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Thread: Calguns OC/UOC Wiki

  1. #1
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    So I have been asked to spearhead the UOC wiki page for the Calguns Wiki and I could use some help in undertaking this project. I have a decent start but more needs to be added, edited, clarified, etc. This will be a way for us to conduct outreach to a great many people, not just Calgunners.

    If you want to join the project, please email me at trackerpacker@gmail.com



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    Count me in, I've always wanted to edit a wiki page, and now there's one I know something about!

    (Queue music: Al Yankovich's "White and Nerdy")

    E-mail sent.
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  3. #3
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    The account is a GoogleDoc so you will have to (potentially) sign up for an account.

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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    I'm down with helping too.

  5. #5
    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    I'd like to help how i can.
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  6. #6
    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    emailed...

    Shouldn't this bea full OC wiki? as in not just UOC?

  7. #7
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    mjones wrote:
    emailed...

    Shouldn't this bea full OC wiki? as in not just UOC?
    Pretty sure the intent is to make a California-oriented open carry wiki... at least that's the way I'm approaching it... I view it as a way to put every pertinent topic we've discussed here into a 1-page nutshell.

    Someone let me know if I'm doing it wrong!
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  8. #8
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    great - somebody in California needs to go to a law library and photo copy the 1968 AG opinion on open carry, pdf it, and link to it from the wiki - this AG opinion, cited by the court in People v. Knight explains why the Cal. state ban on shooting on roads does not make rural roads prohibited areas within the meaning of Section 12031.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    great - somebody in California needs to go to a law library and photo copy the 1968 AG opinion on open carry, pdf it, and link to it from the wiki - this AG opinion, cited by the court in People v. Knight explains why the Cal. state ban on shooting on roads does not make rural roads prohibited areas within the meaning of Section 12031.
    How would such a thing be located once at the library?

    Please forgive my ignorance.

  10. #10
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    pullnshoot25 wrote:
    So I have been asked to spearhead the UOC wiki page for the Calguns Wiki and I could use some help in undertaking this project. I have a decent start but more needs to be added, edited, clarified, etc. This will be a way for us to conduct outreach to a great many people, not just Calgunners.

    If you want to join the project, please email me at trackerpacker@gmail.com

    I'm in. but UOC only? What about LOC?
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

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    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    marshaul wrote:
    How would such a thing be located once at the library?

    Please forgive my ignorance.
    Ask for a book of AG opinions from california - you might have to go to a Cal. law school but many courthouses have librairies. You could aslo ask the Ag office for a copy - maybe they will give it to you?

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    How would such a thing be located once at the library?

    Please forgive my ignorance.
    Ask for a book of AG opinions from california - you might have to go to a Cal. law school but many courthouses have librairies.* You could aslo ask the Ag office for a copy - maybe they will give it to you?
    There's a big law library at the civic center / courthouse here in SF. That ought to do.

  13. #13
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    I'll try to call around tomorrow to see if any libraries nearby have the opinion

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    marshaul wrote:
    How would such a thing be located once at the library?

    Please forgive my ignorance.
    I hear rumors of libraries employing people who do stuff like organize and catalog the contents of the library. If such a person exists, (s)he might be able to direct you in your journey.



    I still have trouble believing this stuff isn't on the interweb somewhere... looks like one of us is gonna have to venture outside of their house... NOT IT!
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  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    lol I'm going to head downtown tomorrow or the day after anyway. I can try then.

    And, yes, the notion of asking had occurred to me... but it's still alien not using the internet to find information! :shock:

  16. #16
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    The law library has it behind their desk, the address is 401 Van Ness, 4th floor. Their hours are 8:30 to 5.

    If I don't hear that you got it Marshaul then I'll go photocopy it on Thursday.

    ETA: Here is the citation: 51 Ops.Cal.Atty.Gen. 197 (1968). I believe that is volume 51, page 197.

  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Sorry, I didn't make it there in time. I drove by on my way to get food, but it was already 4:55.

    Looks like you're up.

    Let me know if you don't go. I'll go on Friday if not.

  18. #18
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    I have it right here, but everybody will have to wait until I'm in front of a pdf worthy photocopy machine.

    The conclusions of the opinion are:

    1. The term "firearm" as used in PC 12031 includes rifles and shotguns.
    2. PC 12031 does not prohibit the carrying of a rifle or shotgun with unexpended shells or cartridges in the magazine on a public road in an unincorporated area where there are no local ordinances or other laws or regulations prohibiting the discharge of firearms.
    3. PC 374c does make every "public road or highway" a "prohibited area" as defined in section 12031.
    4. The term "public street" as used in section 12031 is not synonymous with "public road or highway" as used in PC 374c.
    5. The "safety zone" described in FGC 3004 is a "prohibited area" as defined in section 12031, but carrying of loaded weapons is proscribed therein only when it coincides with a "public place."

