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Thread: Four Police Officers Shot and Killed at Coffee Shop

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    http://www.king5.com/news/local/Poli...-78089882.html

    Media around these parts would probably try to make a connection with this and our open carry activities. It is a frightening reminder however,that even en force, police are not capable of putting a stop to this alone.
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bad_ace's Avatar
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    You never know when or where violent crime will happen. My heart goes out to their families.

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    Now here is something to think about, what if these two armed men would have walked up and seen every day average citizens openly carrying outside this coffee shop or even inside for that matter do you think its a good possibility they would have had second thoughts or not even followed through with what they where about to do?

    Or what if they wouldn't have stopped with the officers and just started to gun down innocent people.

    whats every ones take on this? and people want to know why we choose to exercise or 2A right

    I just found this out as well but was anyone else aware that the same department also had a lone officer gunned down on Halloween while he was training a second officer i don't feel this is a coincidence sounds like they may have a pair of cop killers on there hands

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    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    Is some patrons were armed, they may have suceeded with the killing, but they would never have gotten out of there alive. My sympathies to their families
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Regular Member leoffensive's Avatar
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    woody510 wrote:
    Now here is something to think about, what if these two armed men would have walked up and seen every day average citizens openly carrying outside this coffee shop or even inside for that matter do you think its a good possibility they would have had second thoughts or not even followed through with what they where about to do?

    Or what if they wouldn't have stopped with the officers and just started to gun down innocent people.

    whats every ones take on this? and people want to know why we choose to exercise or 2A right

    I just found this out as well but was anyone else aware that the same department also had a lone officer gunned down on Halloween while he was training a second officer i don't feel this is a coincidence sounds like they may have a pair of cop killers on there hands
    i think its more likely that the two armed men would have noticed the armed citizens and not have gone through with their actions but, we dont know their motives so you cant really say for sure. but one this is for sure and that is people would much rather have armed citizens there to have some kind of fighting chance if something like this happens again

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    I don't mean to sound cold, and I don't know all the details, but it looks like the officers were in condition white. This just reinforces the fact that you need to always be aware of your surroundings, especially in public.

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    woody510 wrote:
    Now here is something to think about, what if these two armed men would have walked up and seen every day average citizens openly carrying outside this coffee shop or even inside for that matter do you think its a good possibility they would have had second thoughts or not even followed through with what they where about to do?

    Or what if they wouldn't have stopped with the officers and just started to gun down innocent people.

    whats every ones take on this? and people want to know why we choose to exercise or 2A right

    I just found this out as well but was anyone else aware that the same department also had a lone officer gunned down on Halloween while he was training a second officer i don't feel this is a coincidence sounds like they may have a pair of cop killers on there hands
    If they were able to get the drop on 4 trained professionals, I doubt any OC'ers would have had a chance.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    SouthBayr wrote:
    If they were able to get the drop on 4 trained professionals, I doubt any OC'ers would have had a chance.
    That's the one nice thing about OCing, we don't have to wear uniforms. This guy specifically targeted the police officers. It would have been great if some citizen would have stopped this murderer before he could kill these officers.

    On a related note, it's sad that OCers usually carry to protect themselves and others from people exactly like this murderer, but a lot of California police officers view us as a threat and not as an ally. We both want crime to be non-existent, police officers are definitely needed to help accomplish this goal, but armed citizens have their place as well. We need to work together to prevent tragedies like this from occurring.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    bigtoe416 wrote:
    We both want crime to be non-existent, police officers are definitely needed to help accomplish this goal...
    Cite?





    Haha, ok sorry. I just couldn't resist after getting a request for citation over a debatable, non-legal position the other day.

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    marshaul wrote:
    Cite?





    Haha, ok sorry. I just couldn't resist after getting a request for citation over a debatable, non-legal position the other day.
    Was that when you were getting kicked around in the Arizona OC Forum?

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:
    bigtoe416 wrote:
    We both want crime to be non-existent, police officers are definitely needed to help accomplish this goal...
    Cite?
    Heh...fair enough! I don't have a citation, as you might expect. I imagine armed citizens could reduce crime significantly through deterrence, but I'm fairly certain somebody would have to be paid to track down criminals that get away with crimes. So if those people are police officers, or private investigators seeking a reward, or whatever, somebody has to investigate crimes which were successful.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    yelohamr wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    Cite?





    Haha, ok sorry. I just couldn't resist after getting a request for citation over a debatable, non-legal position the other day.
    Was that when you were getting kicked around in the Arizona OC Forum?
    Actually, although that was amusing, this occurred in the thread about the Militia Movement. I was talking about racial pride being generally OK but race-based nationalism being bad, and I was asked for a cite by a budding Stormfronter.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    bigtoe416 wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    bigtoe416 wrote:
    We both want crime to be non-existent, police officers are definitely needed to help accomplish this goal...
    Cite?
    Heh...fair enough! I don't have a citation, as you might expect. I imagine armed citizens could reduce crime significantly through deterrence, but I'm fairly certain somebody would have to be paid to track down criminals that get away with crimes. So if those people are police officers, or private investigators seeking a reward, or whatever, somebody has to investigate crimes which were successful.
    I agree.

    Citizen posted in another thread an analysis of the history of American law enforcement, with focus on the Constitutionality of professional police forces.

