Four Police Officers Shot and Killed at Coffee Shop

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Well it was atually "2 armed men v. 4 cops" that where not on duty they where all meeting up to get coffee before they started there shift assuming they where all working the same shift becuase that's what the news report said they where probly standing around BS'in like most guys do and the gun men bursted in on them and that's how they got the drop on them it wasn't because they where untrained or not qualified they where very likely not aware of there surroundings and most likely frequented that coffee shop see humans are creatures of habit we get way to comfortable with daily life you wouldn't expect 2 armed gun men to walk into a coffee shop and start shooting at you especially if your a police officer. you also have to remember this is a small rural town outside Seattle WA.

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woody510 wrote:

Well it was atually "1 armed men v. 4 cops" that where not on duty they where all meeting up to get coffee before they started there shift assuming they where all working the same shift becuase that's what the news report said they where probly standing around BS'in like most guys do and the gun men bursted in on them and that's how they got the drop on them it wasn't because they where untrained or not qualified they where very likely not aware of there surroundings and most likely frequented that coffee shop see humans are creatures of habit we get way to comfortable with daily life you wouldn't expect 2 armed gun men to walk into a coffee shop and start shooting at you especially if your a police officer. you also have to remember this is a small rural town outside Seattle WA.

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Fixed it for you. It was only 1 perp.

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When i first heard the report they said 2 sorry I was also wondering I have been looking to see what type of gun or cal. Was used does anyone know? I would think a shotgun would've been the weapon of choose but I'm not sure

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091130/ap_on_re_us/us_officers_shot

Investigators also examined the coffee shop for clues. Sheriff's spokesman Lt. Dave McDonald said that authorities found a handgun carried by the killer.

"He was very versed with the weapon," Troyer said earlier. "This wasn't something where the windows were shot up and there bullets sprayed around the place. The bullets hit their targets."

No mention of caliber, just a handgun.

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marshaul wrote:

Citizen posted in another thread an analysis of the history of American law enforcement, with focus on the Constitutionality of professional police forces.

Very interesting reading. Recommended.

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

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That was an extremely interesting link, definitely a +1 to reading it.

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NewZealandAmerican wrote:

What I have a hard time comprehending is how can all 4 cops have been taken out so swiftly by one man? Surely at least the 3rd or 4th officer could have reacted fast enough to shoot back and take the bg out!

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The fourth officer did return fire, which is impressive as hell.

How fast can you pull a trigger four times? That's how long it takes to deliver four head shots on four people sitting at a table.

Now, how fast can you draw and return fire while seated at a table? Especially if it's a booth.

I'm impressed that any of the cops even cleared leather, much less returned fire.

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KBCraig wrote:

NewZealandAmerican wrote:

What I have a hard time comprehending is how can all 4 cops have been taken out so swiftly by one man? Surely at least the 3rd or 4th officer could have reacted fast enough to shoot back and take the bg out!

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The fourth officer did return fire, which is impressive as hell.

How fast can you pull a trigger four times? That's how long it takes to deliver four head shots on four people sitting at a table.

Now, how fast can you draw and return fire while seated at a table? Especially if it's a booth.

I'm impressed that any of the cops even cleared leather, much less returned fire.

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Haven't heard any details, but unless you die instantly you may very well have time to draw and get off a shot before you check out. Mortally wounded means "not quite dead yet".

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bigtoe416 wrote:

marshaul wrote:

Citizen posted in another thread an analysis of the history of American law enforcement, with focus on the Constitutionality of professional police forces.

Very interesting reading. Recommended.

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

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That was an extremely interesting link, definitely a +1 to reading it.

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Glad you enjoyed that.

The guy doesn't quite square his constitutional arguments as well as I'd like with regard to originalist Federalism, but in the modern context his Constitutional arguments are very strong indeed.

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SouthBayr wrote:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091130/ap_on_re_us/us_officers_shot

Investigators also examined the coffee shop for clues. Sheriff's spokesman Lt. Dave McDonald said that authorities found a handgun carried by the killer.

"He was very versed with the weapon," Troyer said earlier. "This wasn't something where the windows were shot up and there bullets sprayed around the place. The bullets hit their targets."

