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Thread: UOC alone, was cuffed,detained,put in police car and had serial run. with audio!

  1. #1
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    Last night I decided to do some UOC in my local Aliso Viejo Town center Barnes and Nobles!
    First I went to Lowes and then to the bookstore.

    I was walking around looking for a couple specific books to buy, the bookstore was pretty busy and I had many people checking out my(evil doer ) so finally I found one of the books I wanted to buy (2009 California penal code) so I sat down on the ground and started to reading.

    I was sitting by a table which had books on top, people walking by could not the my piece because it was half was hidden by the table, after about 5-10 min of reading I got this weird feeling so from time to time I peeked up. Soon my gut was right, I saw people coming toward me both sides with dark pants on so I knew what was coming.(LEO)

    They came from both sides one that spoke to me had he's hand on his gun half was drawn asked me to stand up and put he's hand under my arm helped me up( not that I needed help) First thing I said that it is on UOC he said OK but I need to check the gun!

    He took the gun pat me down, asked me for my ID I said no I won't give it to you he found it in my pocket and took the ID out, cuffed me,i asked why am I being arrested he replied I'm only being detained and took me out to the police car and put me inside.

    I kept saying that I don't consent to an ID check and I also said that you can only do a 12031 check on my gun but they replied that I could be a criminal and they need to make sure it is not loaded.

    Almost forgot that I had my empty mag inside the gun and I didn't have any bullets on me because I was out shooting the day before.

    While I was sitting in the back of the Police cruiser they ran the serial number on my gun once they found nothing (about 5 min inside the car) he let me out uncuffed me and said if I could come to the side and talk I replied firmly that I won't talk to him.
    he than put the gun back and I went back to Barnes and Nobles.
    But before I was asking for business cards which they won't give so I went back for pen and paper and got all the 3 cops' names who were involved!

    you guys should have seen the whole Bookstore was watching me getting taken out cuffed but I knew I'll be back in a matter of minutes, once I got uncuffed and went back with my (evil doer) jaws dropped!

    So I was reading they for another 30 min after the incident and walked out to go home there was a security guy outside pretty cool older guy asked me what happened I explained it to him he was kind of happy for me I could tell while I was standing there talking to him a cop drove by and stopped, was walking toward us I told him that they already checked it he said I KNOW!

    He was the sergeant their supervisor he was unbelievably nice and understanding he said he informed them about the UOC and will talk about it more, he asked me what my mission was, asked for a pamphlet and just chatted for 5 - 10 min and I asked him if I come back will they handle it differently next time he said yes and he will talk to them.

    What do you guys think I could or should do?
    I know they violated many of my rights especially running my serial number and detained me and cuff me!

    Best thing is that i had my recorder running!

    http://www.ziddu.com/download/755062...ycops.wav.html


  2. #2
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    I would say file an FOIA and file a complaint. Even though they have qualified immunity they ought to know these laws with all of the publicity lately. I don't say file a complaint because these are bad cops but because it willCYA and ensures training will be done as the SGT. says. I believe I heard before that a FOIA cost some money so let me know if you need help with that and I will do what I can.

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    It sort of ended well, but NO BULLETS?

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    I will file a complaint but what would the FOIA do? Could a lawyer get anywhere with this case?

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    wolfeinstein wrote:
    Last night I decided to do some UOC in my local Aliso Viejo Town center Barnes and Nobles!
    First I went to Lowes and then to the bookstore.

    I was walking around looking for a couple specific books to buy, the bookstore was pretty busy and I had many people checking out my(evil doer ) so finally I found one of the books I wanted to buy (2009 California penal code) so I sat down on the ground and started to reading.

    I was sitting by a table which had books on top, people walking by could not the my piece because it was half was hidden by the table, after about 5-10 min of reading I got this weird feeling so from time to time I peeked up. Soon my gut was right, I saw people coming toward me both sides with dark pants on so I knew what was coming.(LEO)

    They came from both sides one that spoke to me had he's hand on his gun half was drawn asked me to stand up and put he's hand under my arm helped me up( not that I needed help) First thing I said that it is on UOC he said OK but I need to check the gun!

    He took the gun pat me down, asked me for my ID I said no I won't give it to you he found it in my pocket and took the ID out, cuffed me,i asked why am I being arrested he replied I'm only being detained and took me out to the police car and put me inside.

    I kept saying that I don't consent to an ID check and I also said that you can only do a 12031 check on my gun but they replied that I could be a criminal and they need to make sure it is not loaded.

