrying a gun, make it a cute woman who has been a victim of a crime, or who has been stalked.

    The man is not a sympathetic character, where the woman is.

    How about a liberal Democrat who carries, or gay man or lesbian woman, or . . . well, you get the drift.

    Then, the person being interviews needs to now HOW to give an interview. Basic rule: No matter what the media asks, you have three points you will talk about, and that's all you will talk about. When asked something different, you use the "bump and run" technique.

    "I know that gun trafficing is something being discussed, but I can take care only of myself and my family, and that's why my experience has led me to getting training and carrying a gun -- to protect my life."

    Bump and run. To see professionals do it, watch politicians being interviewed.

    There's more to it, but the basics are pretty simple.

    The basic mistake often made by those on our side is thinking that they can convince, teach, educate, force or otherwise change the media into reporting fairly on our position.

    If you don't understand that they think we are crazy and dangerous, you don't understand the media.

    You just have to be smart enough to use the system.

    Oh! On the idea of them reporting facts about OC and lives saved . . .

    Perhaps, but only after you tell them a story. If you don't have a story about an individual, don't bother showing up. If that person in the story is not sympathetic, don't bother showing up. If you haven't planned several moves ahead (backgrounder paper, suggested other people to interview, etc.), please, please do not show up. You'll make a mess of it.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Thank you for your words of wisdom. My 18 year old daughter is fairly eloquent and a strong supporter of 2A and OCing. I got her a Glock 21 SF for her 18th birthday eightmonths ago. She's 5' tall. My (almost) 13 year old daughter is starting to get into competitive shooting.

    We'll work from there and see how we can get some media attention (in a positive light, of course).

    Respectfully;

    mike
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    longwatch wrote:
    Ill be nearby for the march that day. I think thats a more productive place to be.
    http://secondamendmentmarch.com/
    Look for the signs and flags along the george Washington Parkway. I and several others will likely be there that day. 2A marchers would definitely be part of the target audience I am trying to reach. I don't know which one would be more productive, and I'm really not trying to get into a competition. I'm all about the 2nd amendment, of course, but I'd also like to excercise it as I protest, which I cannot do in DC without serious risk.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Tom Gresham wrote:
    A few thoughts . . .

    The OP clearly wants this to be some kind of "media event." He wants to educate the media.

    You may as well try to educate a tree.

    Having been part of the media for 40 years, I can tell you that they don't want to be educated, because they are quite sure they are smarter and much better informed than you are, and NOTHING you say can change their minds.

    It is 1. wasteful, 2. pointless, and 3. actually counterproductive to engage in this kind of "educate the media" stunts.

    If you want to be effective, you USE the media to educate the public. This is what I tried to explain to the folks at the Second Amendment March, but finally gave up as they got caught up in T-shirt sales, aligning with folks we don't want the gun movement to be linked to, etc.

    You have to USE the media. To do that, you have to understand what it is that motivates them, gets their attention, and you have to take advantage of their biases.

    It's actually quite easy. You turn their biases upside down.

    Case in point -- the Pink Pistols organization drives the media crazy, because the media can't portray them as mindless, backwoods, mouth-breathing men with guns. Because of the media's support of the gay and lesbian movement, they are forced to treat the Pink Pistols with respect.

    Take that observation, and expand it, then use it to get the media to cover you in the way you want.

    One guy, or a bunch of guys, with guns, packs, water, etc., on the day that a nutjob blew up a bunch of children, is about the dumbest media move possible.

    The media will love it. You'll get lots of coverage. And you will make anti-gunners out of people in the middle, and you will turn many gun owners against open carry.

    Just my view from a lot of years inside the media.

    EDIT: Here's the thing that a lot of gun owners don't get.

    The fact that you are right is totally irrelevant. It is immaterial. It doesn't matter. It does not help you win.

    Knowing HOW to win helps you win. That means knowing how to USE the media, and to do that, you have to understand that motivates the media.

    Get over the "but we are RIGHT" kind of thinking. Yes, we are.

    And it doesn't matter in the battle of who is going to win.
    +1,000,000

    The proof that it isn't a good idea to completely pretend the other side doesn't exist (which is what the OP suggested he does, at one point) is that we have to do these marches in the first place.

    If righteousness alone sufficed, there wouldn't be a debate in the first place.

    Like it or not, the "other side" matters. You won't make progress with back-slapping and choir-preaching.

    Only by using logic to convince fence-sitters and discredit antis will we win this fight.

  23. #23
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    bigdaddy1 wrote:
    like_the_roman wrote:
    If you're going to go through with it, then at least change the day. I know it's 'symbolic' to choose the same day that McVeigh blew up the OKC building, but
    that's not an event that open carry needs to be connected with.
    You'll only play into the hands of the people who think all gun owners are "extremists."
    I would rather you NOT speak for the entire OPEN CARRY community.

    As for your comment regarding his choice of date, many things happens through out history on any given date. You choose what you want to be remembered for. I stubbed my toe really bad on that day last year.

    The real poblem is that the news media will pick the historicalevent that best fits their agenda, and you should know that.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
    Will Rogers

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    The real problem is that the news media will pick the historicalevent that best fits their agenda, and you should know that.
    More than that, certain events are automatically more prominent in people's minds because of the period of time that they lived through.

    When "BARELY ILLEGAL" proposes for a get-together near Washington on 19 April, I immediately thought back to OKC, the Branch Davidians, and Columbine -- not the Revolutionary War (you can blame public school indoctrination for this -- my schools were always on lockdown those days and the teachers would always use the opportunity to attack gun owners and "right-wingers." But I digress.)

    CNN/ABC/CBS/*NBC will spin any sort of RKBA related stunt to show a resurgience in "right-wing" extremism, so one has to do everything to disprove that to be taken seriously in "respectible" channels. That's the way it is, unfortunately.

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    Regular Member altajava's Avatar
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    The Second Amendment March is on the same day downtown but you must go unarmed or you will be there for an extended stay.

    I do have a minor issue with this PC crap of you can't do it on this day in history because... There will always be a date on the calender that is inappropriate for this or that reason, or you will offend someone somewhere.

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