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Thread: Four cops ambushed in a coffee shop.

  1. #1
    Regular Member rodbender's Avatar
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    From what little is available in news reports, this is not a random act by some crazy, but a well thought out, brutal assasination. Single shooter enters coffee shop, immediately engages 4 police officers and departs, either on foot or in a stolen car found not far away (both have been reported), shooter nowhere to be seen.

    Early reports don't state whether any of the officers gets off a shot. Unfortunately all 4 were probably in condition white doing paperwork on their laptops (LEO's take note). All 4 pronounced dead at the scene. The killer had to be one cool customer to take on 4 armed officers in this manner, and score fatal hits on all before any of them could react.

    Random act? Maybe, but too much planning seems to have gone into this for it to be completely random and spur of the moment. Retaliation for a prior police involved shooting (heard of any in that area)? Gang activity? Retribution against one or more of the 4 officers? Mob hit? (Is there a mob in Washington state?) Way more to this than meets the eye.

    Hope they catch this clown quick.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Just saw TV update - no link. It is said that one of the officers got off some shots, perpetrator may be wounded, may need medical attention.

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    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
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    This is utterly tragic, and beyond words. My sympathy goes out to the officers' and their grieving families. They will all be in my prayers tonight.

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    markand wrote:
    ... The killer had to be one cool customer to take on 4 armed officers in this manner, and score fatal hits on all before any of them could react.
    That's what I was thinking, and he must've been a pro. I haven't seen anything regarding the type of weapon used, but I'm guessing it was a long gun with CQ sights to be able to kill 4 armed people, let alone cops. Who I would assume to be at least average shooters. Did they all have their backs to the door? I don't sit anywhere w/ my back to a door if I can help it.

    I hope they catch this SOB soon.
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    Regular Member Statesman's Avatar
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    Wait a minute. Where is the video tape? You can't tell me there is no footage of this guy storming into the store, or bleeding somewhere outside of the store in this day and age.

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    Regular Member david.ross's Avatar
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    As I read google news today, I seen the story. I was fairly crushed reading a monster walked in to a coffee shop to brutally murder four officers which were part of the initial set of officers to join the department.

    I hope the person is caught, the punishment should set an example such actions will not be tolerated. I'm all in support for the death penalty, upon conviction.

    My heart goes out to the families of the officers, I'm sure they're going through a hard time right now.

    Other police departments are contributing any resources they have available, and I hope the departments work efficiently together so they catch the perpetrator.
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    This is crazy. It is terrible that a person would do this to those who are sworn to do their best to protect the public at large, not an easy job either. I really hope that the BG is found rapidly and removed from the streets and public.

    You should see the discussion/******* match in the WA forum about this and certain members thoughts on the issue.

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    I have a question more like a thought.

    Isn't the typical anti-gun argument "Civilians shouldn't have guns because they are quote Not trained like the professionals such as LEO's or the Military ?" Therefore, after this tragic incident what is going to be the new excuse?

    Well haven't the last two mass shootings target those that were "Highly Trained to deal with things that us as civilians could never deal with becauseus as (Permit holders)are not in one of thosetwo catagories?" <--Please sense the sarcasm.

    So what is the new argument going to be now? Guns cause crime? Well before that guy walked into that coffee shop, there were already four guns in that shop, but weren't theyin the holsters of highly trained individuals, and since there were officers onsite and if that man had turned his rampage towards the individual citizens in that shop whose responsibity would it be to protect them?

    I'm not attacking any group such as LEO's or Military because theytruely are the hero's of this nation. I'mrather pointing out, the terrible logic that is given by folks thatare completly ignorant of how the world works.

    Anyway I'llget off my soap box because most of us already know this. Anyway, stay safe and carry always.



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    Police have a suspect they're chasing, but haven't caught him yet. News said a SWAT team entered the place they thought he was and found it empty. Not sure why he's a suspect, however. Perhaps they have security video in the coffee shop and made an ID from that. I hope so.