    Almost forgot that I had my empty mag inside the gun and I didn't have any bullets on me because I was out shooting the day before.

    While I was sitting in the back of the Police cruiser they ran the serial number on my gun once they found nothing (about 5 min inside the car) he let me out uncuffed me and said if I could come to the side and talk I replied firmly that I won't talk to him.
    he than put the gun back and I went back to Barnes and Nobles.
    But before I was asking for business cards which they won't give so I went back for pen and paper and got all the 3 cops' names who were involved!

    you guys should have seen the whole Bookstore was watching me getting taken out cuffed but I knew I'll be back in a matter of minutes, once I got uncuffed and went back with my (evil doer) jaws dropped!

    So I was reading they for another 30 min after the incident and walked out to go home there was a security guy outside pretty cool older guy asked me what happened I explained it to him he was kind of happy for me I could tell while I was standing there talking to him a cop drove by and stopped, was walking toward us I told him that they already checked it he said I KNOW!

    He was the sergeant their supervisor he was unbelievably nice and understanding he said he informed them about the UOC and will talk about it more, he asked me what my mission was, asked for a pamphlet and just chatted for 5 - 10 min and I asked him if I come back will they handle it differently next time he said yes and he will talk to them.

    What do you guys think I could or should do?
    I know they violated many of my rights especially running my serial number and detained me and cuff me!

    Best thing is that i had my recorder running!

    http://www.ziddu.com/download/755062...ycops.wav.html
    I can't get that file to download or play, can you attach it in mp3 or .wav format. If not, can you email it to me....address in profile. Thanks
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    An FOIA will get you the 911 calls, Radio traffic anything that pertains to your incident I believe.

    My personal opinion is not to sue on the first incident as it was probably just ignorance on their part but if they do it again and you have already filed a complaint then you have more grounds for a law suit. JMO and what I plan on doing.
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    I agree with you totally their supervisor was very nice as you can hear in the audio!
    If you can help me with the complain I'd appreciate it!

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    yeah give me your address! I'll send it to you!

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    wolfeinstein wrote:
    I will file a complaint but what would the FOIA do? Could a lawyer get anywhere with this case?
    FOIA (or as it is known here in Calif, a Public Records Act request) can get you the information that was recorded from the 911 call, to the dispatch recordings to the field interview information.

    A laywer isnt likely to do much with this without your financial backing.If you are not funded as has been repeatedly recommended, I would chalk this up as a public education experience. Returning to what you were doing before you were disturbed was an essential element here-even to the surprise of bookstore customers.

    In spite of the lack of an immediate legal remedy, you should still file a complaint detailing the repeated violations of your rights. You may want to consult PullNShoot25 for formattingthis as he has had a similar experience. You will want to cite all applicable case law and penal code where relevant.

    It is unfortunate that you chose not to have ammunition or a friendly witness with you. Having no ammunition on you makes it appear that this has nothing to do with self defense- and that you are simply making yourself a cop magnet with other intentions.

    I attempted to d/l the audio and was unable to. Under the mistaken immpression that I had to view the pop up to complete the d/l I ended up with four advertisments for screensavers which locked up my system. I wont try to d/l it againunless it is hosted in a trustworthy location.
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    After listening to the audio, I think you should definitely file a complaint for the illegal seizure of your identification and illegal seizure of your weapon for more than performing an (e) check.

    However, just as a note, when they were first questioning you and asked if you had ID, you said you didn't have any ID - which means that even though it may have just been an accident on your part, you lied to the police by saying you had no ID (even though you didn't have to produce it). You later corrected by saying you had ID but would not surrender it, but just note that you should make every effort not to lie to the police.

  11. #11
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    i was going to leave it in the car and i thought i did after i said i didnt and when he pat me down i realized i had my wallet with me!

  12. #12
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    I will send you the audio through e-mail or if you can give me a site where i could upload it!

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    Don't overlook that the police mighthave been told something in the 911 call, or from the dispatcher to the officers, that could give them RAS for a detention. With the (e)check being only a secondary aspect of the stop.

    If the detainee complains about exceeding the (e)check, but it turns out there were legal grounds for a detention, the complaint will be nullified.

    What I'm really saying is that we don't know yet for sure that he has more than just moral ground for a complaint. We don't yet really know the police violated his 4A rights according to the law.

    This is why the phone recordings and radio traffic are important.

    Realize RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion) is founded on not so much whether thedetainee was actually doing anything illegal, as whatinformation the LEO had--based on the info the LEO had, was it reasonable to be suspicious? See Terry vs Ohio for the fundamentals, although it takes a few more court opinions to fully round out the whole story on RAS.