    I believe conclusion 2 was what we cared about, so here's the analysis (bold is my emphasis):

    Question No. 2 requests an opinion whether section 12031 prohibits the carrying of a loaded firearm on a public road in an unincorporated area. We conclude that section 12031 does not prohibit the carrying of loaded firearms on such public ways. For the reasons set forth in our answer to question No. 4, the term "public streets" in section 12031(a) must be given a narrow construction. There is a distinction between "public roads" and "public streets" which is discussed more fully below. The proscriptions of section 12031 are therefore not applicable to "public roads" because they are not "public streets" as that term is used in section 12301 (footnote: The carrying of a rifle or shotgun in a vehicle with an unexpended round in the chamber is prohibited on "public highways" by Fish and Game Code section 2006, which provides in part: "It is unlawful to possess a loaded rifle or shotgun in any vehicle...which is standing on or along or is being driven on or along any public highway or other way open to the public." "A rifle or shotgun shall be deemed loaded...when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in the firing chamber but not when the only cartridges or shells are in the magazine.")

    ETA: Typos...lemme know if there are any more.

  19. #19
    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    bigtoe416 wrote:
    "A rifle or shotgun shall be deemed loaded...when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in the firing chamber but not when the only cartridges or shells are in the magazine.")
    Too bad that doesn't apply to pistols.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

  20. #20
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    Here's the PDF of the AG opinion.

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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    bigtoe416 wrote:
    Here's the PDF of the AG opinion.
    Thank you!

    Wow. Couldn't be more confusing. The response regarding 374c contradicts itself repeatedly. I am more confused than ever.

    It states that 374c makes public roads "prohibited areas" but that this does not trigger the 12031 loaded violation. WTF.

    ETA: OK. After repeated readings, it's starting to make some kind of sense. 374c prohibits shooting on "public roads or highways". Then they posit that "public roads or highways" only means roads inside unincorporated towns and villages. So 374c only applies inside towns, and not on the open highways.


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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    Upon further reading, I conclude what I had previously concluded about National Forests was correct, that any area in the NF where shooting is prohibited (per 36 CFR 261.10 (d) or 36 CFR 261.58), 12031 triggers, and loading is illegal.

    I believe Mike, you have disagreed with me in this particular area? Perhaps specifically with regards to roads in the NF? While you are indeed correct with respect to 374c country roads and highways, this is not the same as the NF restrictions.

    The AG opinion states the following, more than once, "for the proscriptions of section 12031 to be applicable, there must be a concurrence of "prohibited area" and "public place".

    All of the NF lands are a "public place". And the areas where shooting is prohibited are "prohibited areas" (i.e. within 150 yards of any residence, building, campsite, or developed site, and on or across a road or body of water). The NF shooting prohibition is not just for "public roads or highways" as defined for CA PC 374c, but any/all roads in the NF.

    I believe the other area of disagreement was that only a local ordinance could trigger the "prohibited area" language. We may still have to disagree on this. To me it's clear that the word "local" is not relevant here. The AP opinion states, "where there is no local ordinance or other laws or regulations". To me, "other laws or regulations" is separate from "local ordinance" and the word "local" only applies to "ordinance", and not "other laws or regulations". Again, this just means that no-shooting areas in the NF do trigger 12031.





  23. #23
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    MudCamper wrote:
    bigtoe416 wrote:
    Here's the PDF of the AG opinion.
    Thank you!
    +1

  24. #24
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    MudCamper wrote:
    374c prohibits shooting on "public roads or highways". Then they posit that "public roads or highways" only means roads inside unincorporated towns and villages. So 374c only applies inside towns, and not on the open highways.
    Ah, but the state statute cited by the Ag opinion making shooting unlawful in villages was subsequently repealed, hence the case law that ays you can open carry on roads and in banks in unincorporated areas unless the County has bannd shooting.

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    MudCamper wrote:
    The AP opinion states, "where there is no local ordinance or other laws or regulations". To me, "other laws or regulations" is separate from "local ordinance" and the word "local" only applies to "ordinance", and not "other laws or regulations".
    But see US v. Small (convictions does not include foreign convictions. What is Calif. law on the meaning of "law" if not clearly stated? Does it mean federal law? Mexican law? An order by a high official of a national Forest?

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