    Very interesting reading. Recommended.

    http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

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    A little off the subject but i took a P.O.S.T PC.832 its a crash course for reserve police officers who are looking to go strait to the field it was through the sheriffs department they qualified us and everything but i remember one of the statistics that will always stand out in my mind and i will never forget. An instructor told me that something like 70% of crime goes unreported or unsolved i couldn't believe this but the instructor verified it and told us that the police wont disclose info like this to the general public there was other stuff to but that was one thing that stuck out the most

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I've failed to report a crime before. It simply isn't worth dealing with LEOs who are going to be more interested in laws you're breaking than in resolving the law broken in violation of your property. And I'm not even a criminal!

    In fact, that's one reason I'm here today, advocating proactive, armed citizenry but notably not professional police (as some of you may have noticed ).

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    Regular Member NewZealandAmerican's Avatar
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    What I have a hard time comprehending is how can all 4 cops have been taken out so swiftly by one man? Surely at least the 3rd or 4th officer could have reacted fast enough to shoot back and take the bg out! Maybe they all were a bit complacent and not using their SA (situational awareness). Anyway it is very sad what happened.
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    woody510 wrote:
    A little off the subject but i took a P.O.S.T PC.832 its a crash course for reserve police officers who are looking to go strait to the field it was through the sheriffs department they qualified us and everything but i remember one of the statistics that will always stand out in my mind and i will never forget. An instructor told me that something like 70% of crime goes unreported or unsolved i couldn't believe this but the instructor verified it and told us that the police wont disclose info like this to the general public there was other stuff to but that was one thing that stuck out the most
    Most crime goes unsolved or unreported for various reasons. I have been the victim of crimes and attempted crimes and in all cases the police do little but take a report.

    Even in the case of me being stabbed the police still said there wasn't much they could or would do.

    Instead they prefer to knock on my door and tell me I am playing COD4 too loud and hassle me when I am washing my clothes OC.

    But I think the public in truth knows that the politics of crime solving and policing are not doing the job, and that in the long run is why we are getting the pendulum swinging back in our direction. We trusted the government to reduce crime and keep us safe, they failed. . . now we want the power back.

    As for the shooting, I would give just about anything to say that these officers were targeted because they were officers. It is probably personal or gang-related. In this circumstance there would have been little that anyone could have done to prevent this tragedy, but they may have been able to prevent the escape of the perpetrators.

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    SouthBayr wrote:
    If they were able to get the drop on 4 trained professionals, I doubt any OC'ers would have had a chance.
    Actually, the "trained professionals" are notoriously bad when it comes to gun fighting. Cops generally don't do a lot of shooting; many do only the minimum required to keep their job.

    At least that's what I read here.

    For those too lazy to click and read through, they found that criminals who commit assault on police officers practiced MUCH more than the average police officer. Lots of other interesting findings in the study... stop being lazy and click over!

    I believe armed citizens are much more likely to be more enthusiastic about target shooting and training. Therefore, I believe armed citizens would be more physically (muscle memory) and mentally prepared to defend their lives.
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bad_ace's Avatar
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Actually, the "trained professionals" are notoriously bad when it comes to gun fighting. Cops generally don't do a lot of shooting; many do only the minimum required to keep their job.
    I'm not surprised. I was talking shop with two San Francisco Officers at an event they were pulling security for. When I asked them what they carried, they had no idea, not make or model. One removed the strap on his holster and lifted it out enough to catch the make

    I asked what type of ammo they preferred, they answered "what ever the department gives us". He pulled out a magazine and by the looks of it, winchester rangers FMJ.

    In this case It's obvious the officers were specifically targeted and an OCer at best might have been able to stop the shooter from leaving the scene.

    I've been involved in shootings (OEF OIF) and you'd be surprised how much can take place 'before' you react, if you react at all.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    lol@the SFPD

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    Well it was atually "2 armed men v. 4 cops" that where not on duty they where all meeting up to get coffee before they started there shift assuming they where all working the same shift becuase that's what the news report said they where probly standing around BS'in like most guys do and the gun men bursted in on them and that's how they got the drop on them it wasn't because they where untrained or not qualified they where very likely not aware of there surroundings and most likely frequented that coffee shop see humans are creatures of habit we get way to comfortable with daily life you wouldn't expect 2 armed gun men to walk into a coffee shop and start shooting at you especially if your a police officer. you also have to remember this is a small rural town outside Seattle WA.

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    woody510 wrote:
    Well it was atually "1 armed men v. 4 cops" that where not on duty they where all meeting up to get coffee before they started there shift assuming they where all working the same shift becuase that's what the news report said they where probly standing around BS'in like most guys do and the gun men bursted in on them and that's how they got the drop on them it wasn't because they where untrained or not qualified they where very likely not aware of there surroundings and most likely frequented that coffee shop see humans are creatures of habit we get way to comfortable with daily life you wouldn't expect 2 armed gun men to walk into a coffee shop and start shooting at you especially if your a police officer. you also have to remember this is a small rural town outside Seattle WA.
    Fixed it for you. It was only 1 perp.

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    When i first heard the report they said 2 sorry I was also wondering I have been looking to see what type of gun or cal. Was used does anyone know? I would think a shotgun would've been the weapon of choose but I'm not sure

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    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091130/..._officers_shot

    Investigators also examined the coffee shop for clues. Sheriff's spokesman Lt. Dave McDonald said that authorities found a handgun carried by the killer.

    "He was very versed with the weapon," Troyer said earlier. "This wasn't something where the windows were shot up and there bullets sprayed around the place. The bullets hit their targets."


    No mention of caliber, just a handgun.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:
    Citizen posted in another thread an analysis of the history of American law enforcement, with focus on the Constitutionality of professional police forces.

    Very interesting reading. Recommended.

    http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm
    That was an extremely interesting link, definitely a +1 to reading it.

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