    Terry vs Ohio: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...2_0001_ZO.html
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    It is outrageous that cops making nearly 100K a year would not read there own training bulletin (Im assuming Orange County Sheriff's Dept), and would be so poorly supervised and trained that 3 deputy sheriff's would not know the law correctly between them. I agree not to threaten to sue. But I would start writing out the formal complaint against those deputies tonight, and drop it by the Aliso Sheriff' station post hast tomorrow. This will put the OCSD on formal notice that physical actions against you, and the illegal seizure and search of your id, and gun serial number (a "968" is a records check)will not be tolorated. The comment "we will figure out who you are" BS etc, is crap. For the sake of all of us, don't let this go by without action. Also when they failed to give you their names initially when you asked, I am sure they violated some agency rule . The "if you get a lawyer you can look it up" comment is not what a officer is supposed to do.
    You did a great job of handling yourself, they were not very professional, and them telling/warning you not to carry without a magazine? They must be making new law as they go. The sergeant realizes the mess his deputies made and is probably hoping like hell all his guys are not getting complaints(or lawsuits) against them, which they all deserve. Nice job for staying cool and calm.

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    I fully support a FOIA request and a formal complaint. If it is found that the LEO had RAS according to the call then good on them for doing their job and nothing bad will happen to them. Now if the caller lied to give them RAS then get them on a false police report. If the caller only reported he has a gun on his hip then a legal activity was reported and didn't warrant detainment.

    I know wolf and do not believe he was doing anything that was giving the LEO RAS. Also in the audio the LEO tried to use the argument that they didn't know if wolf was a criminal or not and that was their RAS. Great now we can be stopped for walking down the street.
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  16. #16
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    Not the best, but not the worst. Cuffing you up? Please! At least you got an assurance from the Sergeant that he would speak to his employees, and teach them some manners.

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    Lomic wrote:
    After listening to the audio, I think you should definitely file a complaint for the illegal seizure of your identification and illegal seizure of your weapon for more than performing an (e) check.

    However, just as a note, when they were first questioning you and asked if you had ID, you said you didn't have any ID - which means that even though it may have just been an accident on your part, you lied to the police by saying you had no ID (even though you didn't have to produce it). You later corrected by saying you had ID but would not surrender it, but just note that you should make every effort not to lie to the police.
    IIRC it is only against the law to lie to Federal officers. Unless something has changed you can lie to a cop just like he can lie to you.

    Besides, you have a recording where they asked you for ID which you are not obligated to provide. . . if they search you illegally to obtain ID and then charge you for lying how do they expect to get the charge to stick?

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    Several things...

    1) No bullets? Really?

    2) Cops can't break leather for an E-check. Make sure you mention that.

    Everything else seems to be good. When the audio download works let me know so that I can listen to it and critique further.

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    pullnshoot25 wrote:
    Several things...

    1) No bullets? Really?

    2) Cops can't break leather for an E-check. Make sure you mention that.

    Everything else seems to be good. When the audio download works let me know so that I can listen to it and critique further.
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    Break leather is pull a gun.

    12031 check is an "inspection," not a "detainment" and just because one is armed does not mean he is dangerous. A guy reading a book is as innocuous as someone eating an ice cream cone.

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    Gotcha thanks. I love eating ice cream while UOCing its just funny or when my wife asks me to hold her purse for a second LMAO.
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  22. #22
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    chewy352 wrote:
    ...Even though they have qualified immunity they ought to know these laws with all of the publicity lately...
    Why would they have qualified immunity? Terry v Ohio is well-settled law, and even the CA Court of Appeals stated 12031 allows only a non-intrusive examination of the firearm, not a detention (though this will not hold up under scrutiny of a higher court, nor in any federal court).

    These officers are personally liable both civilly and criminally for their actions when violating settled law.

    I would start with a FOIA request. This is the first step because once a complaint is filed, most the info you want will be legally off-limits due to employee privacy laws since the issue becomes disciplinary. The trick with FOIA requests is to ask for "access" to the records. They have to provide free access to records during business hours so you can determine what records you want to have copied/duplicated. They can charge you for any reasonable costs associated with copying. In my case they simply gave me copies of all records for free, rather than allowing me access to them before making copies. On the high end, I'd say I might have had to pay $75 for all the stuff they gave me, if they had chose to charge me (though I probably wouldn't have needed all the info, so I would have narrowed that down to $20-$50).