No mention of caliber, just a handgun.

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On the radio I just heard they said it was a 9mm

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NewZealandAmerican wrote:

What I have a hard time comprehending is how can all 4 cops have been taken out so swiftly by one man? Surely at least the 3rd or 4th officer could have reacted fast enough to shoot back and take the bg out! Maybe they all were a bit complacent and not using their SA (situational awareness). Anyway it is very sad what happened.

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UOCers are often berated (by fellow gunowners, no less) with themonotonous argument: "A bad guy can easily get the drop on an untrained person likeYOU, and then just take your unloaded gun, or your life!"

This incidenttragically illustrates that one bad guy can not only get the drop on upwards of fourPROFESSIONALLYTRAINED individuals at the same time, but get the drop on upwards of four individuals who are carrying LOADED firearmsboth OPENLY and CONCEALED.

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And late word is that the assassin, who was ventilated today, was found in possession of a firearm belonging to one of his four (recent) victims (thanks so much, Mike Huckabee).

Time perhaps for the naysayers of UOCto concede that neitherTRAINING nor a LOADEDsidearmare a substantial defense againstsome piece of crap who is bent on murder by ambush?

I am still waiting to read the account of a UOCer who fell victim to some piece of crap who wanted the UOCer's firearm, or his/her life.

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Better to avoid making people want to assassinate you than to rely on LCC, I suppose.

Hope nobody ever has it out for me.

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Interesting perspective, Marshaul. Are you on medication? Arming citizens? Of course. Disarming police? You need to adjust your medications.

Letting you continue to speak, even though some may think you are nuts? Absolutely! :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

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this was on the Gene Burns show called up radio station and talked to him the other night so it was a 9mm the guy walked in and shot the first 2 cops in the face then the third the fourth started to wrestle with the shooter and possibly got one shot off thats why they believe he was wounded after shooting the last officer he fled the scene it was 1 Sgt. and 3 regular officers but latest news report had the shooter dead as of yesterday i believe you had to see that coming though the cops weren't going to let that guy go to trial he already had 15 convictions again him and was so mentally disturbed he had been telling people in that town and his family that he was jesus christ so if the cops didn't help him after the first three convictions then there was something flawed from the get go.

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Lead Lobber wrote:

Interesting perspective, Marshaul. Are you on medication? Arming citizens? Of course. Disarming police? You need to adjust your medications.

Letting you continue to speak, even though some may think you are nuts? Absolutely! :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

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Once again you demonstrate an inability to reach rational conclusions.

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Lead Lobber wrote:

...Letting you continue to speak, even though some may think you are nuts? Absolutely!

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Of course! After all, MOST of us think you're nuts, and we let you keep yappin' away!

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Does that make me nuts if i love the dancing Bananas??

:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

woody sings: "Peanut butter jelly time" lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3ZAGBL6UBA

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What I don't understand is, the owner of the coffee shop, is a retired law enforcement, he doesn't conceal carry? It is truely a terrible loss!!!

It will be a hard struggle to find normalcy but hope and prayer will prevail....

KAISER-MAN

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So much to comment on. I believe armed OC or CC folks would have made a difference. Either as a detterant to this miscreant or changed the odds of what would have happened and the criminal probably wouldn't have walked away. He planned this out and targeted the police, my experience OCing everyday in this state is most folks don't notice the gun on me right away. Even if he did, and targeted me, I firmly believe that would have given the cops the chance to take him out.

As it played out he shot at practically point blank range to the heads of the first few victims and actually scuffled with the last. I can gaurantee you if I or any other OC'er I know was in this shop and witnessed this happening he would have had several new cavities.

Also this being a small rural town is kind of misleading. This area is a bad neighborhood suburb of Tacoma/Stielicom area. An area I had the unfortunate misfortune of living in the late '80's. Pierce county especially this area had a ton of shows on COPs and was always full of action.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=32042&forum_id=55&highlight=tacoma+shootout

Here's an interesting thread and recap of something that happened in a place not too terribly far from this area.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=34358&forum_id=55&highlight=Lakewood+ ...a recent crime stopped by an OCer in the same general vicinity.