    I'm, well, cautious about accepting this guy as the real suspect. He's not all there mentally, if the reports are right. I'm skeptical that such a guy could successfully take on 4 uniformed, armed, presumably body armored cops and kill all 4 right on the spot. Further investigation will no doubt clear all that up.

    This is a lesson, written in the blood of these 4 officers, to never let your guard down or go into condition white. I suspect this coffee shop was a frequent stop and the officers had come to feel comfortable and safe in the shop while working on their laptops. As anybody who has a spouse with PC or Blackberry or other PDA knows, these devices can completely absorb the attention of their operator. And I mean so completely absorbed as to be utterly oblivious to surroundings. I've had people speak directly into my ear, several times even, while so absorbed and I honestly can say I never saw or heard them. Needless to say, don't let this happen to you.

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    markand wrote:
    News said a SWAT team entered the place they thought he was and found it empty.
    I spent the day on the road and listening to the radio. Radio news had shots fired and explosions reported, before the house was discovered to be empty on entry.

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    I'm active duty Army infantry on R&R from afghanistan, I live now pretty near to where the shooting took place. I used to live right by there. My only regret when I read this story, was not being there when it happend. I always carry concealed and in country we've been having fire fights at bad breath range. And if some A-hole dirtbag was gonna try taking out cops by me, he'd have a tight controlled pair in him, reguardless of however the press would rail me or charges i'd have to face for taking the shot, it's the oath we take as military ( " All enemies, foregin and domestic " )

    Justice in this case would be the guy being found and "resisting" arrest with a weapon of his own and being put down hard.

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    Sad. I just have a difficult time believing someone could do this.

    Unfortunately, I think open-carriers will suffer for this even though the perp was illegally concealed and illegally possesing. So, be alert and carefull out there!
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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Repost From the Washington site:

    FMCDH wrote:
    That being said...

    For those who somehow insist that citizens carrying (OC or CC) in this situation could not have had any effect or deterrence, you obvioulsy believe that the murderer in this scenario didn't believe the rest of the patrons and employees to be unarmed? He not only believed it, he assumed it, and rightly so in our generally disarmed society. He shot no-one else, just those officers he knew were armed, and every evidence to show that he fled as soon as he received any true resistance.

    Because the customers and employees, by circumstance or by choice, were unarmed, they were unable or unwilling to do their own civic duties by protecting their community, or themselves. And yes, every person in that store was in danger for their life, because, if a murderer is willing to shoot a police officer(s), whats one or two more Joe & Jane Schmos' for the list? I guarantee that if you ask each of them if they feared they were going to be next, they would most assuredly say yes!

    This tragedy is a direct result of only one thing, complacency! Complacency on the part of the courts, the politicians, special intrist groups like the Brady Bunch and most of all, citizens that have been brain washed by all the above to believe that the only one responsible for the protection of themselves, their fellow human beings and their communities, are the police.

    This is a dramatic punctuation to the fact that relying on the police to protect society is folly. Police are meant for two things, investigating crime and enforcing the laws, not for protecting society as a whole or stopping deadly crime in the act.

    These police were failed by their fellow citizens, and the society that has placed too much expectation on their fellow human beings of whom they have appointed.

    We have seen the direct detrimental effect of civilian disarmament in Europe and Australia. Criminals are at their most bold (and if this crime doesn't classify as bold, I don't know what does) when they have reasonable certainty that the public at large cannot or will not fight back. Civilian authorities can only respond so quickly.

    This murder is pure evidence that America is quickly becoming viewed by the criminal mind as just such a population. When the criminals begin to disregard the public at large and begin specificly targeting our appointed public servants, the symbols of our laws if you will, than that says something about the disengagement of Americans as to their responsibilities toward themselves, and each-other.

    My condolences to the families, the friends and the fellow officers of our fallen public servants, and my personal apology to each of them, on behalf of all the fallen officer's fellow citizens, who failed them.



    We all understand 'Condition White' situational awareness. The element of surprise is always with the assailant (Popular CCW doctrine notwithstanding). Two officers where shot dead before the others had time to react. One was shot as he rose to confront the assailant. 'Why?"