    Next file a complaint with their Internal Affairs department. I don't care how much brass wants to kiss your ass, the best way to make sure your complaint is taken seriously and creates a solid paper trail is to make an IA complaint. Send copies of the complaint to the District Attorney and your nearest FBI field office. The DA is required to be involved to some degree in the investigation of possible criminal actions by officers in their jurisdiction. The FBI may or may not be obligated, but I've heard this falls under their jurisdiction as well, and at the very least you may get them to open a file, which means more paper trail in case of further issues.

    As for legal options... I believe you would be within reason to file a police report. Technically the officers were acting beyond their legal authority, so some crimes did occur. The fact that you were released after 5-10 minutes, and your property was returned, doesn't negate the fact these crimes occurred. (Imagine if I were to have a half-drawn gun in my hand, order you around, take your property, confine you against your will, and then dust you off and send you on your merry way...)

    I doubt the DA will ever pick up the charges in a case like this, but you could at least make them make a paper trail documenting the crimes of brandishing, kidnapping, theft, etc. This may come in handy if anything like this happens again.

    Your other legal option is to file civil (tort) suit. This means claiming damages, which in your case would be pretty hard to prove, and by your own description, would be fairly minor. I suppose you could figure out what your time is worth and sue them in small claims court... but I don't think this is a viable option.

    Another option is to get an attorney, fork out a bunch of cash (or get one willing to work on contingency), and drag the cop(s) into federal court. In federal court, their CA-legislated "right" to "examine" your firearm doesn't exist. The officers will have to find a different excuse for violating the 4th Amendment, or face the music. If you win, you could get a significant settlement (because they can add punitive damages - unlike a tort suit). Also, in federal court, the loser has to pay the winner's attorney fees... so if you lose you might find yourself in debt to the state to the tune of several hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    You may try contacting the ACLU. They claim to be a rights advocacy litigation group. However, to date I've heard that each state has their own chapter, and CA's ACLU isn't gun-friendly. So, I wouldn't hold your breath, but if enough of us hound them, maybe when "bearing" arms is a right they'll actually support it in this state.

    (Sorry for the lengthy post... I suppose I should probably make a how-to thread so I can simply say, "go to this link if you want my opinion on how to proceed and what your rights may be.")
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    Yeah i was thinking about getting a lawyer but i don't know how would this hold up in Federal Court.

    I will file for FOIA for sure and file a complain and send one to the District Attorney and to the FBI.

    Reminding you guys i have never done this so i will need some help.

    How do i go about filing for FOIA?
    After i done that i will write up a complaint and will need help editing that.

    We need to stand up for this, so police in California will be more educated and will respect our rights more.


    So what should i start with?

  24. #24
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    A technical correction... FOIA is a federal act, and doesn't apply in this case. However, CA has it's own Public Records Act, which serves the same purpose. (In my previous post the suggestions I make are based on making a PRA, not a FOIA, request.)

    To start, you'll want to go to your local PD's website and search for a form, or simply call/visit the Records Department. Tell them you'd like to request records, and ask if they have a form for such requests, or if a typed letter will do.

    Be detailed in what you're asking for access to. Simply asking for "everything related to this incident" isn't good enough. Itemize and list everything you want: any 9-1-1 or non-emergency dispatch call audio recordings, the dispatch log, recordings of radio communications, copies of reports filed (if any), copies of any Field Identification(FID) cards filled out on you, copies of any non-verbal communications regarding the incident, including electronic communications (e-mail, etc - some departments have a sort of Instant Messaging interface), any audio or video recordings from the scene of the incident, such as car cameras/microphones, or officer-carried recording devices... you get the point...

    Be VERY clear that you are only requesting access to the records so you can decide what records you need copied. Under CA PRA law, they must make the records available at their regular records office during regular business hours FREE of charge.

    Once you decide what you want to pay for, you may have to make another written request - again, be as detailed as possible. They have 10 days from the date of your request to fulfill their legal obligation. They have the option to charge you, but have to give you an itemized bill. Expect to be charged a per page cost on printed documents, a per tape/disc charge on audio/video, and a per hour rate for the person doing the copying.

    Some departments seem to have a policy of refusing to cooperate with these requests. If they don't cooperate, you may have to get an attorney and sue them for failing to comply. (I would also notify the DA and FBI if the department fails to comply with PRA law, though this may do nothing but create that paper trail...)

    Hope this helps. If you want, I'd be happy to proof-read your draft. I've been down this road before, so I may be able to help you catch mistakes I made my first go-round.
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    Ok thanks i keep you updated!

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