    Try drawing your pistol strongside sitting down, much less while sitting at a table. The 4th officer reportedly fought the perp to the door and possibly beyond before sucumbing to wounds. Helluva brave act.

    Now for the pure 'egonomic' aspect of drawing a sidearm. Why are Police Departments hidebound in requiring officers carry their sidearms 'strong side'? Fashion... tradition... or because John Wayne did it?

    OK... now draw your sidearm from a sitting position in your vehicle with a seatbelt on. OK... if you've gone thru the actual motions of doing that, I've made my point. There is no practical (or logical) reason to carry a sidearm strong-side unless you're wearing a tied down buscadero playin' Quick Draw McGraw.

    IANAL... butI was a cop. If you've just witnessed a homicide shooting and the perp still has the gun in hand... it matters not which angle the perp may be relative to you. The perp remains a threat in the commission of a felony. If you've got a shot... then SHOOT! Don't stand around mulling the legalities or sportsmanship... If you're all about that... then don't carry. I'm not advocating that anyone play 'hero'... but in this instance, an armed patron out of the focus of the perp... with the speed and sand to act might have made a difference. Nothing's 100%, 'never is.

    My deepest sympathies to the family, friends and fellow officers involve in this atrocity. How this animal is finally brought down is of no concern to me.... but 'mag dump' comes to mind.


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    Although some will likely blame the gun -- and "lax" gun control laws -- one could more easily blame Mike Huckabee for letting this Sociopath loose.

    Violent felon granted Clemency by former Governor Mike Huckabee now sought in Lakewood, WA police ambush

    By Michelle Malkin

    The man being sought by police was granted clemency by former GOP Arkansas Mike Huckabee despite his violent history and vehement protestations from prosecutors and victims’ family members.

    He was most recently in jail for alleged second-degree rape of a child.

    This isn’t Huckabee’s first Horton moment, ...

    Maurice Clemmons, the 37-year-old Tacoma man being sought for questioning in the killing of four Lakewood police officers this morning, has a long criminal record punctuated by violence, erratic behavior and concerns about his mental health.

    Nine years ago, then-Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee granted clemency to Clemmons, commuting his lengthy prison sentence over the protestations of prosecutors.

    “This is the day I’ve been dreading for a long time,” Larry Jegley, prosecuting attorney for Arkansas’ Pulaski County said Sunday night when informed that Clemmons was being sought in connection to the killings.

    Clemmons’ criminal history includes at least five felony convictions in Arkansas and at least eight felony charges in Washington. The record also stands out for the number of times he has been released from custody despite questions about the danger he posed.

    Clemmons had been in jail in Pierce County for the past several months on a pending charge of second-degree rape of a child.

    This disaster is just one of Huckabee’s ill-considered clemency legacies.

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    Conservatives hammer Mike Huckabee over shooting

    The conservative blogosphere unleashed a torrent of criticism against Mike Huckabee Monday after a man whose sentence he commuted as Arkansas governor was suspected of gunning down four police officers in Washington state over the weekend.

    “The man being sought by police was granted clemency by former GOP Arkansas Mike Huckabee despite his violent history and vehement protestations from prosecutors and victims’ family members,” wrote conservative Michelle Malkin on her widely read blog. “This disaster is just one of Huckabee’s ill-considered clemency legacies.”

    Few of Huckabee’s allies—including candidates he has endorsed for the 2010 campaign and his former campaign manager—responded to requests to speak to POLITICO about the fallout from the shooting. But on conservative blogs, Huckabee came under sustained attack.

    “Of course Huckabee couldn’t predict that the convict would shoot police officers, but the exercise of executive clemency goes right to judgment in a way that is very clearly understood by voters,” Ed Morrissey, a widely-read blogger on the conservative site Hot Air, wrote in an email. “His primary opponents will use it against him, and I'd guess that such an attack would be particularly effective with social conservatives.”

    Former Huckabee press aide Joe Carter wrote on the blog for the Institute on Religion and Public Life that the story undercuts the former governor’s strengths as a candidate.

    “Ironically, what makes Huckabee such an appealing Presidential candidate—his empathy for all people and genuine belief in the individual—is also the trait that will prevent him from ever reaching the White House,” Carter wrote. “His experiences and intuitions that served him well as a minister of the gospel were not always applicable in of governor of a state. The unfortunate reality is that for politicians, unlike pastors, there are limits to compassion.”

    Conservative blogs were not the only corner of the Internet where Huckabee took a pounding. The popular Drudge Report website provided a prominent link to a Seattle Times story on Clemmons’s disturbing criminal history accompanied by the headline, “Huckabee granted clemency to man wanted for questioning.”

    Republican operatives and politicians contacted by POLITICO said the incident is already proving to be damaging.

    One well-known GOP strategist with presidential campaign experience said the shooting is “pretty devastating” to Huckabee’s political future.


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    The lessons here are multiple as have already been mentioned. The main one I suppose is that SHTF can occure anywhere, to anyone, extremely quickly.

    The snip that Sonora Rebel posted from the Washington site pretty much says it all. This is not just a failure of a former governor and the judicial system. It's a failure of society as a whole.

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    My prediction on the Brady angle: they will say something along the lines of "even in the hands of trained professionals these guns did not save any lives. If proffessional law enforcement officers can be gunned down like this while fully armed, then much less would it avail an ordinary citizen to be armed. This incident shows that the carrying in public of firearms is only an invitation to disaster blah-de-blah-de-blah."

    Who wants to bet I am spot-on?

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    Alexcabbie wrote:
    My prediction on the Brady angle: they will say something along the lines of "even in the hands of trained professionals these guns did not save any lives. If proffessional law enforcement officers can be gunned down like this while fully armed, then much less would it avail an ordinary citizen to be armed. This incident shows that the carrying in public of firearms is only an invitation to disaster blah-de-blah-de-blah."

    Who wants to bet I am spot-on?
    I dunno, would they dare to insult their foot soldiers?

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Alexcabbie wrote:
    My prediction on the Brady angle: they will say something along the lines of "even in the hands of trained professionals these guns did not save any lives. If proffessional law enforcement officers can be gunned down like this while fully armed, then much less would it avail an ordinary citizen to be armed. This incident shows that the carrying in public of firearms is only an invitation to disaster blah-de-blah-de-blah."

    Who wants to bet I am spot-on?
    So... what would the Brady's advocate... disarming police altogether 'cause their guns are of no use? It just came over the news that a Seattle patrol cop dropped Maurice Clemmons with 'multiple shots fired'. I think my earlier'mag dump' prediction was about right. Clemmons had one of the slain officers guns on him. Unknown if he brandished it, but he failed the officers command to stop and show hands. Justice is served. Good riddance... may he burn in hell.

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    Regular Member Alexcabbie's Avatar
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    Actually quite a few of the mor radical Bradyites have advocated requiring the police turn in their firearms at the end of their shifts.

    Now you are a former LEO, Reb, as am I; and we both know what the rank and file think of that noise.

    The other sde of that coin is the attitude of LE in CC-only states: no bulges, no "printing"; and that is - as we both know - is because LE in those areas want to reserve to themselves the "privelege" of having a plainly visible weapon. Kinda hard to eexplain that culture, but you know how it works and so do I.

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    Alexcabbie wrote:
    Actually quite a few of the mor radical Bradyites have advocated requiring the police turn in their firearms at the end of their shifts.

    Now you are a former LEO, Reb, as am I; and we both know what the rank and file think of that noise.

    The other sde of that coin is the attitude of LE in CC-only states: no bulges, no "printing"; and that is - as we both know - is because LE in those areas want to reserve to themselves the "privelege" of having a plainly visible weapon. Kinda hard to eexplain that culture, but you know how it works and so do I.
    Alex,

    Are you insenuating that LEo are wanting to be the only OC'ers, to compensate for something, like .......maybe..... er...



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